Don't tell me what to do (I got my own idea)

[Benedict]

An orchestra is comprised of individuals. Sometimes they play at the same time, other times they play solo, or in the clear.
There are solid artistic reasons why people specifically want to hire Rinat Ibragimov to play double bass in their orchestra

Simply playing notes other people write, in the context of a conductors interpretation of the whole arrangement, doesn't take away from the individual instrumentalist's emotional connection to the piece, or their own interpretation of what the composer and conductor are requiring. It's not a preclusive situation.

Thanks but you really don't have to educate me on how an orchestra works per se.. I saw them working on a daily basis for more than ten years.

If they are able to push the buttons the conductor and/or composer want - sure they'll choose them. They don't choose them for their personal artistic vision - just their skill in implementing a certain one. They can play a melody bittersweet even if they would rather play it uplifting themselves. And you keep ignoring the point that they can also do it when they have NO "emotional connection" to the piece at all - it is and stays a technical thing. They need *technique* to implement the artistic vision, they don't need an artistic vision for the piece *themselves* - thats even somewhat of a hindrance and costs time and money when they keep discussing with the conductor..

Having known some orchestral players (not to mention my Fatter was a Cathedral organist), Normen is spot on. The Conductor (think Karajan) is the Artist and players exactly that.

As suggested before have a full watch of Deep Purple's "Concerto for Band & Orchestra" and watch the faces and body language of the orchestral players. you will learn a lot about the roles of musicians, politics, the lure of cash and a tremendously adventurous piece of work.

[Emerton]

An orchestra is comprised of individuals. Sometimes they play at the same time, other times they play solo, or in the clear.
There are solid artistic reasons why people specifically want to hire Rinat Ibragimov to play double bass in their orchestra

Simply playing notes other people write, in the context of a conductors interpretation of the whole arrangement, doesn't take away from the individual instrumentalist's emotional connection to the piece, or their own interpretation of what the composer and conductor are requiring. It's not a preclusive situation.

Thanks but you really don't have to educate me on how an orchestra works per se.. I saw them working on a daily basis for more than ten years.

Key word "watched". You were not performing with them. Even so, that you have walked away voicing the opinion you are shows a profound misunderstanding of classical musicians.

If they are able to push the buttons the conductor and/or composer want - sure they'll choose them. They don't choose them for their personal artistic vision - just their skill in implementing a certain one. They can play a melody bittersweet even if they would rather play it uplifting themselves. And you keep ignoring the point that they can also do it when they have NO "emotional connection" to the piece at all - it is and stays a technical thing. They need *technique* to implement the artistic vision, they don't need an artistic vision for the piece *themselves* - thats even somewhat of a hindrance and costs time and money when they keep discussing with the conductor..

From what you're writing it would seem you have a fundamental misunderstanding about music. I don't know what you create, but if you honestly can't hear a person's heart and soul in their musical expression, and tell the difference between an individual phoning it in, and feeling the piece, I can't help you. The professional will find a way to find some sort of emotional resonance with a piece or a song, even if there's a lot in there they cannot relate to. It may simple be in relation to joy in playing their instrument, whatever, each person will find their own way. But to suggest any classical orchestral musician is just "pushing buttons" shows substantial misunderstanding of the craft.

[Emerton]

Hi Emerton

Thanks for apologizing. I accept that you meant no offence.

Please understand that I wrote nothing to disagree with what you had written in at least your last two posts (preceding my first post) so your rely was taken by me as offensive as you took things I said apart and reconstructed them in a way not intended or presented. The last person who did this even admitted he did this but not that he was wrong in he precis of my point. So I am still a little sore from that.

Society (and the internet in particular) seems to have lost the correct ways of discussing and it leaves people feeling offended (as I almost have several times in the last few months over these events). Now please understand I also have Aspergers so a fact is a fact and I am littoral, long-winded and generally very studied in what I write. That is never meant as a put down to anyone - even tho it seems some choose to take it that way (no I can't and won't change for you).

To explain, as you asked; I created a separation of the two tasks a musician performs:

a) to play what is written - hopefully well and with feeling or he/she is indeed a poor player. There is no insult in this unless you consider all technicians (like mechanics or lab workers) to be an insulting activity.
b) to create new artistic forms of expression which can range from wild and crazy challenging to saying "I Love You" in a standard Pop progression using a 909 sample and AutoTune.

Now reality is that not all people who play a musical instrument want to compose or even put their own spin on a piece they play, either for themselves or the band leader. Personally I don't quite get those people but they equally don't understand how I can be a composer without really knowing how to even play Happy Birthday or Swans On A Lake.

Now again seeing you asked; disagreeing is not offensive per say but the way that the disagreement is presented has a great impact on how the opposing point of view is taken. You can say something like I have a different point of view from person X and lay out your case but if you quote all or part of what they said and then write what comes off as a put-down then you have created pain for the person you challenge and ultimately yourself.

The way Normen responded by taking my idea and expanding on it is the positive way of doing it in a discussion. It is ok to pick apart a longer or multi-point reply as you did but take extreme care as commonly that means that you are spitting the points instead of taking the reply as the whole as it is intended. Otherwise it is like taking offense at one word in a whole book and slamming the author for all his points - as is commonly happening on the internet.This places the original author in an impossible position as to reply to "fools" easily leaves one looking like the fool, especially when the fools play gang-beating as is also common online (even occasionally in this form).

Some of my best friends have Aspergers. All good friend. Thanks for your explanation.

[Emerton]

An orchestra is comprised of individuals. Sometimes they play at the same time, other times they play solo, or in the clear.
There are solid artistic reasons why people specifically want to hire Rinat Ibragimov to play double bass in their orchestra

Simply playing notes other people write, in the context of a conductors interpretation of the whole arrangement, doesn't take away from the individual instrumentalist's emotional connection to the piece, or their own interpretation of what the composer and conductor are requiring. It's not a preclusive situation.

Thanks but you really don't have to educate me on how an orchestra works per se.. I saw them working on a daily basis for more than ten years.

If they are able to push the buttons the conductor and/or composer want - sure they'll choose them. They don't choose them for their personal artistic vision - just their skill in implementing a certain one. They can play a melody bittersweet even if they would rather play it uplifting themselves. And you keep ignoring the point that they can also do it when they have NO "emotional connection" to the piece at all - it is and stays a technical thing. They need *technique* to implement the artistic vision, they don't need an artistic vision for the piece *themselves* - thats even somewhat of a hindrance and costs time and money when they keep discussing with the conductor..

Having known some orchestral players (not to mention my Fatter was a Cathedral organist), Normen is spot on. The Conductor (think Karajan) is the Artist and players exactly that.

As suggested before have a full watch of Deep Purple's "Concerto for Band & Orchestra" and watch the faces and body language of the orchestral players. you will learn a lot about the roles of musicians, politics, the lure of cash and a tremendously adventurous piece of work.

I went into the middle and checked it, and I didn't see players phoning it in... even if I looked at their faces and didn't just use my ears.
I saw and heard people into it enough to perform with conviction. It's just within classical music's culture, not rock and roll's.
( I actually find the faux "emotions" of rock guitarists less believable than the authenticity of a stony faced cellist)
It still doesn't change what I'm saying though. Having a different mode of expression, or a different vehicle, doesn't mean one isn't expressing within that context.

[normen]

Emerton, you keep missing the point and you make it quite obvious you do - nobody ever said that classical musicians are not artists. Just that their job when sitting in an orchestra is NOT bringing in an artistic vision but bringing the technique to implement one.

[Emerton]

Emerton, you keep missing the point and you make it quite obvious you do - nobody ever said that classical musicians are not artists. Just that their job when sitting in an orchestra is NOT bringing in an artistic vision but bringing the technique to implement one.

You've called them factory workers, button pushers and technicians... that's what I'm responding to.

And you're missing the point that there's a difference between macro and micro, and that one person having an artistic vision for the whole, doesn't negate another person having an artistic vision for their included component. We're all just cogs in the wheel of society, but how we individually spend each passing moment matters. An orchestra is the sum of it's parts. Each individual note needs to be played with enough passion and conviction by each person for the whole thing to sound great. If a player is off pitch, or out of time, or lazy, or rushed, or inattentive, it affects the whole. It's the same for a choir, an orchestra, a band, or any other ensemble.

The artistic expression for one's micro role differs from that of a macro vision, but it's still artistic expression.

People have also said, a language is defined by whether you can lie in it. If a musician can communicate anger, without feeling angry - essentially lying - it shows they are actually intentionally communicating, not just "being". Communicating musical expression is artistry.

[normen]

Being on pitch, on time and attentive isn't making you more of an artist, its making you a good player. Mastering your instrument is an art in itself but you can't just put writing, arranging and putting together a whole opus on the same level as playing a part in it. If you are one of those musicians in an orchestra I can assure you - all your conductors hated you.

And not its not the same in a band and an orchestra - a rock band is exactly made from the artistic vision of its single members - you replace a guitarist and you basically get a completely different band even if its the same songs - rock solos are MADE to have the guitarist show HIS vision of what that solo should be - add a few notes, play something completely different - that is good things in a rock band. In an orchestra that is a complete no-go.

So as I am seeing you substantially "misunderstanding the craft" as well now I guess theres nothing more to say as you said the same about me already. Have a good day.

[Emerton]

Being on pitch, on time and attentive isn't making you more of an artist, its making you a good player. Mastering your instrument is an art in itself but you can't just put writing, arranging and putting together a whole opus on the same level as playing a part in it. If you are one of those musicians in an orchestra I can assure you - all your conductors hated you.

And not its not the same in a band and an orchestra - a rock band is exactly made from the artistic vision of its single members - you replace a guitarist and you basically get a completely different band even if its the same songs - rock solos are MADE to have the guitarist show HIS vision of what that solo should be - add a few notes, play something completely different - that is good things in a rock band. In an orchestra that is a complete no-go.

So as I am seeing you substantially "misunderstanding the craft" as well now I guess theres nothing more to say as you said the same about me already. Have a good day.

No, you do have a misunderstanding of music. There are many bands that do not work in the way you describe, driven by the vision of a single visionary, with the players more like those in an orchestra. Many many bands are not democracies, and players have changed without the overall sound of the band changing. Yes even guitarists.

What you're doing is elevating your own preferences above others. Even by saying one can't compare a macros vision to a micro one, despite the former including the latter, means you'e comparing apples with apple-fibre.

[normen]

No, you do have a misunderstanding of music. There are many bands that do not work in the way you describe, driven by the vision of a single visionary, with the players more like those in an orchestra. Many many bands are not democracies, and players have changed without the overall sound of the band changing. Yes even guitarists.

What you're doing is elevating your own preferences above others. Even by saying one can't compare a macros vision to a micro one, despite the former including the latter, means you'e comparing apples with apple-fibre.

Oh, now I completely misunderstand music, eh? You still completely misunderstand the point of the discussion, I didn't elevate any genre or performer over another, nor did anyone else. Its about making a distinction. You're just mincing words and simultaneously degrade all technicians and artisans to mere "button pushers" as you like to call them.

And btw, lol - how can it be the bands didn't change their sound? So these people are just button pushers then? You are so eager to disprove anything I say that you wreck your own train of argumentantion - thats pretty hilarious ^^

[Emerton]

And btw, lol - how can it be the bands didn't change their sound? So these people are just button pushers then? You are so eager to disprove anything I say that you wreck your own train of argumentantion - thats pretty hilarious ^^

It's consistent with what I said earlier, in the same way that substituting a violinist doesn't change an orchestra's sound: Sound as in "the macro vision" as opposed to "sound different when different individuals are playing".

[Emerton]

Oh, now I completely misunderstand music, eh? You still completely misunderstand the point of the discussion, I didn't elevate any genre or performer over another, nor did anyone else.

You did so when you said this:

"Mastering your instrument is an art in itself but you can't just put writing, arranging and putting together a whole opus on the same level as playing a part in it."

"ON THE SAME LEVEL" is elevating one over the other.

Its about making a distinction. You're just mincing words and simultaneously degrade all technicians and artisans to mere "button pushers" as you like to call them.

Quite clearly that's how I interpreted your words. Calling artists "factory workers" in the context your did, was demeaning in that it suggested there was none of their expression, creativity or individuality in the resulting creation. How else is it to be read? You're comparing Rinat Ibragimov's contribution in the London Symphony Orchestra to the effect of pushing buttons on a machine that connects car roofs to the body? Is a car the same thing as a concerto to you? Is learning when to press the red or green button the same thing as spending years working out how to communicate heartbreak with a bow and some strings?
How else was I to read it?
And before you say I'm denigrating factory workers - the same factory worker may go home and practice his cello for years, injecting all his frustration into his instrument, and then brings the years of passion into an amateur orchestra that then gives immense joy to everyone involved. You're seeing preclusivity in the situation and my statements where there's actually overlap and interrelation.
There is no whole without the parts.

[normen]

And btw, lol - how can it be the bands didn't change their sound? So these people are just button pushers then? You are so eager to disprove anything I say that you wreck your own train of argumentantion - thats pretty hilarious ^^

It's consistent with what I said earlier, in the same way that substituting a violinist doesn't change an orchestra's sound: Sound as in "the macro vision" as opposed to "sound different when different individuals are playing".

Hahaha.. Okay, now I get it - I really thought you were discussing..

That is what *I* said, you said

Two players playing exactly the same piece conducted by the same conductor will not sound the same. The individual artistry of each player will still elicit a different performance.

I said

Two players alone probably won't sound similar with the same conductor - a whole orchestra most probably will though - especially if the conductor can choose who to work with.

So respect, you really had me here but I'll let you twist my (and your) words alone now, you'll have to get attention from somebody else (or god). Cya.

[Emerton]

And btw, lol - how can it be the bands didn't change their sound? So these people are just button pushers then? You are so eager to disprove anything I say that you wreck your own train of argumentantion - thats pretty hilarious ^^

It's consistent with what I said earlier, in the same way that substituting a violinist doesn't change an orchestra's sound: Sound as in "the macro vision" as opposed to "sound different when different individuals are playing".

Hahaha.. Okay, now I get it - I really thought you were discussing..

That is what *I* said, you said

Two players playing exactly the same piece conducted by the same conductor will not sound the same. The individual artistry of each player will still elicit a different performance.

I said

Two players alone probably won't sound similar with the same conductor - a whole orchestra most probably will though - especially if the conductor can choose who to work with.

So respect, you really had me here but I'll let you twist my (and your) words alone now, you'll have to get attention from somebody else (or god). Cya.

Two players playing exactly the same piece will not sound the same no. But it will not change the orchestra's sound. It will change the way the piece sounds. Two players playing the same cover song in a band will not sound the same, but it will not necessarily change the band's sound.

See that -> Context changes the meaning of a word. The overall creative sound of an ensemble versus the way a piece sounds, which may sound different on any given night!

[Theo.M]

i do what i want too. If someone else happens to like it it's a bonus sure, but the main priority is for me to feel fulfilled and get a buzz listening to my creation, and to enjoy the process of doing it. For me, composition is my zen time, pouring all my feelings and emotions into it at the time. I never know what I will end up with.. my friend asked me to write him a ballad and gave me lyrics and i turned it into a pop rock track LOL. I just go with the flow. i'd love to be famous, it wouldn't hurt LOL but if it ever happens in my lifetime it will happen by nothing other than chance - I won't actually specifically write what i think others want to hear, for the purpose of popularity. I totally get deepndark on this one.

[Benedict]

Theo, that makes me wonder if I have ever heard any of your work?

[deepndark]

The "do what I say if you want to become famous" <-- This is the worst thing you can say to an artist.
Obviously some people don't understand shit about creativity. Music making is really not the same as being a miner (as example).
The music comes from our soul - we catch emotions and put it into music. Inspiration needs to be feeded - not killed with the stupid comments.

[Benedict]

Don't forget things like when Kiss was encouraged to record "Beth" and "I Was Made For Lovin' You". Both great songs that if they had been staunchly DIY they would never have done (and most likely had a shorter/more limited career).

I don't think anyone here has suggested anything contrary to your initial idea.

[deepndark]

I don't think anyone here has suggested anything contrary to your initial idea.

This is more about non-musicians than other artists.

[Benedict]

Non-musicians can have (dumb) good ideas like anyone. I know my brother used to keep telling me to make music like Prince, or INXS - whoever was currently making bulk money on a world stadium tour. He meant well but plain didn't understand that was not in my path (chosen or otherwise) - bit like telling a fish to fly to avoid sharks. Great idea if you happen to be a flying fish. Irrelevant and confusing otherwise.

Just read the Temple Grandin book "The Autistic Brain"; she makes the same point that while in theory she could do anything, with her oddly designed brain some things just aren't going to happen. Far better to play to what her brain can do well.

Do what you know works for you and ignore the rest, no matter how well intentioned.

[deepndark]

If nothing else is said than "do music like David Guetta" I think it's not really a valued advice. Does the world need another Guetta, another Rihanna or is it cooler if there's originality in our works?

[Benedict]

http://benedictroffmarsh.com/2015/05/05 ... o-succeed/

[deepndark]

Benedict, I'm not after advice here.

[Theo.M]

The "do what I say if you want to become famous" <-- This is the worst thing you can say to an artist.
Obviously some people don't understand shit about creativity. Music making is really not the same as being a miner (as example).
The music comes from our soul - we catch emotions and put it into music. Inspiration needs to be feeded - not killed with the stupid comments.

well that actually depends on whether the artist's primary goal is to become famous and make money, or do what they do out of love and be composing what they WANT to. It is only the rare and truly blessed that can have both.

[Benedict]

Benedict, I'm not after advice here.

So what are you after then if you keep saying this thing?

[motuscott]

I like pie.