English question: "the less" vs "less"

[jappe]

Hello all!

I wonder if anyone can tell whats the difference betwen "the less" and "less" in this and similar context:

"I love not man the less, but nature more" (Lord Byron)

Would "I love not man less, but nature more" have exactly the same meaning, or is there some subtle difference?

[esselfortium]

Huh. I think it might be like "the less(er of the two)". Though I'm not sure. The distinction definitely seems to be subtle.

[boggg1]

This is written in archaic English by a romantic poet, 200 years ago.

It was written in 1810 (or so) when language structures were different. We also no longer say "love not" which is in the same stanza.

I can just remember the use of language such as this (the extra word "the") in my local dialect when I was a child and I know I have heard it in Scotland since. So this form does still survive. I remember "the now" used widely in one part of Scotland. "The now" is presumably exactly the same as now. Language change has never been as rapid as now but it always changes.

In a non-poetic 2015 environment it would be written "I do not love man less but rather nature more" or something similar.
Byron of course knew exactly what he was writing.

[jappe]

Thank's esselfortium ang boggg1.

In that case I like the archaic version better. These small deviations of language catch my attention and makes me think and feel - which is good thing when reading poems.
I loved some of the poetry by William Blake, I think the language used is a part of the beauty I feel there, for example in this one:

http://mural.uv.es/emdoba/dreamblake.html

I like poetry, as an amateur, though I find it hard to write english poetry. Perhaps I could create a subgenre which allows a foreigners grammatic flaws, unusual expressions, and other errors and incorporate them into the beauty of imperfection

[boggg1]

... and none of this is too far from our art - song making. Many songs use the same techniques as poetry, invented, or reinvented just for the moment, just for the impact, just for the effect. The hardest part of writing songs (or poetry) to me is that you are constrained in how much you can say within one line. Blake and Byron and many others could say so much in so few words - you're example is a classic case of that.

My favourite line from a song ever... "You are the only thing in any room you're ever in" - Elbow
In case you struggle with the English it means I only notice you.
It's poor English, it almost falls over itself in its awkwardness and its rhyme is marginal at best.
But wow, doesn't it say what the writer feels about someone.

My attitude is that I love to hear good English and I look up to people who use it better than I. But I would never look down on anyone who has worse English.

Abba became a world phenomenon on "poor" English (although never bad English), why not you ? As I've tried to say, poor English does not make you a worse person. But good English is still lovely to hear and we should be glad we have songwriters / poets and other English experts.

[JNeffLind]

Yeah, they mean the same thing. The first version is iambic pentameter. I'm guessing this came from a sonnet perhaps?

[Ostermilk]

They are different but they are the same.

They are different; the same nonetheless.

[craven]

[jappe]

Yeah, they mean the same thing. The first version is iambic pentameter. I'm guessing this came from a sonnet perhaps?

Hello!

It's this one:

http://www.smartreads.org/pleasure-path ... ord-byron/

[EnochLight]

I just had to chime in and say that this is an excellent thread. I'm a huge fan of poetry, including Byron, Keats, and Yates.

[JNeffLind]

Yeah, they mean the same thing. The first version is iambic pentameter. I'm guessing this came from a sonnet perhaps?

Hello!

It's this one:

http://www.smartreads.org/pleasure-path ... ord-byron/

Hmmm. Not strictly a sonnet, at least not one of the two main traditional types with which I'm familiar (Shakespearian or Petrarchian). Definitely some sort of sonnet hybrid though, seeing as how it ends with a couplet after a couple quatrains and uses iambic pentameter in all except the last line (which has an extra iamb).

Nice poem. Lord Byron had skills.

[jappe]

Yeah, they mean the same thing. The first version is iambic pentameter. I'm guessing this came from a sonnet perhaps?

Hello!

It's this one:

http://www.smartreads.org/pleasure-path ... ord-byron/

Hmmm. Not strictly a sonnet, at least not one of the two main traditional types with which I'm familiar (Shakespearian or Petrarchian). Definitely some sort of sonnet hybrid though, seeing as how it ends with a couplet after a couple quatrains and uses iambic pentameter in all except the last line (which has an extra iamb).

Nice poem. Lord Byron had skills.

Yes, beautiful it is.
I found it by watching this great movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0758758/?ref_=ttqt_qt_tt

[mbfrancis]

One of the fun things about English is how many different ways you can say the same thing, usually (but not always) each with subtly different meanings. It's always fun to hear songs written by Europeans (usually Swedes lol) which pick a way that an American or Brit wouldn't normally pick. It's not wrong, and it's a unique way to say something.

[normen]

"I'll be holding you forever, stay with you together" xD

[Ostermilk]

"I'll be holding you forever, stay with you together" xD

Modern Talking were doomed from the point they used Jefferson Starship as a lyrical reference there. They must have thought "nothing is going to be stopping us now".

It was never going to be ending the good...

[jappe]

I was inspired to write a poem to thank you all for participating in this thread

Never is a word to never use
when telling people truths of poetry
And always keep the limits very loose,
slave of rules in jail of symmetry

[Ostermilk]

Lord Byron had skills.

Word!

[Ostermilk]

I was inspired to write a poem to thank you all for participating in this thread

Never is a word to never use
when telling people truths of poetry
And always keep the limits very loose,
slave of rules in jail of symmetry

Exactly.

From form and structure it's fair game to stray
With rhyme and rhythm it is fun to play.
But thoughts and feelings you want to convey
Just make it clear what you're trying to say.
Or don't go fishing with either if you like

[jappe]

I was inspired to write a poem to thank you all for participating in this thread

Never is a word to never use
when telling people truths of poetry
And always keep the limits very loose,
slave of rules in jail of symmetry

Exactly.

From form and structure it's fair game to stray
With rhyme and rhythm it is fun to play.
But thoughts and feelings you want to convey
Just make it clear what you're trying to say.
Or don't go fishing with either if you like

Nice one Ostermilk!

If anyone has something to add in any poetic form, feel free to add the third stanza