How propellerheads is similar to McDonalds

[groggy1]

Weird topic name, right?

McDonald's recently had some struggles as competitors were turning up the heat. What did it do as as a last resort?

It made breakfast available during all business hours, not just till 11am.

I think this was a change they had been keeping in their back pocket for years. And it appears to be working as a marketing strategy.


I thing propellerheads is similar: as long as they can make money on their Re store, all is good. But when that's over, it makes sense to support vst and try to crush the wider Daw market as the NEXT step.

Just a thought.

[joeyluck]

But McDonald's already served breakfast. Now they simply serve more breakfast. So a better example would be an update to the RE SDK

[joeyluck]

Actually, the moment Reason introduces VST support is the moment it loses any traction at being competitive. Right now it can clearly distinguish itself as a very unique DAW.

VST support means it would enter into the wash of DAWs that all seem incredibly similar and often indistinguishable. VST support means REs lose traction as few developers are willing to port their plugins to RE format when they can tell users to just buy the VST. So, one of the things that makes Reason unique loses it's footing. So, I have to disagree.

[GRIFTY]

props is similar to mcdonalds because they both have delicious fries.





wait.......

[Ostermilk]

Actual hot fries in V9?

Man, it's 2016 and every other fast food vendor can manage to supply hot fries.

I hate the food here, I only come here regularly to remind everyone that Burger King is soooo much better out of a sense of social duty.

Yep McD's seems like a good analogy to me.

[OldGoat]

Why do so many people use the plural?
Propellerheads ist a one-hit-wonder band, Propellerhead is the company...just wondering...

Regarding the topic: I think Propellerhead is still on a good way with the RE-Concept, what some of us might miss are some High-Quality-REs that can compete with the libraries that are available for Kontakt or other samplers, e.g. stuff like Samplemodelling's "The Trumpet" or VSL.
Still I do not know if this is related to missing functionalities in the SDK or the fact that Reason isn't that popular.

[raccoonboy]

Why do so many people use the plural?
Propellerheads ist a one-hit-wonder band, Propellerhead is the company...just wondering...

their website is propellerheads.se

I think in some situations it just roles off the tongue easier

[zeebot]

Oh look, another VST support thread

[chimp_spanner]

I was going to say that I'm with Joey on this and that I'd struggle to see how it'd actually work, and I do kind of feel that way for the most part. Buuuuut, his point about uniqueness did strike me. Reason could present a unique way of using otherwise familiar VSTs, which could actually be a huge selling point. Imagine being able to drive parameters of your VSTs with the mod envelope or LFO or gate of a different synth, or something like Shape, or any of the other awesome modulation/curve/pattern tools Reason has. I don't know if there's another DAW that would allow you to do that (I know nothing about Ableton so maybe they've already got that covered?). Plus Reason's parameter automation is by far the best I've used. If Cubase stored parameters in parts/containers, I'd be so happy. But it doesn't. Soooo I go back to Reason time and again. I wish I could automate synths like Dune 2, Serum and Massive half as well in Cubase as I could in Reason.

As to how it'd work, I'd envisage some kind of EMI/Combinator crossover. A rack with assignable controls and CV that can be mapped to the device's host automation IDs, which represents the device in the rack, but with a pop out editor window. Multiple outputs for stuff like Superior Drummer.

Re's would still have the edge in that they'd allow for two way interaction between devices. I can't see how you'd get envelope or mod out of a VST into the Reason rack, so that would still be an incentive for people to get Re's if they want that level of control.

All of this plus an SDK that allows for more complex UIs (with pullout panels and multiple pages) and sample loading...man...I'm actually a little giddy thinking about it

Even though I know it probably won't happen. And ya know, ultimately, I still enjoy Reason for the things it does that no other DAW can. It's certainly no barrier to creativity for me that I can't use VSTs. But I'd love to see Reason explode in a big way. If it was implemented right (as in my way, clearly haha) I think it'd be killer!

But, enough day dreaming. Back to work!

[chk071]

I was going to say that I'm with Joey on this and that I'd struggle to see how it'd actually work, and I do kind of feel that way for the most part. Buuuuut, his point about uniqueness did strike me. Reason could present a unique way of using otherwise familiar VSTs, which could actually be a huge selling point. Imagine being able to drive parameters of your VSTs with the mod envelope or LFO or gate of a different synth, or something like Shape, or any of the other awesome modulation/curve/pattern tools Reason has. I don't know if there's another DAW that would allow you to do that (I know nothing about Ableton so maybe they've already got that covered?).

Reason wouldn't allow to do that either, unless they change the VST SDK to do so (otherwise any other DAW with VST support would already allow these things, right?). All the routing stuff in Reason is only possible with the internal devices, or RE's. That's why it's so difficult to grasp why the hell people come up with VST support so frequently. It's completely pointless as there's a gazillion DAW's out there which have VST support since centuries, and offer a lot more DAW and sequencer functionality than Reason does now.

Not to mention that that would totally kill RE's, and PH's shop. Surely something PH wouldn't want.

[chimp_spanner]

Reason wouldn't allow to do that either, unless they change the VST SDK to do so (otherwise any other DAW with VST support would already allow these things, right?). All the routing stuff in Reason is only possible with the internal devices, or RE's. That's why it's so difficult to grasp why the hell people come up with VST support so frequently. It's completely pointless as there's a gazillion DAW's out there which have VST support since centuries, and offer a lot more DAW and sequencer functionality than Reason does now.

Oh yeah I get that, that's why I suggested the EMI style "container". The CV inputs would be translated to host automation values (which would normally be triggered by automation lanes). The same way that the EMI takes CV and pipes it out through MIDI. So the rack device would be the "bridge" between Reason and the VST. Seems like it'd be simple. Ish. But perhaps I'm oversimplifying it.

[normen]

And VST complainers are similar to people demanding a Big King at McDonalds instead of going to Burger King...

[chimp_spanner]

To be clear though, I'm definitely not in the VST "complainer" camp. I think Reason is strong enough to stand on its own, as evidenced by the fact I spend half my time in Cubase Pro 8 and the other half in Reason because it allows me to do things I couldn't otherwise. I was just fantasizing about how implementation might work. There are reasons not to though (piracy and killing the Re market for example).

[Tincture]

I could do with a McDonalds to sit in while I wait for my licence to update. I had to update 3 times during peak times Fri and sat evening and the shortest was 1h 38mins I know now cause in my new setup.a clock turns on with my pc.

[Skullture]

This topic made me hungry, not in MCdo though..

[Gulale]

I believe you have overlooked this Re thing in general. Relatively speaking Reason extension hasn't grown up good enough to die to began with. Allowing VST will bring too much users than killing Reason by itself. The rack extension market has kind of saturated. I'm not trying to be negative but for me this Re and Reason unbreakable talk are just simple bull crap. You saw what happen to Ilok 2 apparently everything can get broken. They both use similar kind of method server and dongle yet the ilok got hacked. Because breaking Ilok worth the time. Breaking propellerhead activation system for what? Softube? The more the merrier. You will see once it reaches the pick like Ilok2.

About VST, People who enjoy reason will benefit from having exclusively VST support in reason. Not to mention those free goodies that can compete with over priced products. Look at how much Propellerheads FM Synthesizer costs and look at this free baby. Having VST will benefit both party. When people are happy they tend to support the other way round. And in fact that will make Reason noticeable unique and the ability to have VST by itself is a bonus.

[4filegate]

The Treason of Images - the biggest toy sales worldwide even at Mc Donalds.

[avasopht]

It's easy to fail to notice the big picture.

When the SDK has matured, future John, Kobe and Sasha won't care that Uhe's latest synth wasn't available in 2016 any more than new musician today couldn't care less about Reason/Record not having plugins like FET in 2012.

They're not building Rack Extensions as a sudden reaction to needing to win over VST users by SDK 2, but instead are driven by a vision for a plugin format that allows developers to write once, run anywhere, for undo in the DAW to perform undo in the plugin, for scalable guis with built in skeumorphic support for developers, for integration with the versatile reason environment and designed with the end in mind.

Given Reason has happily allowed us to create great music for the better part 15 years without any plugins at all, I can't see how Rack Extensions can't be anything more than a valuable addition.

I do think however that providing a way to build VSTs with the same codebase and managing copy protection and licencing would go a long way in bringing us more Rack Extensions.

The Rack Extension's 3d GUI tools walk all over JUCE and every other VST GUI framework. It was so easy to get my code running with a skeumorphic GUI.

When it comes to porting, some codebases are better suited to it than others. You can have the best SDK in the world but if someone's code is dependant on undesired RE SDK functionality then it's going to require some refactoring.

[chk071]

Allowing VST will bring too much users than killing Reason by itself.

I don't see any reason why i would prefer Reason to any VST host i own. VST hosts are light years ahead in terms of implementation and functionality. And again, IT WON'T HAPPEN. PH just implemented RE's, they won't be so stupid and kill a platform where they are able to take 30% of each company's sale. Time to wake up really. These are real first world problems. If you want VST's, grab a VST host and go. Reason is what it is. A in-the-box solution like Rebirth also was. If PH gave that up, which they won't, Reason would be completely uninteresting for me.

[MannequinRaces]

But when that's over, it makes sense to support vst and try to crush the wider Daw market as the NEXT step.

Go take some business and marketing classes and you might see that that this makes zero sense whatsoever.

[Vyckeil]

Actually, the moment Reason introduces VST support is the moment it loses any traction at being competitive. Right now it can clearly distinguish itself as a very unique DAW.

VST support means it would enter into the wash of DAWs that all seem incredibly similar and often indistinguishable. VST support means REs lose traction as few developers are willing to port their plugins to RE format when they can tell users to just buy the VST. So, one of the things that makes Reason unique loses it's footing. So, I have to disagree.

What kind of ass-backwards fanboi logic is that? Reason won't lose anything if VSTs are implemented, it's just going to be Reason + VST. If REs die because of VSTs, then it deserves to die because market forces and consumers decided that VSTs are better. But I strongly believe that this will never happen, because REs are really superior in the Reason rack. It's the reason why we love Reason, the rack functions are freaking awesome, so saying that REs won't be as good because of VSTs is complete nonsense.

Do you know what I do if I want to use VSTs? I use another DAW. And the more I use this other DAW, the less I use Reason and the less I want to spend on it. A lot of people don't buy Reason simply because of the lack of VST support. How would introducing VST support "lose any traction at being competitive"???

[chk071]

Actually, the moment Reason introduces VST support is the moment it loses any traction at being competitive. Right now it can clearly distinguish itself as a very unique DAW.

VST support means it would enter into the wash of DAWs that all seem incredibly similar and often indistinguishable. VST support means REs lose traction as few developers are willing to port their plugins to RE format when they can tell users to just buy the VST. So, one of the things that makes Reason unique loses it's footing. So, I have to disagree.

What kind of ass-backwards fanboi logic is that? Reason won't lose anything if VSTs are implemented, it's just going to be Reason + VST. If REs die because of VSTs, then it deserves to die because market forces and consumers decided that VSTs are better. But I strongly believe that this will never happen, because REs are really superior in the Reason rack. It's the reason why we love Reason, the rack functions are freaking awesome, so saying that REs won't be as good because of VSTs is complete nonsense.

Do you know what I do if I want to use VSTs? I use another DAW. And the more I use this other DAW, the less I use Reason and the less I want to spend on it. A lot of people don't buy Reason simply because of the lack of VST support. How would introducing VST support "lose any traction at being competitive"???

I agree with ypur post. For the "lose any traction at being competitive" part, well, as i wrote, other DAW's have VST support since decades, and they have a lot of functionality obviously not present in Reason, because it works a bit different. E.g. you can use combinators, you can do complex routings, so there is always a workaround to do something which is solidly implemented in other DAW's. Basically, what VST support would do is rob Reason from what makes it unique, its base. Frankly, the reason to use Reason (no pun intended ) wouldn't be there then, as other DAW's are far ahead in terms of VST implementation, and the respective workflow. WTH is a combinator worth in Reason if you have VST's? What's with all the routing possibilites which won't be available for VST's? Pointless really.

[normen]

And the more I use this other DAW, the less I use Reason and the less I want to spend on it. A lot of people don't buy Reason simply because of the lack of VST support. How would introducing VST support "lose any traction at being competitive"???

Because as he said already it would be a mediocre DAW compared to other DAWs. Why would anyone use Reason if you make it just another VST host? Why would anyone create a RE if he can just tell people to use the VST version?

To underline this, when Reason was "just" a synth Rack nobody compared it to other DAWs - as soon as they added audio recording people started to compare it to other DAWs. If it becomes a DAW with VST support this leveling would go even further and we end up with a DAW that not even the developers love anymore, just like 80% of all DAWs. Just let the Props do what they think is best for their software and buy it if you like it, leave it if you don't, whats so hard about that? Thats what you do with bands as well, what idiot goes to a bands forum and tells them "guys you gotta use dem Kemper amps and use more C Major"...

[chk071]

To underline this, when Reason was "just" a synth Rack nobody compared it to other DAWs - as soon as they added audio recording people started to compare it to other DAWs. If it becomes a DAW with VST support this leveling would go even further and we end up with a DAW that not even the developers love anymore, just like 80% of all DAWs. Just let the Props do what they think is best for their software and buy it if you like it, leave it if you don't, whats so hard about that? Thats what you do with bands as well, what idiot goes to a bands forum and tells them "guys you gotta use dem Kemper amps and use more C Major"...

+1000

[gak]

I'd like a kemper.