ReWire Master: 15 years of silence

[ljekio]

What happens if the slave DAW or one of it's plug-ins crashes?

Same as at the failure one of the plug-ins in the DAW's Master mode and slave Reason. Nothing new.

[JustSomeGuy]

In order for Reason to be a ReWire Master...

Reaper already works fine as a ReWire slave (in Cubase).

... Propellerhead would have to go to all the software DAWs (or at least the major ones, Logic, Ableton Live, etc.) and say "We want your DAW to have the option to be a ReWire slave. Oh, and btw you'll have to work with us on getting our software code to work with your DAW to make it happen."

None of that's true, as Reaper already works fine as a ReWire slave (in Cubase).

Why would other DAWs want to do this?

Because real CEO's don't think like you.

[MannequinRaces]

... Propellerhead would have to go to all the software DAWs (or at least the major ones, Logic, Ableton Live, etc.) and say "We want your DAW to have the option to be a ReWire slave. Oh, and btw you'll have to work with us on getting our software code to work with your DAW to make it happen."

"None of that's true, as Reaper already works fine as a ReWire slave (in Cubase)." - JustSomeGuy
We're talking about Reason being the MASTER and other DAWs the slave… I admit I could be wrong about the software needing to be reworked! Can Reaper be the master and Cubase the slave when it comes to ReWire?

[MannequinRaces]

What happens if the slave DAW or one of it's plug-ins crashes?

Same as at the failure one of the plug-ins in the DAW's Master mode and slave Reason. Nothing new.

Roger that. I was just asking because I don't have any recent experience with that.

[JustSomeGuy]

Reaper's Justin (CEO) once made an often-quoted statement that Reaper would never support VST3. He worded it more strongly than Propellerheads ever did (Propellerheads has said VST "sucks" but they've never said they won't support it in the future). And now Reaper supports VST3.

Does Justin/Cockos have a proprietary plugin format and shop distribution to protect? Last time I checked, no.. no they don't. Their only source of income is selling Reaper licenses.

To be worth anything, Propellerhead's proprietary plugin format would have to have advantages over VST's, but you've only suggested it has "very little" advantage over VST:

... if Reason did ReWire Master, VST devs would have very little reason to port to Reason,

You're assuming that RE-technology's supposed advantages over VST-technology are "very little reason" for VST devs to port to RE?

[JustSomeGuy]

... Propellerhead would have to go to all the software DAWs (or at least the major ones, Logic, Ableton Live, etc.) and say "We want your DAW to have the option to be a ReWire slave. Oh, and btw you'll have to work with us on getting our software code to work with your DAW to make it happen."

"None of that's true, as Reaper already works fine as a ReWire slave (in Cubase)." - JustSomeGuy
We're talking about Reason being the MASTER and other DAWs the slave… I admit I could be wrong about the software needing to be reworked! Can Reaper be the master and Cubase the slave when it comes to ReWire?

Reaper can be slave or master. Cubase can be master but refuses to be slave.

[selig]

Reaper's Justin (CEO) once made an often-quoted statement that Reaper would never support VST3. He worded it more strongly than Propellerheads ever did (Propellerheads has said VST "sucks" but they've never said they won't support it in the future). And now Reaper supports VST3.

Does Justin/Cockos have a proprietary plugin format and shop distribution to protect? Last time I checked, no.. no they don't. Their only source of income is selling Reaper licenses.

As if Propellerhead's proprietary plugin format is worth a dime? To be worth something, it would have to have advantages over VST's, but you've only suggested it has "very little" advantage over VST:

... if Reason did ReWire Master, VST devs would have very little reason to port to Reason,

You're assuming that RE-technology's supposed advantages over VST-technology are "very little reason" for VST devs to port to RE?

There are two cases here:

Case A) RE-technology is better than VST technology. In this case, customers have incentive to choose RE's over VST's, and so developers have financial incentive to offer customers RE's.

Case B) RE-technology isn't really better than VST technology. If this is the case, customers are going to choose VST's whether or not Propellerhead approves, and if Propellerhead continues trying to profit by crippling their own product, the market will destroy Propellerhead.

There is a third case IMO, one where RE technology is more or less on par with VST technology, just as Reason is on par with other DAWs for many folks (just a different way of looking at things). I don't mean to say that Reason or REs are totally equal in every way to their counterparts, just that they BOTH can create great music and many folks seem to prefer one over the other.

My Perspective:
There have been multiple plugin formats through the years, with one of them never getting destroyed by the market due to the presence of another. Myself, I've been using plugins since DAY ONE back when Pro Tools first introduced the concept, and I have NEVER purchased or used a single VST in all those years. OTOH, I've used (and spent THOUSANDS of dollars on) TDM, RTAS, AAX, AU, and RE plugins through all this time, so I'm not one that believes VSTs rule the world or are in any way spell the "end" of all the other formats for any reason.

As for hosts adopting VST, the two other DAWs I've used the most (and actually owned myself) over the years have never directly supported VSTs, and like Reason probably NEVER WILL! These two apps, Pro Tools and Logic, are arguably at the top of the DAW list for many folks, and their lack of VST support has not destroyed them in any way I can see (so far, at least).

Just some personal perspective from an old fart, FWIW…

[JustSomeGuy]

You can't stay in business by denying customers what they want. You'd need a Berlin Wall and a Stasi to deal with the customers who try to buy the VST's they want. Propellerhead doesn't have a Berlin Wall or a Stasi to enforce their will, so their supposed business plan of stopping customers from buying VST's isn't viable.

[normen]

You can't stay in business by denying customers what they want.

This isn't true. (but thats not a statement regarding any of the other discussion here)

[JustSomeGuy]

Myself, I've been using plugins since DAY ONE back when Pro Tools first introduced the concept, and I have NEVER purchased or used a single VST in all those years. OTOH, I've used (and spent THOUSANDS of dollars on) TDM, RTAS, AAX, AU, and RE plugins through all this time, so I'm not one that believes VSTs rule the world or are in any way spell the "end" of all the other formats for any reason.

Everything I've said about "VST", I mean about RTAS, AAX, and AU too. All in a different league from RE. You didn't need "VST" in particular to get convolution reverb ten years ago. RTAS, AAX, and AU did it too. Everyone did convolution reverb ten years ago -- except Propellerhead's awesome proprietary format.

As for hosts adopting VST, the two other DAWs I've used the most (and actually owned myself) over the years have never directly supported VSTs, and like Reason probably NEVER WILL! These two apps, Pro Tools and Logic, are arguably at the top of the DAW list for many folks, and their lack of VST support has not destroyed them in any way I can see (so far, at least).

I don't see RTAS, AAX, AU as lesser than VST. With that cleared up, though, my points about Propellerhead still stand.

[ljekio]

Roger that. I was just asking because I don't have any recent experience with that.

When plugin crashed in the Reaper you can just delete process with frozen plugin.
If with Cubase most likely you doing to save project in Reason and delete both processes of Cubase and Reason.

[JustSomeGuy]

Roger that. I was just asking because I don't have any recent experience with that.

When plugin crashed in the Reaper you can just delete process with frozen plugin.
If with Cubase most likely you doing to save project in Reason and delete both processes of Cubase and Reason.

I'll point out there are lots and lots of VST, RTAS, etc., which never ever crash. The ones that do crash, hopefully the developer fixes them and if he doesn't, you don't have to keep using them.

[normen]

if he doesn't, you don't have to keep using them.

lol, thats just like saying "if it doesn't work in Reason you don't have to keep using it" xD

[JustSomeGuy]

if he doesn't, you don't have to keep using them.

lol, thats just like saying "if it doesn't work in Reason you don't have to keep using it" xD

The ones that do crash, hopefully the developer fixes them and if he doesn't, you don't have to keep using them, and there are probably tons of alternative plugins which do the same thing since we're talking about VST's not RE's.

[joeyluck]

have you considered that Reason might not be the DAW for you?

[JustSomeGuy]

if he doesn't, you don't have to keep using them.

lol, thats just like saying "if it doesn't work in Reason you don't have to keep using it" xD

I'll give Propellerhead credit where it's due: No Reason user ever had a convolution-reverb crash on in him from 2005 - 2014, a period when VST users may have had occasional crashes from convolution reverbs.

[JustSomeGuy]

have you considered that Reason might not be the DAW for you?

back at you

you know how much of a crap I give if some weird fanatic is distressed by the idea of Propellerhead improving its product? I understand, you're a fanatic and you feel your job is to defend your beloved DAW's flaws and rail against suggestions that your DAW could be improved. That's what fanboys do; it's just that they don't matter.

[joeyluck]

have you considered that Reason might not be the DAW for you?

back at you

Ok. It's the only DAW I use. It is the DAW for me.

[normen]

The ones that do crash, hopefully the developer fixes them and if he doesn't, you don't have to keep using them, and there are probably tons of alternative plugins which do the same thing since we're talking about VST's not RE's.

Most complaints from people wanting certain VSTs I see are about things that have RE alternatives "that do the same thing".

[joeyluck]

have you considered that Reason might not be the DAW for you?

back at you

you know how much of a crap I give if some weird fanatic is distressed by the idea of Propellerhead improving its product? I understand, you're a fanatic and you feel your job is to defend your beloved DAW's flaws and rail against suggestions that your DAW could be improved. That's what fanboys do; it's just that they don't matter.

I now see your edit and will respond to your edit. I make a living using Reason. That's not called a fanboy—that's called a satisfied customer.

Back at you.

[normen]

A dumb customer would be somebody who buys a product that explicitly says it doesn't do what he wants and then goes about complaining that it should I guess..

[JustSomeGuy]

A dumb customer would be somebody who buys a product that explicitly says it doesn't do what he wants and then goes about complaining that it should I guess..

Someone criticized my DAW, and that make me sad, scared, confused, and angry. To me, my DAW isn't just a piece of software. It's like a wife that I make love to. When you say my DAW isn't perfect, I hate you and I want to fight you.

[ljekio]

Gents, I dare say that this thread is not about the VST format and VST support in the Reason.

[normen]

Someone criticized my DAW, and that make me sad, scared, confused, and angry. To me, my DAW isn't just a piece of software. It's like a wife that I make love to. When you say my DAW isn't perfect, I hate you and I want to fight you.

Nobody criticized your DAW.. Just wondering why you use Reason when it clearly doesn't do what you want - and if theres a feature you like about it why don't you go and complain about it being added to some DAW that has VST support? As you said yourself, if its broken for you you don't have to use it.

I for one wouldn't use VSTs in Reason even if they were supported because to me Reason is about the unified workflow when doing creative things. I use other DAWs when I plainly want to do simple mixing with my native plugins..

[JustSomeGuy]

and if theres a feature you like about it why don't you go and complain about it being added to some DAW that has VST support?

I wish the people criticizing my DAW would go away. I want my mamma. I'm scared.