Scales & Chords - 7th degree of major scale

[spencer335]

Hi all -

Question on the new Scales and Chords Player

I'm surprised with the chords that the player spits out. Assuming 3 note triads and the key of C, I'd expect a B diminished chord, not a Bm#5, when I press B. This even happens if I create C major as a "custom" scale rather than from the drop down.

As of now, I can only get a diminished triad from the harmonic minor scale.

Is there a workaround or is anyone else annoyed by this? Do I need a music theory feature request?

[Gaja]

Yeah I was confused by that too...

[swamptooth]

Me three

[WongoTheSane]

I'm not very good in musical theory but I think the #5 makes sense in most cases where you need it. For instance, say you want to modulate to a Cm scale through ii°-V-i (V is major because the third will resolve to the tonic of the following i). in this case, replacing the b5 with a #5 in the ii will allow it to resolve to the major third of the V, so the voicing will go A#/B/C and will be easier to detect. Try both versions:

- Dm°7 / G7 / Cm
- Dm#5/7 / G7 / Cm

The second one sounds more "musical" to my ears. I'm not sure that's the only reason, but it's very common in jazz.

[spencer335]

- Dm°7 / G7 / Cm
- Dm#5/7 / G7 / Cm

The second one sounds more "musical" to my ears. I'm not sure that's the only reason, but it's very common in jazz.

The voice leading works in your example, but that progression isn't possible in the major scale mode (of Scales and Chords) without hitting the Alter button on the middle chord. The default (sticking with C major) is
Bm7#5 Em7 Am7
If I work in Cminor, we get
Dm7#5 Gm7 Cm7

I guess the answer is that Props made an unconventional choice here for some reason. I wish there was a button somewhere to turn this off ...

[Marco Raaphorst]

I think it's correct. It's what we call half diminished. But Bm7b5 would be the correct chord name. The Props have named many chords in a weird way, would never have done this myself. I would choose Real Book jazz theory for correct naming.

B diminshed by the way is: B (root), D, F, Ab (doesn't fit C major!)

[spencer335]

I think it's correct. It's what we call half diminished. But Bm7b5 would be the correct chord name. The Props have named many chords in a weird way, would never have done this myself. I would choose Real Book jazz theory for correct naming.

B diminshed by the way is: B (root), D, F, Ab (doesn't fit C major!)

This is the wrong chord, Props actually used a somewhat reasonable (pun acknowledged, not intended) name for the chord that is there. Props gave us BDGA where I'd expect BDFA (half-diminished) in the 4 note chords and BDG where I'd want BDF (diminished triad) in the 3 note voicings.

[Marco Raaphorst]

Sorry I see now its not a B with a flat 5! Yes wrong. Did you report it as bug?

[spencer335]

I will - but I'm guessing this is a feature, not a bug. Not even sure if they'd change it now that there are songs out there using the current solution ... I'd hope for an option to change it, there's plenty of room on the back!

[Marco Raaphorst]

I will - but I'm guessing this is a feature, not a bug. Not even sure if they'd change it now that there are songs out there using the current solution ... I'd hope for an option to change it, there's plenty of room on the back!

I hope they do change it. Simply faulty. #5 or b5 is a HUGE thing

[spencer335]

Heard back from Props support - the issue has been reported to developers but is believed to be an aesthetic choice in the player's design rather than a bug.

If anyone else is annoyed by this and misses their diminished and half-diminished chords, please write in and let the Props know! I'll add a feature request here as well ...

[Marco Raaphorst]

Heard back from Props support - the issue has been reported to developers but is believed to be an aesthetic choice in the player's design rather than a bug.

If anyone else is annoyed by this and misses their diminished and half-diminished chords, please write in and let the Props know! I'll add a feature request here as well ...

That. Is. Crazy!

[BPGeez]

Diminished chords suck! Long live Props

[spencer335]

Diminished chords suck! Long live Props

You're only saying that because you haven't heard them through enough complex Double Arpeggiator patterns yet!

[Marco Raaphorst]

Diminished chords suck! Long live Props

half diminished we are talking here. and that stuff you need to modulate back to a minor scale. try Dm7b5 G7+5 > Cm

[BPGeez]

Diminished chords suck! Long live Props

half diminished we are talking here. and that stuff you need to modulate back to a minor scale. try Dm7b5 G7+5 > Cm

Yea Marco!! I'm obviously just talking shit cuz I don't do a lot of modulation in my own music (as of yet). I was able to try this progression out (on my handy AutoArp which I love sooo much) and I do say it sounds pretty amazing. Now I know that this is a 2-5-1 progression, but can I have a little of your input on its context? This is transposing between C Maj and C Min? And all u have to do is flat the 5th in the 2??

[WongoTheSane]

Now I know that this is a 2-5-1 progression, but can I have a little of your input on its context? This is transposing between C Maj and C Min? And all u have to do is flat the 5th in the 2??

You can use II-V-I for pretty much any modulation between two not-too distant scales (1 and 2 away IIRC). The only thing to remember is that you calculate those degrees from the destination modulation, not from the source one. For instance, if you want to modulate from C to F, your II-V-I will be:

Gm (second degree of F scale) - C (fifth degree) - F (first)

(generally, you also add the seventh to the V, so you should play a C7, but be aware that in the scale of F, the C7 is a dominant 7th, so the seventh is a Bb and not a B as you would play in the scale of C).

But if you want to modulate TO a minor scale - whatever scale you come from - your II chord will have to be diminished, because it's perfect fifth is outside of the scale. You can either lower it (diminished) or raise it (half-dimished) and generally you add a seventh as well.

Now, the kicker is that in this case, the V should be minor in theory, because the fifth degree of a minor scale is minor. BUT playing a major instead sounds incredibly nice. So, say you want to modulate from Cm to Gm for instance, your II-V-I becomes:

A7b5 (or A7+5, they sound a little different, try them both) - D7 - Gm

(be aware it's not a hard rule, just an easy starting point. In reality good musicians bend those rules all the time, search for "chord substitutions" if you want to go further - lifetime rabbit hole warning).

[spencer335]

Diminished chords suck! Long live Props

half diminished we are talking here. and that stuff you need to modulate back to a minor scale. try Dm7b5 G7+5 > Cm

Yea Marco!! I'm obviously just talking shit cuz I don't do a lot of modulation in my own music (as of yet). I was able to try this progression out (on my handy AutoArp which I love sooo much) and I do say it sounds pretty amazing. Now I know that this is a 2-5-1 progression, but can I have a little of your input on its context? This is transposing between C Maj and C Min? And all u have to do is flat the 5th in the 2??

I'll bite ...

The main observation here is that it is a ii-V-i, and you've identified that already. You can often use the ii-V to lead to the i (or major I) chord in a "jazzy" sort of way whether you are modulating or not (and using the half-dimished as opposed to regular minor 7 for a minor ii V i is just an alternate way to do that, implying a harmonic or melodic minor sound - depending how you use it). You certainly can get from C major to C minor without a ii V if you want!

[Marco Raaphorst]

Diminished chords suck! Long live Props

half diminished we are talking here. and that stuff you need to modulate back to a minor scale. try Dm7b5 G7+5 > Cm

Yea Marco!! I'm obviously just talking shit cuz I don't do a lot of modulation in my own music (as of yet). I was able to try this progression out (on my handy AutoArp which I love sooo much) and I do say it sounds pretty amazing. Now I know that this is a 2-5-1 progression, but can I have a little of your input on its context? This is transposing between C Maj and C Min? And all u have to do is flat the 5th in the 2??

Yes the second step in C minor is D-7b5 and you can then play G7 or G7#5 (the 5 step). But if you want to modulate from C major toe C minor it is so related, adding the flat 5 to D minor might be tricky. Since you are only modulating from Major to Minor in C, you can simply use D-7 and then G7 or G7#5.

Makes sense?

[BPGeez]

Wingo, Spence, Marco, much obliged!! Do u guys know of any examples where this is done in popular music (or any easily accessible YouTube video where it would be easy to understand)? I really would like to stay incorporating these different types of modulation. I've heard of modulating to the relative minor (C to Am), but didn't know C to Cm was really possible (pleasing).

[WongoTheSane]

I've heard of modulating to the relative minor (C to Am), but didn't know C to Cm was really possible (pleasing).

It's called parallel modulation. For instance, Sinatra's "When I was seventeen" does this: it's in Dm, but switches to D at the end of each verse, giving it a haunting feeling:

I don't know of any particular tutorial, but simply watching a few hours of any video you can find by googling "modulation scales" or "modulation keys" should get you up to speed (provided you already have a good grasp of the circle of fifths).

[BPGeez]

Haha! That's one of my favorite songs of all time!! Thanks Wongo

[spencer335]

BTW - recent Props tutorial combining Note Echo and Scales & Chords provides a clue for a weird workaround (e.g. it works, but should still be fixed!).

1) Program a min7 chord shape in Note Echo as in the video
2) Pick the appropriate major scale in S&C
3) On your keyboard, play a half step above all maj chords (e.g. I, IV, V) and the correct note for all min/dim chords and you get the expected harmony!

[sonja]

This player isn't very useful to me because of a complete lack of voice leading- is there any "intelligent" feature I'm not realizing that makes different voicings possible?

[EdGrip]

I must admit I felt that Scales & Chords lacked depth when I first tried it, and I still do. I want all the weird jazz stuff, served up on a plate.

E.g. means "for example", and is different from i.e, which means "that is", as in "that is to say...".

You'd use e.g. to give an example of something, e.g "Daft Punk use filters heavily in lots of tracks, e.g in Rollin' & Scratchin'".

You'd use i.e. anywhere you're adding some extra explanation, i.e anywhere you might use the phrase "that is to say".