More Propellerhead Stupidity

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Namahs Amrak
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21 Aug 2015

Over the past few years I have learned to expect pointless non-answer responses from the Propellerhead Helpdesk staff. Although it's a long list, one recurring issue has been surrounding the de-registering and re-registering my computer as the auth key. Despite following their precise instructions, each time I run into issues, it's always my fault according to them.

I have also been in touch with their sales director on their poor standards in addressing currencies for non EU/USA customers. Responses were in true Propellerhead fashion. "Oh we have been told by people in your country that they would prefer USD over Euro". Load. Of. Crap. Who are these people you're consulting with on matters of currency ?

However, an email discussion that took place earlier in the year surely takes the cake for absolute short-sightedness, nonsensical logic, and reeks of simply not giving a damn about their job to even bother speaking to someone about potential sales. If the easy answer is 'No', then I can be damned sure many Propellerhead support staff are going to exercise their apathy.

I wrote to them to discuss the mechanics of owning multiple licenses. Early next year I will have a requirement for 5 purchases, which will grow to at least 10 versions, (plus a couple of specific RE's for each) for outsourced staff tools. As these would remain assets to my business, not the individuals using them, I would be the administrator, and as staff come and go, I would simply reset the passwords, and reallocate the licence to another user. Much as with any other commercial software.

Sounds good for them, hey - 10 licences for commercial purposes, RE sales, brand exposure in a professional services field..... not so good according to the zombie who answered my email (Names have been omitted, because they're as bad as each other).

He proceeded to tell me that sharing accounts is not allowed. :roll:

I wonder how much time he spent actually thinking about the question. There is no sharing of accounts, they would all be owned by one party. That is, my business. What makes it even more ridiculous is that we can freely transfer licences between users (without RE's) as people buy and sell. Yet for me, of whom there would never be any ownership transfer, I'm told this rubbish.

I went into further detail by reply, in the hope that someone may actually read my requirements properly. It was eventually referred to someone else who took the classic 'watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat' approach to customer service, then suggested I buy some educational licences ! What on earth!? I did not indicate that I was part of a school or similar institution, in fact I was quite clear that this was for commercial purposes.

But the fun times don't end there. I was then referred to third party resellers in the USA. Um, what the hell?! I want to buy 10 licences, directly from the developers, and they shoo me out the door with advice that's just plain wrong.

Personally, I would fire staff if they took such a lazy, disinterested approach to representing my business. Time and time again, to give whatever stupid answer they feel, thus MISINFORMING clients, is a reputation killer. Same goes with technical support (it's always my fault apparently) as with customer service, the email exchanges eventually dry up, and when they run out of answers and simply stop engaging.

So what am I left to do? I truly want everyone to be on the Reason platform, because it's my own software of choice and I can write detailed SOP's, provide training and support on Reason, instead of learning a new DAW. Yet Propellerhead don't want my business ! 10 licences, 10 Selig Gain, 10 Selig Leveler, 10 EQ RE's of some description and that would just be for starters.

But no... I'll have to learn Reaper instead, and pay someone to build some stock FX chains.

The days of shithouse service and support are coming to an end. While it's become the norm of sorts, the trend is back on the customer experience. I have a few 'software as service' licences, and some of them excel at follow up, correct answers, going that extra mile, providing outstanding online documentation and a user community forum. I recently started using XERO accounting software, and am paying twice as much as I could have, by going with another solution. Why? Because professional colleagues have all raved about their service. There is significant value in this right alongside the software's ease of use.

Apple also nail it for customer service. My 70 year old mother called me recently wanting advice on buying a smartphone. She's aware of the big two, being Apple iPhone & Samsung Galaxy, and I proceeded to tell her that for whatever she's going to need it for, one is more or less the same as the other. (I did warn her to take an Apple devotee's comments with a grain of salt though, being the fervent nature of fanboys. ) A short time later, I pondered a little more, called back and suggested she might want to get an iPhone. Now, I'm not an iPhone owner and never have been. Yet I have listened to people's positive stories of returning broken phones and getting a new one, no questions asked, the Apple Helpdesk, which sounds world class, and other operating principals that set them apart. And for my dear old Mum, that was the statement that sold her on an iPhone. She's going to pay more for a phone that does pretty much the same thing as a Galaxy, simply because word-of mouth praise is circulating.

Not sure if anyone has a monthly Google Apps for Work subscription, but here's another company that offer extraordinary support. Right this minute as I type this, I could go online, get a code, make a phone call and be onto a Google helpdesk staff member within minutes. That's right ! Talking to Google ! Their follow up and customer nurturing is so strong that their courtesy calls are often annoying ! All for a measly $10/month per user.

Think also about lifetime value, as any self respecting company should. The lifetime value I represent to Google will always be capped at $10/month. As a could based platform, there will never be upgrades. In fact, I'm considering dropping down to the $5/month/user plan, but I will still get the same access to phone support. What do Propellerhead do? Sure they have vaguely considered the upsell through introducing third party RE's, but that's it. At what point do they think ignoring customers with a multi-sell potential is good business practice. With an ethically questionable, but fairly reliable model of NFR plugins, they need to keep people in the net, and they need to be catching more people in this net, to oblige them into remaining active customers. They sure won't do it my employing staff whose greatest skill is apathy.

As with recommendations, in the past I have pointed people to Reason, primarily so I could help them learn. These days however, I tend to suggest new musicians try some of the other options out there, and their lite versions. This becomes a hidden loss to Propellerhead, as they are losing customers before they even get through the gate. While it's not a lot, I have helped three people get started this year. Al of them have a high disposable income, and would think nothing of dropping $100 at a time on RE's. In fact, one of these people has already spend over $1k on VST's since getting into the hobby. The *only* person I have recommended Reason to this year is one person, and that was with future training, collaborating and jamming in mind (ie to be compatible with my software).

Therefore, the dimwit who last communicated with me about the multi licence question has lost his employer my 10 licences and 30 RE's, but thousands of dollars in 2016 in my recommendations to avoid the company. Lifetime value loss? $10,000 wouldn't be a stretch. A loss that starts with me, expressing my dissatisfaction with their poor customer interactions. Being that high-disposable income earners tend to know other high disposable income earners, and personal endorsements being powerful organic marketing, these guys are going to be telling their friends about Cubase and Protools, and Reason will never be uttered. Bad luck Propellerhead how many of these cases can you sustain if you are to remain competitive and profitable. Wake up and think about WHERE and WHY your business now needs to rely on petty point rollouts and spam mail campaigns to turn over a buck.

What are these people paid to do if not operate in the company's best interest? 3/4 of the team need to be fired, and some proper management (current ones are just as useless as their staff) needs to be looking at the service levels, or perish into oblivion.

There's a reason companies like Apple & Google are leaders in the technology industry, it's service excellence existing right alongside their products. I don't know if Propellerheads will ever break out of their nickle & dime mentality if they can't even be at a point of 'acceptable', let alone 'exceptional'.

I'm of no doubt that the hoards of "Props can do no wrong" devotees will chime in claiming that their cherished software gods are above reproach. And good for you! If you haven't been subject to the lousy service, then you're lucky. The old forum was filled with people who would beg to differ. In fact, I cannot recall one single other company that I have heard/read so much dissatisfaction about, from their customers.
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Pinkbox
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22 Aug 2015

When Reason 7 got out, I tried it, and then I wrote 'em it was not worth the value. The next day they asked me to choose between Parsec and PX7. I chose PX7. We've been living a love story since.

dhruan
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22 Aug 2015

Good points there and pretty much singles out PH's single user/license/workstation (pro or consumer) orientation, for example REs being tied to a specific account, instead of installations/instances of use of the main software. It can be a valid business strategy but the support side could use some clarification of their service and value proposals. Just saying "No, unfortunately that is not possible currently or in the foreseeable future." could win a few points in their favor. Straight, honest answers that communicate their strategy and policy.
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Ostermilk
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22 Aug 2015

Hey Neph.

The thing that comes across to me when I read your missive from the perspective of an imagined customer support operative is "How the heck could I help this person."

You say you want 10 license to educate others yet you say EDU licenses aren't appropiate, and I don't understand why you'd need to appropiate license ownership to anyone else, if you own the licenses you can issue keys or login details to whatever users you like and change those details yourself, or indeed transfer ownership, if a particular user was no longer part of your operation.

Failing that it may well be that Reason isn't the best fit for what you want as it doesn't appear to offer multi-seat licensing in the form you require in which case it might be more fruitful to find a similar product with a licensing deal better suited to your aspirations. Why choose a suit that doesn't fit because you want THAT suit and then complain to the tailor because he doesn't make alterations to your liking?

So I'd have to ask from that hypothetical support persons view "How can we help, what is the resolution that you want""?

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zeebot
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22 Aug 2015

I honestly didn't read that entire post but what i think the op is saying is that he wants to control the licences as a group even though they will be separate accounts.
I can see where he is coming from..say he gives an account to someone he is teaching with a username and password there is nothing stopping the user from simply changing the password and walking away with a shiny legit copy of reason for nothing.
He is looking for a sort of admin control which props dont do for commercial licences. I think the edu licences do though (would have to be clarified).
Only way he could do it would be to login physically to all accounts before anyone tried to use them or register 10 computers or get 10 dongles.
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Last Alternative
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22 Aug 2015

Haha non-answers is pretty much all I've ever gotten from those guys.
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tiker01
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22 Aug 2015

The problem with EDU licence is the lack of Re management as far as I know.

Here it is (I couldn`t find a more current version):

"How can I upgrade my multi-user license to Reason 7? Will I be able to use Rack Extensions?

If you own a previous Reason multi-license, you are eligible to purchase the corresponding EDU upgrade (single, five or ten user pack). Contact your local dealer/distributor for more info.

As a multi license owner, you are not able to use Rack Extensions."

https://www.propellerheads.se/support/u ... -licenses/
    
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submonsterz
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22 Aug 2015

A simple challenge and response form for changing of passwords and account info is all that would need to be in place on the account change settings simples.
no one would know the original set responses except the original keeper of the accounts so it would be hard for anyone who is not a hacker and good at it to hack props servers to steal the licenses and walk off with them .
Last edited by submonsterz on 22 Aug 2015, edited 1 time in total.

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Exowildebeest
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22 Aug 2015

Looks like Propellerheads needs to look at that licensing structure.

Regarding support: meh. I've always lived with the idea that any support/helpdesk from any company is shit. I expect that. That might be a somewhat typically Dutch attitude though.

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submonsterz
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22 Aug 2015

Exowildebeest wrote:Looks like Propellerheads needs to look at that licensing structure.

Regarding support: meh. I've always lived with the idea that any support/helpdesk from any company is shit. I expect that. That might be a somewhat typically Dutch attitude though.
Lol a help desk that cannot help take your money lol never heard of one :). They normally find a way to take your money it is the after support that sucks nine out of ten times :).

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chimp_spanner
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22 Aug 2015

It took me a couple of reads but I think I get it now. I would say that Propellerheads are not unique in *not* catering to this kind of setup. I mean, take Cubase 8. I have to have a dongle inserted to use that (I can only dream of Steinberg adopting a PH style authentication system!) and if I was to buy copies for my "staff" they would need dongles, and they could quite easily leave and keep them and have a working copy of Cubase.

Perhaps a solution would be to keep the online authorization for each copy to yourself, and only supply the ignition keys. This way you would be able to de-activate a copy remotely by just logging in and running it (PH server would recognize that it is open in two locations) and you could also have your staff sign something to acknowledge that the ignition key remains property of you and your company, so they would be contractually obliged to return it if they leave at which point I guess it would become a legal/criminal matter if they refused to do so?

It's messy, I know. Because it means 10 keys, 10 logins. But if you were particularly methodical about it in terms of naming/numbering the accounts, perhaps it wouldn't be so bad and you would retain some control/ownership of the software :) That's the best I can come up with short of PH massively changing their license policy!
Last edited by chimp_spanner on 22 Aug 2015, edited 1 time in total.

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Exowildebeest
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22 Aug 2015

submonsterz wrote:
Exowildebeest wrote:Looks like Propellerheads needs to look at that licensing structure.

Regarding support: meh. I've always lived with the idea that any support/helpdesk from any company is shit. I expect that. That might be a somewhat typically Dutch attitude though.
Lol a help desk that cannot help take your money lol never heard of one :). They normally find a way to take your money it is the after support that sucks nine out of ten times :).
Really? Let's be brutally realistic hear: helpdesk/callcenter work is one of the lowest forms of employment in the Western world/Northern hemisphere. Work done by students mostly - if it hasn't been outsourced to India or wherever (for English speaking countries).

I fully expect personal support from medium to large to very large companies to be run by incompetent and unmotivated people, who are either completely oblivious or just sticking to some script they have to conform to.

Competent personal support is the hallmark of small companies, family stores and businesses, because there, support is done by the same people who make the stuff, or are involved in making the stuff, that they're selling. Propellerheads is not, or at least no longer, this. That's both a good and a bad thing for various reasons of course.

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Namahs Amrak
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22 Aug 2015

Ostermilk wrote: The thing that comes across to me when I read your missive from the perspective of an imagined customer support operative is "How the heck could I help this person."
Precisely. The proactive operator would be asking this question of himself, rather than "How can I close this request ticket as quickly as possible, with the least possible interest in my job, or the company I'm representing"

Ostermilk wrote:You say you want 10 license to educate others yet you say EDU licenses aren't appropiate, and I don't understand why you'd need to appropiate license ownership to anyone else
I am not providing educational services. The only training I would be providing is a means to an end, and the DAW will simply be a tool used to perform the required tasks. Much as if I ran a warehouse and trained someone to operating a forklift in order to do the storeman's job, I would not be considered a forklift training service.
Ostermilk wrote:Why choose a suit that doesn't fit because you want THAT suit and then complain to the tailor because he doesn't make alterations to your liking?
It's not much of an allegory you are using, because I don't believe my proposed business model is in contravention of the terms. Licences remain in my ownership. The key problem I see is that the question is deemed as 'too hard to bother pursuing'.
zeebot wrote:I can see where he is coming from..say he gives an account to someone he is teaching with a username and password there is nothing stopping the user from simply changing the password and walking away with a shiny legit copy of reason for nothing.
My exercise in forward thinking this through, and what would have been a continued dialogue if not for the ridiculous response, is a scenario where, despite me issuing staff with a username and password with the instruction that only online authorisation is to be used (therefore allowing me to maintain control when they no longer use the software), they work out that they can use their PC as the auth. key, then leave (they would be using their own computers). Once again though, there would be an easy enough remedy if Propellerhead gave a damn about the sale, and they could simply unregister that key on their end, upon my request as the licence owner. They do this all the time - in my own experience when reinstallin my OS, when the deregistration fails on my end, they can reset it.
tiker01 wrote:The problem with EDU licence is the lack of Re management as far as I know.

As a multi license owner, you are not able to use Rack Extensions."
Ha ! Their suggestion then, to consider an EDU licence, is irrelevant anyway, as I would have required RE's for each licence. There's another example of sloppy customer service.

Although for clarity, I'm not sure the discussion made mention of my requirement for RE's. Oddly, they never bothered to ask. Don't they know anything about upsell marketing ? Listen to the customer, look for the business opportunities, and work in the company's best interest.
chimp_spanner wrote:I would say that Propellerheads are not unique in *not* catering to this kind of setup.
This is a poor measure of service. If my competitors are doing something poorly, rather than see that as a green light to equally ignore customer care, I would see that as a opportunity to stand out from the crowd. [/quote]
Exowildebeest wrote: Really? Let's be brutally realistic hear: helpdesk/callcenter work is one of the lowest forms of employment in the Western world/Northern hemisphere. Work done by students mostly - if it hasn't been outsourced to India or wherever (for English speaking countries).
That's a bit unfair to many people who do this type of job. There are plenty of companies that promote a vibrant envoronment in which people want to work in this field, perhaps as a stepping stone in their career. You are only correct in the model of outsourced call centre operations, and there's a very good reason for this, which isn't reflective of the staff, but the management.

A few years ago I was in a supervisory position for a multinational company who were in the process of outsourcing their finance & accounting operations to India. The outsourcing partner company sent out a dozen 'Knowledge Experts' who spend two months sitting with supervisors and staff to map out the processes in a flow-chart style of action. Ie if Situation "A", then respond with "B".

The outcome is that the staff are not given the discretionary ability to make decisions that are 'off script'. This is a massive failing, because business, like life itself, is not so black & white. Once example I can give you, relevant to the company i was contracted to, was that they set their ERP to block customer deliveries on accounts that were 45 days overdue. No amount of phone calls from the customer could get those orders released, many of them critical. Why ? because it didn't fit into the flow chart, and the staff weren't given disretionary powers to look at it and think "oh this order is blocked for a $10,000 overdue balance, but they spend $1.5 million a year". Fuck, it's a no brainer that the order needs to be released. What' worse is that many of these high-value customers only had overdue balances sue to unactioned claims they made against us, so really, they weren't even overdue in the first place.

The customers could see this, and the customer service staff could see this... but the rigid methodology signed off my the management disallowed the staff to take the appropriate action. Any failing on the frotline staff's part is almost always the fault of the system, and of the management, rather than the person we speak to.

As an aside to this stupid problem, I myself had to fight long and hard with mamagement on my end, to initiate a percentage-based outcome, ie if the overdues were more than 5% of the open balances then the orders can be despatched. There's a big difference between a $1.5M customer being overdue by $10k and a $50,00 customer being overdue by $10k.
Exowildebeest wrote: I fully expect personal support from medium to large to very large companies to be run by incompetent and unmotivated people, who are either completely oblivious or just sticking to some script they have to conform to.

Competent personal support is the hallmark of small companies, family stores and businesses, because there, support is done by the same people who make the stuff, or are involved in making the stuff, that they're selling. Propellerheads is not, or at least no longer, this. That's both a good and a bad thing for various reasons of course.
There seems to be some contractions in your statements here. Regardless, outstanding customer service is nether the exclusive domain of small business or corporations. Your second paragraph suggests that small companies offer better service.... yet Propellerheads are what i would consider very small, with only 40 employees, and their helpdesk support and customer service is terrible.

Conversely, the two examples I have in my opening post defy your theory. I can pick up the phone to Google, confident in the knowledge that my ticket will be dealt with professionally and in a timely manner. In the cases where immediate resolution is not forthcoming, I always get the feeling that my issue is not being ignored, and they are doing all they can.

Two weeks ago I cancelled a trip to Indonesia, because there has been a lot of volcanic activity that grounded flights for days at a time. The airline (my country's largest budget carrier, whose parent company is also my country's largest airline) immediatly, and without question, offered a resolution and the result is that I'm not out of pocket by even a dollar. They are under no obligation to do this, because natural world activities are out of their control, but they did so. My travel insurance company, also one of the biggest corporations in the industry, also provided full compensation, so no loss to me on the policy there either. On the other end of the scale, while I was fully prepared to lost my deposit, the tiny businesses (that being a family run lodging on a small remote beack in a traditional fishing village) refund my deposit without issue, and I even received SIX emails from them asking me if I got the money, wishing me well, and expressing a genuine empathy that my plans were cancelled. So here we have two extremes of business, the billion dollar companies, and the little sole operator in a developing country both focused on customer satisfaction and resolution.

Major corporations are starting to switch on to the need for after-care and resolution, and part of that is accountability. Many now send quick surveys once a ticket is closed, and analyse the results. A customer may be very unhappy with whatever problem arises, and this is always bound to happen. But when staff know that a survey's going to be despatched asking the customer "How did we do?", then you can be damn sure they are going to operate to the best of their abilities. Many companies also offer bonuses to individual staff who get positive feedback, which is why I always make a point to answer these surverys and make a personal note suck as " I was quite annoyed about this problem, but John handled it very well, and my issue is now resolved".

What do Propellerhead do, as a company, that focuses on their internal processes and how they manage issues ? In my eperience, they tend to do very little. As Last Alternative mentions, "Non-Answers" are common, and in many cases "Wrong Answers" are despatched also. I imagine the staff are not bound by any rigid black & white call management flowchart, as is the case with outsourced call centres. So they are left to their own devices, are unaccountable for their the task they are paid to do, and the result is customer dissatisfaction.

Former CEO of IBM Lou Gerstner has been quoted as saying "Customer Complaints are the schoolbooks from which we learn".. For a company to take a sheer arrogant position and dismiss negative feedback is the antithesis of commercial growth.
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Ostermilk
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22 Aug 2015

Well I've got to admit I don't like any of this latest trend of software as a service but I'm pretty sure most of us discerning customers have been outvoted by the tolerance of those that are prepared chuck good money at stuff they can't transfer or ever get to own. IOW too many peoplle are prepared to pay for nothing more than a transient right to use something for awhile than actually take ownership of anything that could be considered a residual asset. It isn't the internet I once hoped it would turn out to be, full of social mischief and empowered individuals being able to be heard, it's sheep lining up for the slaughter or at least to be fleeced by the giant corporations but unlike the sheep people are extra stupid as they complain about the length of the queue and even try to get nearer the front of it as well... :D

Having said that Reason still comes (for now) as a transferable software product which retains a fairly decent resale value compared to most software products.

However I think looking at what I can gather from your requirements I don't think Reason would be my first choice because of the lack of multi-user support and the need to purchase further Apps (RE's) for each licensed copy if you need that extra functionality.

I can't really comment on your experience with CS as I've had little to do with support and the couple of minor issues that I've had to deal with have been dealt with effectively and most all of the Props staff I've come across to date have seemed far from stupid, but that's not to diminish the comments you are making, that's just been my limited experience.

Anyhow enough of all that. how the heck are you my erstwhile and errant nephew and where and how have you been?... ;)

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Namahs Amrak
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22 Aug 2015

Ostermilk wrote:how the heck are you my erstwhile and errant nephew and where and how have you been?... ;)
Top of the morning, dear Uncle. I'm travelling well, and have been spending a lot of my time unshackled from forums, and trying to get this business launched.

Ostermilk wrote:Well I've got to admit I don't like any of this latest trend of software as a service but I'm pretty sure most of us discerning customers have been outvoted by the tolerance of those that are prepared chuck good money at stuff they can't transfer or ever get to own.
SAS is something that I have long dismissed as well, but I'm starting to see it in a new light, at least for commercial purposes. Take for example the aforementioned XERO accounting package. for $50/mo (actually I scored a 12 month discount, contract-free, so its only $37.50). I am in no position presently to be forking out $500+ for a locally installed equivalent, plus it allows me to work entirely 'in the cloud'.. which is perfect for my long-term goal to turn over an income while being anywhere in the world with an internet connection. In saying that though, it all starts to add very quickly, with Google apps adding an extra $10/mo, Dropbox (now there's a rort of a service if ever there were one) for $20/mo, and whatever other apps I may need to utilise.

For personal, hobbyist usage such as with the bulk of Reason users, I do feel that an SAS model is inappropriate. Propellerhead seem disinterested in the commercial market for DAW solutions, while ProTools being an 'industry standard', appear to see the value for business users. A subscription fee becomes just another operating expense for the professional engineer, and there is some merit to the shift away from outright purchase.

It's a lot to ask of a personal user though. None of this is really much more than speculation with Reason though, as there has been no indicative statements that would suggest they will move over to SAS. If they ever do, I forecast that it will be commercial suicide, unless they offer SAS as an option, rather than the only way in which to access Reason.


Ostermilk wrote:It isn't the internet I once hoped it would turn out to be, full of social mischief and empowered individuals being able to be heard, it's sheep lining up for the slaughter or at least to be fleeced by the giant corporations but unlike the sheep people are extra stupid as they complain about the length of the queue as well... :D
Yes, the internet has become a giant commercial cesspit, for the most part. But I'm thinking that you're just missing the days of scrolling marquee text and flashing aminated GIF's. :lol:

Never fear, 'classic' internet still exists, if you know here to find it. (The FAQ's deserve a special mention)

http://www.lingscars.com/

Ostermilk wrote:However I think looking at what I can gather from your requirements I don't think Reason would be my first choice because of the lack of multi-user support.
Reason is my first choice because of my familiarity with the software. I have very little experience with other DAWs so there would be a steep learning curve in order to utilise the functions required for the tasks. As I will be writing operating procedures and training videos, it's a significant waste of my time to start anew with another solution. For the record, I made an enquiry with Reaper as well, and there are problems with their licencing also (which are more relevant than the illogical response from Props). If anything, the way Reason operates from a licensing standpoint is PERFECT, as far as administrator management is concerned.
Ostermilk wrote: I can't really comment on your experience with CS as I've had little to do with support and the couple of minor issues that I've had to deal with have been dealt with effectively and most all of the Props staff I've come across to date have seemed far from stupid, but that's not to diminish the comments you are making, that's just been my limited experience.
And here's the rub. People (not lumping you into this category, Uncle) are often dismissive of the very real fact that users ARE getting poor customer service, because their own experience is not reflective of this. The truth is that most people will rarely have a need to engage with Propellerhead - and of those that do from time to time will probably reach a resolution. It's an odds-game. If their resolution rate is 70% (lousy), then the occasional enquirer has the odds on his side.

I am reminded of their most recognised staff representative for online communication often coming onto the PUF and saying "We read ALL emails", only to have people reply by stating that they had been waiting for weeks, even months, for a response. "Sorry we must have missed that one" tended to be the reply. As a one-off, that's fine, but when t happens time & time again, something is amiss.
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CharlyCharlzz
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22 Aug 2015

:mrgreen: 50% of Props staff are super cool !
It does not die , it multiplies !

 7.101 and I will upgrade maybe this summer .

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chimp_spanner
Posts: 2945
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

23 Aug 2015

Oh yeah for clarity I wasn't suggesting it's okay to not try harder because company X does or doesn't do something. I was just pointing it out I guess. Not to rag on PH too hard but their software isn't exactly industry standard to the point where you'd see entire "studio farms" using them in their pipeline. I mean it doesn't play well with other software (no external plugins, no OMF, and it has its own very particular/unique workflow). ProTools, and I think Logic offer volume licenses but then that kinda makes sense. I'd be wiling to bet that the overwhelming majority of Reason users are solo producers who require one account, and one active license at a time. I can't see them changing that any time soon unless Reason saw a huuuuge surge in popularity and was more likely to be used in teaching and professional recording environments.

Not saying I don't personally consider Reason to be pro, btw! I love Reason. Just talking about the perception "out there".

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CharlyCharlzz
Posts: 906
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

23 Aug 2015

I talked a few times with some of them and they are not into industrial standards at all ,
they really dont give a crap in doing like others and will say to you that if you dont like it the way it is then try something else .

Also it works fine with a lot of peoples and is a Producer standard in a studio , lot's of studios got it on the side because it's so fast to create the right sound you want with (if you know sound design) .

who gives a damn anyway ?!?! it's not the newest VST that will make the last summer hit anyway but only the Artiste creativity and talent .
It does not die , it multiplies !

 7.101 and I will upgrade maybe this summer .

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mcatalao
Competition Winner
Posts: 1843
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

24 Aug 2015

You are making a fuss out of nothing imho. If i had a company, with say, 10 users, i woud create 10 propellerhead users for the company, buy 10 r8 licences (of course you should talk to them to get the licenses cheaper), then i would register company's computers with each license and manage the users myself. As long as you are the only one managing the accounts, thats not a problem.

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Heater
Posts: 899
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

24 Aug 2015

Irrespective of the high opinion the Props have about their support to customers. I've always found them a bit shit.

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Namahs Amrak
Posts: 609
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Australia

24 Aug 2015

mcatalao wrote:You are making a fuss out of nothing imho. If i had a company, with say, 10 users, i woud create 10 propellerhead users for the company, buy 10 r8 licences (of course you should talk to them to get the licenses cheaper), then i would register company's computers with each license and manage the users myself. As long as you are the only one managing the accounts, thats not a problem.
I'm not spending $5,000.00+, only to have the robots at Propellerhead attempt to shut down the accounts due to usage from different IP addresses . Be aware that they ARE monitoring users, and they DO deactivate licences without even bothering to contact the account holder. Furthermore, I have already stated that the staff will be using their own computers. If you think I'm "making a fuss over nothing", then perhaps you might like to consider if I did go ahead with the purchases, according to Propellerhead's communication to date, it would not be within the scope of their terms. There is no room for 'opinion', these are the facts as they stand currently. Not sure about you buddy, but I prefer to do some investigation first before blindly opening my wallet like a faithful enslaved devotee giving alms. Especially to a bunch of crooks like Propellerhead.
My Words are my ART

hydlide

24 Aug 2015

Namahs Amrak wrote: I'm not spending $5,000.00+, only to have the robots at Propellerhead attempt to shut down the accounts due to usage from different IP addresses . Be aware that they ARE monitoring users, and they DO deactivate licences without even bothering to contact the account holder.
Nice speculation. If you say "they are monitoring users". and they "do deactivate licenses with out warning" then I want proof that this actually happened.

Only thing I know is this:
- once I start Authorizer it sends a package to propellerhead to tell me what needs updating. Does this get monitored? Maybe. MrFriday probably does (since they own the server). But does prop know this? Who knows? Who cares?
- once I log in at the shop, using a browser, some apache log will most likely log an entry somewhere in a zillion amount of log files that I have logged in from a different ip number. Do they know which ip I previous used? Maybe, who knows? Who cares?

From all I know (based on the facts) is that your serial number is linked (stored on your computer / authorizer) and that gets scambled (eggs) somehow and send back to the server of Propellerhead. Now I have to be careful what I am gonna type next since I don't want to violate the eula about reverse enginering the code of propellerhead, but what I basically did is reverse engineer the UPD / TPC packages being send back and forth from authorizer (since I wanted to protect myself from all my emails / accounts and what not being send to props).

And I know from this that some part of a hash gets send to confirm it is you. With that, they probably know your account / ip / bla / etc who you are. But really, this happens like a zillion times per day. Do you really think (just speculating here) that they monitor logs just to "ban" people using multiple ips? Without reason? (hu hu ... phun intended).

Lets say this, hypothetical... lets say you have one license... And this license gets used on 40 different locations, Africa, US, South whatever and some islands called spitsbergen. When something like this would happen, alarm bells would go off. Since I work at an IT environment (again I have to be careful what I am about to say). But lets say this scenario would happen with a single session buying stuff on the internet. I would push a button! No questions asked. Period, end of story! If someone would use like 80 leg spiders crawler just to sniff out a port... Bwemmo.. instant ban on that whole thing. Again, no questions asked.

But just saying on a whim, they do this, and without reason and blah. Serious. That really doesn't do it for me. From an IT / Logical point of view that is. There has to be more then just "using multiple ips". Lets say "if you use a single license on multiple Ips, then that might violate the EULA". Hey, EULA... they allow to "ban a license without asking questions when the EULA gets violated. But if they are 10 different licenses anyway, they would usually end up using 10 different ips most of the time. So who want to ban that for what reason? I am not sure.

If you have something to say about it, come with facts first before trying to convince me. And to be honest, you will have a real hard time doing so unless you present this with "hard" evidence to back up your "theory".
but I prefer to do some investigation first before blindly opening my wallet like a faithful enslaved devotee giving alms. Especially to a bunch of crooks like Propellerhead.
and that sums it up quite nicely... since you didn't back ground check on anything before making the previous claim you just did.

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Namahs Amrak
Posts: 609
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Australia

24 Aug 2015

There have been instances of users(in the PUF days) reporting their account being disabled due to suspected infractions of the EULA (concerning multi-use), despite there having been legitimate cause to have raised the alarm bells. The outcomes were that the user was given no warning, and had to pursue the Helpdesk route before getting an answer as to why this had happened. If the company had actually ASKED the user in the first instance, then the disabled licence wouldn't have been an issue. Whether anyone has reported this on ReasonTalk, I do not know, nor do I have any desire to trawl through old threads simply to satisfy your doubts. Whether it's based on IP, the user's specific PC identifier, or a combination of the two, is of no concern to me. My only issue is that it DOES happen.

The over-riding concern I have about all of this is that I don't believe my proposal WOULD actually contravene the terms of use. The problem is the response I received from the staff, and their complete lack of recognising a potential sales lead for core product & RE sales.

You seem to be critical of the due diligence I am taking in investigating the scenarios before purchases. Well guess what buddy ? It's not you that's going to be out of pocket, or be unable to fulfil time critical project deadlines if Propellerhead decide to shut down any one of the 10 licences. I am only too familiar with their lack of customer service, which is why I tried to square off the specifics surrounding my requirements BEFORE it becomes a problem. The licences WILL be used from multiple IP addresses, in multiple countries, and from multiple PC's, over the lifetime of their activity.

And while they *should* not be used my multiple users SIMULTANEOUSLY (that much is a clear contravention), how about if one of my contracted staff violated these terms and gave it to a friend to use, and that resulted in simultaneous usage ? My stance would of course be to terminate the agreement with them, because it would violate the terms of MY business also, but in the interim I would rather not have to jump through hoops each time that happened, in order to plead with Propellerhead to reinstate the account.
My Words are my ART

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Namahs Amrak
Posts: 609
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Australia

24 Aug 2015

hydlide wrote: what I basically did is reverse engineer the UPD / TPC packages being send back and forth from authorizer (since I wanted to protect myself from all my emails / accounts and what not being send to props).
hydlide wrote: Now I have to be careful what I am gonna type next since I don't want to violate the eula about reverse enginering the code of propellerhead
hydlide wrote: Since I work at an IT environment (again I have to be careful what I am about to say).
hydlide wrote: But does prop know this? Who knows? Who cares?

Hydlide - While you might be comfortable conducting black hat coding to work your way around Reason's security or user monitoring modules for whatever purposes, I have no intention of hacking the software for my benefit. I have a commercial code of ethics that I maintain, and am not interested in being sneaky about using the program.
My Words are my ART

hydlide

25 Aug 2015

Namahs Amrak wrote: Hydlide - While you might be comfortable conducting black hat coding to work your way around Reason's security or user monitoring modules for whatever purposes, I have no intention of hacking the software for my benefit. I have a commercial code of ethics that I maintain, and am not interested in being sneaky about using the program.
Did I say I hacked the software for my benefit?
Did I say I even hacked the software in a general context?

Nice going for putting words in my mouth
Want to know what I did? I used wireshark to obtain this information. And I only used it to check network packages

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