I got pickpocketed the other day and this is how it turned out

[dhruan]

Ok, fair enough. I need to return to this topic when I am a) completely sober, b) at my computer (writing this from my phone like the last comment too), c) not engaged with other stuff (like my team meetup). Ya'll have a nice Friday night.


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[kuhliloach]

Thanks again for sharing this story; I kept thinking about it. Co-incidentally this article is in the news right now:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... o=embedded

[jonheal]

Thanks again for sharing this story; I kept thinking about it. Co-incidentally this article is in the news right now:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... o=embedded

That same chick got robbed like five times, poor girl.

[Vince-Noir-99]

Interesting debate. I congratulate the OP for his very humane behaviour and the lucky, highly unexpected happy ending. This combination makes the story powerful because it has a resolving narrative sequence that indeed inspires hope. Good people usually lose, that's why Hollywood films are so successful And because, unfortunately, reality is not that sweet, we have the above less sympathetic comments: in fact, for what we know the thief didn't get 'touched by light' after all, and is stealing again right now - or worse (!). But that one story in its own remains a good one.

Whilst living in Paris in recent years, I have dealt far too many times with aggressive beggars, pickpocketers and gypsies. No matter what their motivation is, I consider any harm done to a person unacceptable. Laws such as Mundraub make sense, especially when the victim is a supermarket, not so much when the victim is a fellow citizen who makes ends meet (just an example of how we are always biased when it comes to justice). That's why I can not, for the love of God, understand why so many of us civilised people are turning against ourselves and blindly taking these savages' side. The only one answer I can theorise is some ideologic virus that is spreading, incidentally, mostly through democratic regimes.

But let's be positive! Here is one funny episode, in which the civilised character didn't get to be much of an urban hero: on New Year's Eve, I was entering the Porte de Clignancourt metro with both hands busy holding groceries bags for the coming dinner. Whilst walking through the barriers I clearly felt picking in my coat's pocket several times. As soon as I was past the gates, still holding my bags and not knowing for sure whether my phone had been taken, I looked back and noticed the usual pattern of passengers flowing in and out the gates, and a few individuals (of Mediterranean ethnicity, for those who care), standing through it. No need to be a detective, they looked suspicious and I stared at the one directly across me. Everything happened in probably a minute. The guy came forward and took out of his pocket what appeared to be my old, nasty 19$ Nokia, and simply handed it back to me. The end

[HepCat]

I can not, for the love of God, understand why so many of us civilised people are turning against ourselves and blindly taking these savages' side. The only one answer I can theorise is some ideologic virus that is spreading, incidentally, mostly through democratic regimes.

The issue here is materialism, and therefore all problems are to do with money.

So now, the criminal is not bad, he's just poor.
The crime victim is bad, because he put the poor robber in jail instead of giving him money or materials to eat.
The celebrity psychopath is OK, because he donated to cancer charities.
Everything is reduced to a balance sheet.
We all begin with zero wealth. If one of us gets money, then that's seen as inequality. If there are too many such "inequalities", then there's a civil war, where you can't tell the difference between the bad and good guys.

It's potentially the root of the world's problems, not the solution. Ofc l don't want to discourage from charity, but without perspective (we need to accept that turning the pickpocket over to the police is OK - too many ppl are seeing this as just about money and therefore saying it's wrong to hand the guy over to the police - wth?), all we're talking about is accountancy and materialism.

Whilst living in Paris in recent years, I have dealt far too many times with aggressive beggars, pickpocketers and gypsies.

As a musician, l love traditional Roma gypsy culture. When l was little, my bike was stolen when an Irish gypsy campsite appeared behind my house. I never hated the gypsies though, l try to refrain from stereotyping.

Fast forward 2 decades: I went camping. I was cycling in the local area, and fell off my bike, landed on my elbow and knee. The knee was hurt really really bad, blood everywhere! When l returned to the campsite my neighbour saw how bad my knee was (l could barely walk!).

The neighbour = a family of Dutch gypsies, selling knives. The leader of the family gave me lots of spaghetti bolognaise to eat (they force fed me!), and gave me l think £10 to get a taxi back to the train station at the end of my camping stay (l was carrying all of my stuff in a backpack, and travelling on my mountain bike, but with my injuries, this would have been very hard, to travel 8 miles back to the train station across hilly countryside).

Quite heartwarming isn't it?

I've also seen a lot of Roma recently in England, they pick through rubbish to scavenge metals and other recyclable materials, while my fellow Britons claim welfare benefits and sit at home eating fried chicken.

[Vince-Noir-99]

Democracy is not in question. The issue here is materialism, and therefore all problems are to do with money. There is no longer good / evil.

So now, the criminal is not bad, he's just poor.
The celebrity psychopath is OK, because he donated to cancer charities.
Everything is reduced to a balance sheet.
We all begin with zero wealth. If one of us gets money, then that's seen as inequality. If there are too many such "inequalities", then there's a civil war, where you can't tell the difference between the bad and good guys.

It's potentially the root of the world's problems, not the solution. Ofc l don't want to discourage from charity, but without perspective, all we're talking about is accountancy and materialism.

Yes, I think you're right about inequalities being a major problem, but I didn't mean to say democracy is. I meant to say that the trend of taking the side of those who hurt the very us is a phenomena mostly happening in the 'West' (which I called democratic regimes, I'm not sure which term they prefer).

Gypsies etc.

Ha, yes, indeed! Very rare event, I bet. I do not doubt that some members of the large Gypsy community are individuals that see us in friendly terms. When I typed 'Gypsies', I should have said 'some Gypsies' to be more accurate. I know the unpleasant feeling of being stereotyped, on the other hand, stereotypes come from nothing but the truth, and it's needless to say that as such, they have plenty of exceptions, just like the nice family you have encountered. If the majority of Britons would keep eating fried chicken sitting at home on the dole for a few hundred years, sure enough we'd have a new stereotype. And hypothetically, your descendants, good honest hard working people, now a minority, would not be so happy to be confused with the others

[HepCat]

Democracy is not in question. The issue here is materialism, and therefore all problems are to do with money.

Yes, I think you're right about inequalities being a major problem

Hi, sorry for being vague. What l meant was, in the minds of ppl that glorify the criminal over the victim, material inequalities (and materialism per se), is more important than simple right / wrong. I was just pointing out that that is craaazy.

I've edited that recent post to make it more clear now

Ha, yes, indeed! Very rare event, I bet. I do not doubt that some members of the large Gypsy community are individuals that see us in friendly terms. When I typed 'Gypsies', I should have said 'some Gypsies' to be more accurate. I know the unpleasant feeling of being stereotyped, on the other hand, stereotypes come from nothing but the truth, and it's needless to say that as such, they have plenty of exceptions, just like the nice family you have encountered. If the majority of Britons would keep eating fried chicken sitting at home on the dole for a few hundred years, sure enough we'd have a new stereotype. And hypothetically, your descendants, good honest hard working people, now a minority, would not be so happy to be confused with the others

stereotypes come from nothing but the truth

Stereotypes come from truth and lies, and a mix of truth and lies. The ball's in your court, will you make fine judgements or sweeping judgements?

[O1B]

Counseling on Humanity seems in order.
Pity. .. next we'll be hearing about their … souls'… and how our best friend…

"a traveling people with dark skin and hair who speak Romany" deserves some respect -not blanket stereotypes - no?

Whilst living in Paris in recent years, I have dealt far too many times with ... gypsies.

“Sure, Bush and Cheney tortured people, but at least they didn’t try to get working people health insurance.”
MICHAEL CAINE … self-described 'Gypsy' … and a righteous human being.

Great, heart-warming OP, OP'er. Normen, thanks for reminding me of that Humanitarian Law.

From ROMA: "Stealing small amounts of food to stave off hunger is not a crime, Italy's highest court of appeal has ruled."

[Vince-Noir-99]

From ROMA: "Stealing small amounts of food to stave off hunger is not a crime, Italy's highest court of appeal has ruled."

But Gypsies are not known for stealing small amounts of food to avoid starvation. I challenge any statistics to prove they do that. On the other hand, what supports the Gypsy stereotype is the truth that they are known for breaking into families' homes such as my elderly parents, drugging them in their sleep and take cash and other valuables. This is widely reported, very much so in Italy. Gypsies are also known for occupying public and private properties, only to leave them behind after a while in gross conditions. Gypsies know well enough how to take advantage of the weak law enforcement in liberal democracies such as Italy (which in addition to that, is also a known inefficient society to start with). A country in which if a citizen by accident causes a greater injury or death to his/her attacker in their private home, they face penal consequences. But I digress.

Michael Caine is of Roma origins. And..? My parents didn't risk their life by the hand of someone with Roma origins who lived a British way of life without harming any citizens. My parents risked their life, like many others, by the hand of one of those Romas who actually represent the majoritarian Roma way of life.

Once more, I do not doubt there are decent people in any imaginable group/tribe/whatever, however I don't feel bad using the term 'Gypsy' together with the word 'thief' because a very small minority of Gypsies aren't thieves. Nevertheless, if I am called upon it, as I have written previously, I am happy to correct myself and rephrase adding "some" before of the offending word. Hopefully this is clear.

[jappe]

A great story, and admirable act, thanks for sharing it.

Could kindness be considered a selfish act? Because it makes me feel good practising it.

[plaamook]

Could kindness be considered a selfish act? Because it makes me feel good practising it.

I think so. You def get people that want to practice their kindness because of the sanctimonious line they can spin in thier heads over it. But really, on an ordinary level who cares. Better to be kind for selfish reasons than not. Not the worst place to find oneself.

I live with a chap, landlord, who is a multi millionaire. He isn't close to his family and has very few friends. He spends a lot of time trying to make himself feel better or happy or what have you.I was having this conversation with him about how to fill his life with some meaning. (yep, one of those conversations). I suggested that instead of sitting around wondering where he should travel to to make himself happy, a vapid persuit on its own often enough, perhapse he should consider doing some volunteer work in exotic poor countries. You get to travel, meet people, and help them out. Perfct!
His reply?
"I'm just not sure why I'd be doing it."
My reply...
"People in Nepal that are trying to rebuild their country after an earthquake don't care why you'll be doing it."

[jappe]

Could kindness be considered a selfish act? Because it makes me feel good practising it.

I think so. You def get people that want to practice their kindness because of the sanctimonious line they can spin in thier heads over it. But really, on an ordinary level who cares. Better to be kind for selfish reasons than not. Not the worst place to find oneself.

Agreed; a benign selfishness indeed.

I live with a chap, landlord, who is a multi millionaire. He isn't close to his family and has very few friends. He spends a lot of time trying to make himself feel better or happy or what have you.I was having this conversation with him about how to fill his life with some meaning. (yep, one of those conversations). I suggested that instead of sitting around wondering where he should travel to to make himself happy, a vapid persuit on its own often enough, perhapse he should consider doing some volunteer work in exotic poor countries. You get to travel, meet people, and help them out. Perfct!
His reply?
"I'm just not sure why I'd be doing it."
My reply...
"People in Nepal that are trying to rebuild their country after an earthquake don't care why you'll be doing it."

Did that motivate him?
I think selfishness is a very normal thing;
From Gods or the laws etc point of view people should be equally worth.
But from our own selfish eyes, people are not equally worth.
Whether we like to think about it or not, We ourselves and Family normally comes first, then the rest, in some priority order; we are only human.

We want to roll downhill, but sometimes there is a small up-hill before the downhill.
We cannot see why we should struggle to get up-hill.
That's when it's useful to Just Do It, and see if the motivation is waiting for us beyond the up-hill.
Perhaps the landlord should just do it.

[plaamook]

Well exactly. Perhaps you can find out why to do it in the doing of it.

Yeah, I think that kind of selfish generosity is pretty common. But I also think it's possible to move beyond that. However in the end you end up helping the people you can, the peopl connected to you. Most often that's friends and fam. Can't be helped.

[HepCat]

"People in Nepal that are trying to rebuild their country after an earthquake don't care why you'll be doing it."

In the same vein, is it OK to selflessly assist in North Korea's nuclear programme?

Is it OK to repair a serial killer's floorboards?

Is it OK to ask that homeless guy for a bj in exchange for some loose change?

[jonheal]

"People in Nepal that are trying to rebuild their country after an earthquake don't care why you'll be doing it."

In the same vein, is it OK to selflessly assist in North Korea's nuclear programme?

Is it OK to repair a serial killer's floorboards?

Is it OK to ask that homeless guy for a bj in exchange for some loose change?

Boy, this stuff can really be twisted around any old which way ...

You could probably naval gaze every single possible "kind" human act and come up with some downside as a result of it. What's the alternative; do nothing — ever?

I think for some/a lot/most people, they "know," inside, what the "right thing" to do is in almost every circumstance. It's this thing called the conscience. Obviously, with regular practice, it can be suppressed, but it's there. I know mine beats me up regulary.

"But it has been shown through psychology that sociopaths have no conscience ..." Maybe so. I don't actually have ALL the answers. But I know how I am supposed to behave.

[HepCat]

...

I think you're confusing question with answer. I was asking not telling.

And you're right about conscience, it's only subtracted from in some people. Psychopathy is not our natural state hence the "-pathy".

So, the point is, as l was trying to make all along, there's a right and a wrong, a right way and a wrong way. Its nature is unknown but we appear to be born with it (and it can't possibly be genetic).

Saying we must donate, saying we must forgive ... is the wrong way, just like stealing when there are alternatives.

Case in point: Just the act of donating money, just the act of forgiveness, is hailed as unquestionably good, to the point that we elevate money above everything, and we reduce forgiveness to a mere law, you better forgive your son's murderer or we name and shame you on social media (hasn't happened yet but l'm sure one day it will be commonplace). As you say, things can get twisted.

Glad we agree.

[jonheal]

...

I think you're confusing question with answer. I was asking not telling.

And you're right about conscience, it's only subtracted from in some people. Psychopathy is not our natural state hence the "-pathy".

So, the point is, as l was trying to make all along, there's a right and a wrong, a right way and a wrong way. Its nature is unknown but we appear to be born with it (and it can't possibly be genetic).

Saying we must donate, saying we must forgive ... is the wrong way, just like stealing when there are alternatives.

Case in point: Just the act of donating money, just the act of forgiveness, is hailed as unquestionably good, to the point that we elevate money above everything, and we reduce forgiveness to a mere law, you better forgive your son's murderer or we name and shame you on social media (hasn't happened yet but l'm sure one day it will be commonplace). As you say, things can get twisted.

Glad we agree.

[plaamook]

"People in Nepal that are trying to rebuild their country after an earthquake don't care why you'll be doing it."

In the same vein, is it OK to selflessly assist in North Korea's nuclear programme?

Is it OK to repair a serial killer's floorboards?

Is it OK to ask that homeless guy for a bj in exchange for some loose change?

How is asking a beggar for a blowjob meant to be an act of kindness?

[HepCat]

Is it OK to ask that homeless guy for a bj in exchange for some loose change?

How is asking a beggar for a blowjob meant to be an act of kindness?

You'll be paying him. So, can you really say that any work, or any donation, is ok? There's no discernment there.

Or even that handing a criminal over to the police is unacceptable, and giving him food / money is the only good thing to do? There's too much prejudice against one type of good (handing the criminal over to the police), in favour of another type of good (financial charity).

Two extremes a.k.a. no discernment, and purblindness. I think they were highlighted in the extreme cases l listed (or at least, "no discernment" was, and purblindness = some of the original responses to the OP, where the act of giving money to the criminal was seen as the only possible good, and some ppl would probably have made it a compulsory act).

Between those 2 extremes is a conscience that rises above strict rules that ppl seem to be laying down on this thread. As others have said, that higher conscience seems to be something that occurs naturally within us by default.

[plaamook]

I think you're just being pedantic at this point.
The op tried to work w his situation in a way that was open minded in order to bring about a resolution that was beneficial to all involved. That's how I read it anyway. Maybe it worked maybe it didn't.
All I'm saying is I wouldn't criticise his inspiration to try to archive that. I don't think it is in itself naive or stupid. As to whether the pickpocket was helped by it all or whether he will go on to hurt others none of us can say. We weren't there reading and feeling the situation. Which I think is important. he tried out an alternative to kicking some street urchin farther down. I don't think it compares to paying beggars for blowjobs or help n Roth Korea to build nukes.

[calebbrennan]

It's a very simple story in a way

Thievery was not rewarded and got exposed for everyone to see

The crook got embarrassed into owning up

[HepCat]

I think you're just being pedantic at this point.

Ad hominem. You've no reason to think that. Please discuss with reference to what l've written

The op tried to work w his situation in a way that was open minded in order to bring about a resolution that was beneficial to all involved. That's how I read it anyway. Maybe it worked maybe it didn't. All I'm saying is I wouldn't criticise his inspiration to try to archive that. I don't think it is in itself naive or stupid. As to whether the pickpocket was helped by it all or whether he will go on to hurt others none of us can say. We weren't there reading and feeling the situation.

Straw Man. I don't know why you're saying this but l suspect you're missing the point of everything l've said from the first reply on this thread to my previous post, which was: exercise your finer judgements, it's not always straightforward and it's certainly not all about the money (originally to the OP but l think it applies to some replies too).

Which I think is important. he tried out an alternative to kicking some street urchin farther down.

This is the other type of post l was replying to apart from the OP so l hope you'll read my actual responses as they were typed for the OP and for you - l've already replied to all that
Btw if you believed that, you'd be throwing money at me for being in error, so show me the money There is no counterargument.

I don't think it compares to paying beggars for blowjobs or help n Roth Korea to build nukes.

Reductio ad absurdam, or rather, reducing using absurd lines of argument. I never suggested these things as a course of action and l've already explained that at length, exhaustively. Please get over the scary words that l used like bj and nukes. As l've explained myself completely already, it ends here for me. Peace

[calebbrennan]

If the thief had known there was a free download of Rack Extentions on a trial basis it might have been different,

[calebbrennan]

I enjoyed your story and appreciated the rip off artist getting exposed and admitting it

[calebbrennan]

World peace and my Thor program have a lot in common

Slow the attack

increase the sustain release


I feel ya