ReWire Master: 15 years of silence

[ljekio]

There is still no support in Reason ReWire master even after 15 years.
how do you think the political motives in this or a lack of available resources?
Before the birth of Record is the unthinkable, but after?

Many remember the driver ReWushell in Asio4All that mimic ReBirth and allowed audio input to the old Reason via ReBirth Input Machine.
Interestingly, if someone will create a driver (dll), which will also mimic ReBirth, what will receive information about tempo and transport's start/stop and will give audio from any rewire slaves, then there will rebirth of ReBirth Input Machine?

[dflynn]

I've not seen a response from the Props on this topic. Is this something they can't do? Don't want to do? Is it a side agreement with Steinberg? It seems like an obvious enhancement to me, but I clearly don't understand the whole story. I can mimic Rewire with EMI/virtual midi/virtual audio, but it's pretty fiddly, and latency is a problem. What gives?

[JustSomeGuy]

There is still no support in Reason ReWire master even after 15 years.
how do you think the political motives in this or a lack of available resources?

This and the lack of integrated VST support is why I'm unlikely to put more money into Reason. I haven't upgraded to Reason 8, and I don't buy RE's. Maybe that's fine with Propellerheads, and while they lose my business, maybe it helps them get more customers who want to keep things simple and stable.

[RustyShakleforde]

I would love to see it but I wonder how that would affect the Re business model, they would take a hit so cant see it happening.

[EpiGenetik]

Is this something they can't do? Don't want to do? Is it a side agreement with Steinberg?

It is not anything to do with Steinberg, they are no longer affiliated with them.

how do you think the political motives in this or a lack of available resources?

ReWire is an old technology now that was always fidgety at best, and extremely latency prone. The enhanced solution is the EMI, which can broadcast to anywhere and doesn't have to be clocked.


I think it's completely fair to say that a lot of people have rose tinted shades when they reminisce about ReWire - I always remember it as being a bit of a let down, and if there's one thing the Props ain't keen on it's releasing stuff which is not in perfect working order.

[submonsterz]

Is this something they can't do? Don't want to do? Is it a side agreement with Steinberg?

It is not anything to do with Steinberg, they are no longer affiliated with them.

how do you think the political motives in this or a lack of available resources?

ReWire is an old technology now that was always fidgety at best, and extremely latency prone. The enhanced solution is the EMI, which can broadcast to anywhere and doesn't have to be clocked.


I think it's completely fair to say that a lot of people have rose tinted shades when they reminisce about ReWire - I always remember it as being a bit of a let down, and if there's one thing the Props ain't keen on it's releasing stuff which is not in perfect working order.

forgive me if I'm not getting what you are saying but how does the emi carry audio ??? that's mainly the whole idea about rewire the audio side sending out the audio of all them asio channels separately and being able to process elsewhere lack of return is its weakness hence needed master function to reprocess back in reason.
emi is midi only so explain your emi method.
I for one find using the midi sync between reason and fl or reason and reaper easy enough for that and means I can record back into reason what I have elsewhere and the sync here is bang on now I sussed it out. just the expected tiny audio latency to deal with which is almost nothing here. I can send audio out of reason via my emu patch mix mixer via sends and returns to either reaper or fl and have them routed back into reason for recording . its nothing like the audio way in rewire but it suffices my purposes but a full rewire solution would be the one. a dual rewire would be best ie two way audio .
but id like to hear what your meaning with the emi method you talk of as I'm completely lost there on what you mean .

[normen]

+1 for Reason as a Rewire master, would make integrating standalone instruments so much easier (which is what most people seem to want from "VST support" anyway).

[ljekio]

I do not believe that the VST has ever come to Reason.
And I do not think ever PH to embed video support.
But through ReWire Master many of these problems would have been alleviated.
At least in part.

ReWire is an old technology now that was always fidgety at best, and extremely latency prone. The enhanced solution is the EMI, which can broadcast to anywhere and doesn't have to be clocked.

Really?
ReWire is best solution for connect between two audio programmes with perfect synchronization and normal latency. Virtual audio and midi pipes look like crutches against this (excluding ReaRoute).

[EnochLight]

If I had the choice of having a long desired VST ported to Reason as a Rack Extension, or Reason supporting ReWire Master so I could just use it now in Reason... why would I ever spend money on a Rack Extension again (aside for those rare RE's that have no VST counterpart)?

I'm fairly certain Propellerhead have already answered this several times over (both literally and figuratively with the introduction of Rack Extensions)...

[JustSomeGuy]

If I had the choice of having a long desired VST ported to Reason as a Rack Extension, or Reason supporting ReWire Master so I could just use it now in Reason... why would I ever spend money on a Rack Extension again (aside for those rare RE's that have no VST counterpart)?

because RE technology is supposedly superior to VST technology, and you prefer superior technology?

Or you're assuming RE technology isn't really superior to VST technology, despite Propellerhead's claims? If that's the case, the current Berlin-Wall strategy for keeping Reason users away from VST's has a fatal flaw: Propellerhead has no way to keep customers from jumping the wall into VST-land when they want VST's.

[normen]

If I had the choice of having a long desired VST ported to Reason as a Rack Extension, or Reason supporting ReWire Master so I could just use it now in Reason... why would I ever spend money on a Rack Extension again (aside for those rare RE's that have no VST counterpart)?

I'm fairly certain Propellerhead have already answered this several times over (both literally and figuratively with the introduction of Rack Extensions)...

For (effects) plugins and such? VST instruments that work as standalone are almost all quite unsuitable for porting them to RE - mainly because they all bring their own ideology in terms of presets, internal FX + mixer etc. Best example for that is probably Kontakt.

[Ostermilk]

ReWire is an old technology now that was always fidgety at best, and extremely latency prone. The enhanced solution is the EMI, which can broadcast to anywhere and doesn't have to be clocked.


I think it's completely fair to say that a lot of people have rose tinted shades when they reminisce about ReWire - I always remember it as being a bit of a let down, and if there's one thing the Props ain't keen on it's releasing stuff which is not in perfect working order.

EMI an enhanced solution over Rewire, how the heck did you come to that conclusion? It's a single channel midi output device, an extremely limited one at that when you look at it's lack of SysEx and multiple CC's support.

Rewire works with 64 simultaneous channels of audio with latency performance equal than most multi-channel VST to host devices I've come across. There's still nothing available that effectively pipes audio to audio across applications, even at the OS level, as well as Rewire does. Rewire is a very capable and reliable technology even now. So much so that most every DAW manufacturer still includes it as a default feature in their premium products.

Strange then the inventor of the technology chooses not to include it as a host since adding audio handling features made it a worthwhile addition.

Strange also that despite the many people that use Rewire regularly without any issue and to great effect it's only those that can't or don't make use of it that criticise it as being below par not only that here the poster confirms their ignorance by citing a simplified single channel midi port as being a somehow 'enhanced' alternative.

Name me another technology that can handle the transfer 64 channels of audio between applications at near real-time that doesn't invlove $1000's worth of hardware? I can't think of one.

[EnochLight]

If I had the choice of having a long desired VST ported to Reason as a Rack Extension, or Reason supporting ReWire Master so I could just use it now in Reason... why would I ever spend money on a Rack Extension again (aside for those rare RE's that have no VST counterpart)?

because RE technology is supposedly superior to VST technology, and you prefer superior technology?

Or you're assuming RE technology isn't really superior to VST technology, despite Propellerhead's claims? If that's the case, the current Berlin-Wall strategy for keeping Reason users away from VST's has a fatal flaw: Propellerhead has no way to keep customers from jumping the wall into VST-land when they want VST's.

I don't buy RE because it's a "superior technology". I don't really care, in fact. I buy them because they are available in Reason. Now. It's nice that they behave like native rack "citizens" though, just like regular Reason devices. I think you are missing the bigger point in my post as it was unsaid, but others have already mentioned it - which is if Reason did ReWire Master, VST devs would have very little reason to port to Reason, and Props would lose a valuable revenue stream.

If I had the choice of having a long desired VST ported to Reason as a Rack Extension, or Reason supporting ReWire Master so I could just use it now in Reason... why would I ever spend money on a Rack Extension again (aside for those rare RE's that have no VST counterpart)?

I'm fairly certain Propellerhead have already answered this several times over (both literally and figuratively with the introduction of Rack Extensions)...

For (effects) plugins and such? VST instruments that work as standalone are almost all quite unsuitable for porting them to RE - mainly because they all bring their own ideology in terms of presets, internal FX + mixer etc. Best example for that is probably Kontakt.

You're not making a compelling argument as to why I wouldn't want Reason as a ReWire Master. The fact that various instruments in VST-land have different ideology has nothing to do with one being able to utilize it, at least it doesn't stop me from using them.

Effects would be difficult as a ReWire Master, though - agreed. Would need an "omnidirectional" update to ReWire to really make it worthwhile.

[JustSomeGuy]

If I had the choice of having a long desired VST ported to Reason as a Rack Extension, or Reason supporting ReWire Master so I could just use it now in Reason... why would I ever spend money on a Rack Extension again (aside for those rare RE's that have no VST counterpart)?

because RE technology is supposedly superior to VST technology, and you prefer superior technology?

Or you're assuming RE technology isn't really superior to VST technology, despite Propellerhead's claims? If that's the case, the current Berlin-Wall strategy for keeping Reason users away from VST's has a fatal flaw: Propellerhead has no way to keep customers from jumping the wall into VST-land when they want VST's.

... I think you are missing the bigger point in my post as it was unsaid, but others have already mentioned it - which is

I got your bigger point, but you misunderstood my response to it.

... if Reason did ReWire Master, VST devs would have very little reason to port to Reason,

You're assuming that RE-technology's supposed advantages over VST-technology are "very little reason" for VST devs to port to RE?

and Props would lose a valuable revenue stream.

but if Propellerhead fails to support VST's, they'll lose the valuable revenue stream of customers who want VST support. So, they'll lose a valuable revenue stream either way, and it's a matter of their deciding which revenue stream to sacrifice: the one revenue stream which you recognize, or the other one which you don't recognize.

Your analysis assumes that Propellerhead, by failing to support VST's, can stop customers from choosing VST's over RE's; but really Propellerhead has no power to stop customers from choosing VST's. If Propellerhead supported VST's, I would have bought Antidote and Reason 8. Instead, I bought Dune 2.

[dioxide]

Reason should have had ReWire master years ago. PH don't seem to support ReWire as well as they could have done, so now we're seeing things like Overbridge and Roland's USB mixer when PH could have offered ReWire to hardware developers, if they'd put resources into it. PH seem to be content to rest on their laurels, content that things like ReCycle are 'evergreen' products. They are, but that doesn't mean you should abandon development.

At the very least Reason should support ReWire master. I think PH saw Reason as a software instrument rack with a sequencer added on for added flexibility. Now users see Reason as a full DAW and people want to have Reason as the main part of their setup, not just to augment Live or some other DAW.

Personally I'd like to see PH not wasting any more resources on lightweight mobile apps like Take, Figure and Discover as these apps have a long way to go before they are leaders in the mobile space. I know that they say that there are no resources taken from Reason development for the mobile apps, but resource = money and I'd rather they spent the money to recruit developers for Reason as there are many features that have been needed for a long time.

[EnochLight]

but if Propellerhead fails to support VST's, they'll lose the valuable revenue stream of customers who want VST support. So, they'll lose a valuable revenue stream either way, and it's a matter of their deciding which revenue stream to sacrifice: the one revenue stream which you recognize, or the other one which you don't recognize.

Your analysis assumes that Propellerhead, by failing to support VST's, can stop customers from choosing VST's over RE's; but really Propellerhead has no power to stop customers from choosing VST's. If Propellerhead supported VST's, I would have bought Antidote and Reason 8. Instead, I bought Dune 2.

My analysis assumes that Propellerhead feel that a revenue stream, as provided by a proprietary plugin format and shop, was a more lucrative choice compared to supporting a 3rd party format that they would have no opportunity to extract income from (had they done ReWire Master or just supported VST in general). I bought Dune 2 as well, but I also buy a shitload of RE's too (I also own Antidote) as Reason is my preferred DAW to work in.

You said earlier that you don't buy RE's (and have an older version of Reason). Clearly using VST's and whatever VST host you have is your preferred environment to work in. There's no shame in that - these are just tools we use to write music. Would Reason doing either ReWire Master or supporting VST natively really change that for you?

I use Studio One for my VST stuff - funny enough - syncing Reason via ReWire. I almost always ending up bouncing those tracks to audio and import them into Reason, though. I just prefer working in Reason, is all.

I'll just go on record and state: it is very likely that you will never, ever, see ReWire Master nor native VST support in Reason. This will not affect Propellerhead's revenue stream anymore than it has for the past 15 years, IMHO.

[JustSomeGuy]

You said earlier that you don't buy RE's (and have an older version of Reason). Clearly using VST's and whatever VST host you have is your preferred environment to work in. There's no shame in that - these are just tools we use to write music. Would Reason doing either ReWire Master or supporting VST natively really change that for you?

If Reason somehow supported VST's that would definitely change things for me. I don't love Reaper. I use it because I need a host for Kontakt. I choose Reaper because I dislike it the least of VST hosts, not because I love it. If Reason hosted VST's, I'd probably make Reason my primary DAW; and if Reason were my primary DAW, I'd be buying RE's.

I'll just go on record and state: it is very likely that you will never, ever, see ReWire Master nor native VST support in Reason.

Your predictions about what the Propellerhead CEO will decide in the future.

Reaper's Justin (CEO) once made an often-quoted statement that Reaper would never support VST3. He worded it more strongly than Propellerheads ever did (Propellerheads has said VST "sucks" but they've never said they won't support it in the future). And now Reaper supports VST3.

[joeyluck]

Does Reaper have it's own plugin format?

[JustSomeGuy]

Does Reaper have it's own plugin format?

Nothing comparable to RE's that I know of. Propellerhead is the only company I know of banking on the hope of finding customers willing to go without VST's and wait until the year 2015 for convolution reverb.

[ljekio]

I think PH nothing to lose from the implementation of ReWire Master.
But it make life easier for users, who produce soundtracks for video and those who use few original VSTi. That we will never see in the format RE (Kontakt, Toontrack, etc).

If the base using of Reason is synthesizers and other built-in instruments, there is possible to produce the final processing with VST effects in the ReWire slave mode.
But if the main priority in recording audio into Reason, then this mode looks absolutely unnecessary. Then how ReWire master would raise usability favorite program to a new level.

[normen]

You're not making a compelling argument as to why I wouldn't want Reason as a ReWire Master. The fact that various instruments in VST-land have different ideology has nothing to do with one being able to utilize it, at least it doesn't stop me from using them.

Effects would be difficult as a ReWire Master, though - agreed. Would need an "omnidirectional" update to ReWire to really make it worthwhile.

Well I didn't intend to? In fact I did the opposite - make a point about why making Reason a ReWire master would make sense. You said it would somehow "cannibalize" REs, I said it wouldn't because for these instruments that could be integrated via ReWire its very improbable they'd ever become REs. My first post in this thread was "+1 for ReWire master"...?

[EnochLight]

I'll just go on record and state: it is very likely that you will never, ever, see ReWire Master nor native VST support in Reason.

Your predictions about what the Propellerhead CEO will decide in the future.

Truth be told, I've been called worse things than soothsayer.

Reaper's Justin (CEO) once made an often-quoted statement that Reaper would never support VST3. He worded it more strongly than Propellerheads ever did (Propellerheads has said VST "sucks" but they've never said they won't support it in the future). And now Reaper supports VST3.

Does Justin/Cockos have a proprietary plugin format and shop distribution to protect? Last time I checked, no.. no they don't. Their only source of income is selling Reaper licenses.

In fact I did the opposite - make a point about why making Reason a ReWire master would make sense. You said it would somehow "cannibalize" REs, I said it wouldn't because for these instruments that could be integrated via ReWire its very improbable they'd ever become REs. My first post in this thread was "+1 for ReWire master"...?

Let's perform a thought experiment. Let's assume that instead of doing one RE as a pet project, you don't have a day-job. Instead, your entire source of income is derived by creating/selling VST, and you do quite well at it.

Then there's Reason, and you have products that users of that DAW keep asking you to port, and you've been mulling over doing it or not because you just weren't sure the return on investment would be worth your time, despite the fact that - so you hear - your plugins will be "un-piratable" if ported to RE. Still, it's a shitload of work for you and then you have to part with a good percentage of your potential sales just to have it sold through the Prop Shop.

Then suddenly, Propellerhead introduce ReWire Master!

For every Reason user that now contacts you for your VST as an RE, your logical answer is to say: you can already have "Bang'n Synth Pro" in Reason via ReWire Master and a variety of free VST hosts out there. Buy it from me direct!

So again, please tell me why on earth Propellerhead would want to invite all of the well-known and unknown VST devs alike to say "forget RE's" instead, when they can get their products in Reason - for free - via ReWire Master - without ever paying a dime to Propellerhead? In this scenario, realize that there will still be some people/devs who create and release RE's, but I stand firm in the stance that the vast majority of VST devs would completely disregard any product porting, and for good reason. I've not read a compelling reason from anyone to convince me otherwise, sorry.

[ljekio]

for free - via ReWire Master - without ever paying a dime to Propellerhead?

For upgrade price, not for free. How one of most powerful features ever.

VST devs alike to say "forget RE's" instead, when they can get their products in Reason

ReWire Master never replace VST support and the RE format.
Because it's not native, not embed into one project and one program, not CVing oh my gosh.
R-Master's presence never stop hundreds of geeks in the purchase of another synth in RE format.
Synths will also be sold, and the VST FX does not affect on this.
Rather, the VST FX can affect at ReWire slave mode, but it's always with us, and it causes no worries.
So I don't understand why there should resist devs and community, especially since a true R-Master is already available - Rebirth Input Maschine (drumroll) .

[MannequinRaces]

In order for Reason to be a ReWire Master Propellerhead would have to go to all the software DAWs (or at least the major ones, Logic, Ableton Live, etc.) and say "We want your DAW to have the option to be a ReWire slave. Oh, and btw you'll have to work with us on getting our software code to work with your DAW to make it happen." Why would other DAWs want to do this? What happens if the slave DAW or one of it's plug-ins crashes?

[normen]

Let's perform a thought experiment. Let's assume that instead of doing one RE as a pet project, you don't have a day-job. Instead, your entire source of income is derived by creating/selling VST, and you do quite well at it.

Then there's Reason, and you have products that users of that DAW keep asking you to port, and you've been mulling over doing it or not because you just weren't sure the return on investment would be worth your time, despite the fact that - so you hear - your plugins will be "un-piratable" if ported to RE. Still, it's a shitload of work for you and then you have to part with a good percentage of your potential sales just to have it sold through the Prop Shop.

Then suddenly, Propellerhead introduce ReWire Master!

For every Reason user that now contacts you for your VST as an RE, your logical answer is to say: you can already have "Bang'n Synth Pro" in Reason via ReWire Master and a variety of free VST hosts out there. Buy it from me direct!

So again, please tell me why on earth Propellerhead would want to invite all of the well-known and unknown VST devs alike to say "forget RE's" instead, when they can get their products in Reason - for free - via ReWire Master - without ever paying a dime to Propellerhead? In this scenario, realize that there will still be some people/devs who create and release RE's, but I stand firm in the stance that the vast majority of VST devs would completely disregard any product porting, and for good reason. I've not read a compelling reason from anyone to convince me otherwise, sorry.

So say in that thought experiment I didn't know anything about RE in the first place so after getting a user request to port to RE I research into it, first thinking "well porting to AAX and AU wasn't that hard, lets do this". Then I find out that first of all my UI is completely not portable, it will have to be redone completely. The external technology I licensed to pack my samples into my instrument won't work on that platform either, nor will the copy protection system I licensed. The preset banks I created, including the browser for them will have to go as well. The hardware integration I created (or licensed, e.g. Kore) won't work either. The integrated effects and mixer section I did won't port well either but I could (re)create the same in the Reason system with CV and external inputs and outputs - it will basically be a completely different product and all my "calculations" on how I want the instrument to come across to users will have to be redone. Now I look at the user base of Reason and decide I will not do this.

Then suddenly, Propellerhead introduce ReWire Master! For every Reason user that now contacts me I can say "Yea sure you can use my instrument - just ReWire it in! I licensed ReWire Slave from the Props.". Then I see that my instrument sales see a slight increase due to the Reason compatibility now and after looking through all of Reasons idiosyncrasies I decide that I quite like this idea of how a DAW could work and create an instrument tailored to Reason and release it.

Lets face it, Reason will never be "just another market" for plugins, if it was it would support VST. Except for plugins where the actual core is just some algorithm putting some effect on an audio stream controlled by a few knobs all REs will have to be specific Reason devices - thats what the Props want, otherwise they'd not have done RE the way its done.

That said, I don't exactly know what we're talking about anymore, you seem to jump back and forth between your own and the Props reasoning. I am not talking about the Props reasoning but my own - it may well be that what you stated now is the Props reasoning, I don't know. To me adding ReWire master would only do good for both Reason and the Props.