The bitter truth about all those discussions about what DAW is better

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Reasonistas
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15 Sep 2016

Creativemind wrote:I enjoy recording guitar and vocals in Reason but I am a novice really. It probably isn't as advanced as Cubase, Logic or Pro Tools in that department by a long chalk.

I do find though on many levels Reason frustrates me when simple features aren't there. Some of which I listed above. I ain't a programmer or coder though so I don't know how hard they would be to implement but sometimes it baffles me when we're on about the 17th version of Reason aren't we if you include point updates and we still can't mute notes in the midi editor or read volume related things in dB sometimes. It does sometimes make me think:-

A) Are the Props milking it?
B) Not gonna implement these things?

Are we still gonna be waiting for ganged faders on the main mixer or mute / unmute of notes in the midi editor in Reason 11?

EDIT - Just seen it on the Reasonistas site. We're on the 30th version of Reason.

Reason 1.0
Reason 1.0.1
Reason 2.0
Reason 2.0.1
Reason 2.5
Reason 3.0
Reason 3.0.3
Reason 3.0.4
Reason 3.0.5
Reason 4.0
Reason 4.0.1
Reason 5.0
Reason 5.0.1
Reason 6.0
Reason 6.5
Reason 6.5.1
Reason 6.5.2
Reason 6.5.3
Reason 7.0
Reason 7.0.1
Reason 7.1
Reason 7.1.1
Reason 7.1.2
Reason 8.0
Reason 8.1
Reason 8.2
Reason 8.3
Reason 8.3.1
Reason 8.3.2
Reason 9
Actually, there have been 31 updates now that we have Reason 9.1: http://reasonistas.wixsite.com/reasonis ... -history-1
Reasonistas Reason Version History.png
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miscend
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15 Sep 2016

Well in the last couple of decades technology is what has been driving forward innovation in music. Most modern music genres would not have existed without advances in technology. Therefore technical capabilities do matter.

Would House Music, Techno and Acid have been invented without the 909 and 303. What of Hiphop without Roger Linn samplers/drum machines and the Roland 808?

Think of it. Would Dubstep have been invented without FM8 and Massive? What would dance music sound like without Hoover sounds and Reece basses? The Reece sound came about as a result of developments in hardware samplers.

Would T-pain have made a career without Autotune?

For singer song writer stuff, I agree, all you need to write Unchained Melody is a guitar or piano. However you cannot write Acid House with a guitar.

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jam-s
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15 Sep 2016

But you can do trance and dance quite well on guitar:




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miscend
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15 Sep 2016

Nice playing on those videos

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Seckin
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19 Sep 2016

I've read all the responses. Apart from some valuable input, most of them made me think that something must be wrong with me, or maybe that I'm really just the stick-in-the-mud like one of the users said, or maybe I'm just out of context.

I judge musicality by what's written in sheet music, as part of my profession. When you read through the sheet there's no eq'uing, no mastering, no mixing in there. You don't think about how much reverb you should put on that track. It's just music in its purest form. When I talk about music, I talk about that and only that. Surely I would not dare to say that audio quality is trivial. Only a fool would say that. And that's not a new thing, 500 years ago luthiers did their best to make their instrument sound as good as possible. But today's world of music constantly reminds me of what one of my professors in the 90s had forecasted about the future of music, along the lines of: "In the future music technology will become widely available and that's a good thing, but when true talent becomes a rarity, there will come a time when the distinction between "music" and "sound" will diminish to the point of zero."

I think that's part of what's happening today. I don't hear a lot of "music" nowadays but I hear "sound" wherever I turn my head to. Does anybody here really believe that the masses would tell a 100% quality mix from an 80% one? Really? Unlike what one of the users here wrote in response to my post (He wrote this: "For higher-tier vocal and audio edits, inc. #1 piano ballads and international releases, there's Pro Tools. For everything else, and national releases (because they are a different matter, there's Reason."), if you come up with a beautiful tune, you can make it into an international hit in Reason, because the tune will tell. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. And for those who cannot come up with beautiful tunes (e.g. most of the top "international" singers today), I wish them good luck mixing and mastering what they have at hand to 200%. I do not think I will be enjoying the output no matter what, but that's just me, some stick-in-the-mud with an old-fashioned taste in music.
If you can't make a hit with Malstrom, Subtractor and Redrum, you can't make a hit at all.

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moneykube
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19 Sep 2016

my fisher price daw is the bomb.... got a mic... keys.... but no midi... the colors are to die for
:mrgreen:
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avasopht
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19 Sep 2016

Seckin wrote:I've read all the responses. Apart from some valuable input, most of them made me think that something must be wrong with me, or maybe that I'm really just the stick-in-the-mud like one of the users said, or maybe I'm just out of context.

I judge musicality by what's written in sheet music, as part of my profession. When you read through the sheet there's no eq'uing, no mastering, no mixing in there. You don't think about how much reverb you should put on that track. It's just music in its purest form. When I talk about music, I talk about that and only that. Surely I would not dare to say that audio quality is trivial. Only a fool would say that. And that's not a new thing, 500 years ago luthiers did their best to make their instrument sound as good as possible. But today's world of music constantly reminds me of what one of my professors in the 90s had forecasted about the future of music, along the lines of: "In the future music technology will become widely available and that's a good thing, but when true talent becomes a rarity, there will come a time when the distinction between "music" and "sound" will diminish to the point of zero."

I think that's part of what's happening today. I don't hear a lot of "music" nowadays but I hear "sound" wherever I turn my head to. Does anybody here really believe that the masses would tell a 100% quality mix from an 80% one? Really? Unlike what one of the users here wrote in response to my post (He wrote this: "For higher-tier vocal and audio edits, inc. #1 piano ballads and international releases, there's Pro Tools. For everything else, and national releases (because they are a different matter, there's Reason."), if you come up with a beautiful tune, you can make it into an international hit in Reason, because the tune will tell. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. And for those who cannot come up with beautiful tunes (e.g. most of the top "international" singers today), I wish them good luck mixing and mastering what they have at hand to 200%. I do not think I will be enjoying the output no matter what, but that's just me, some stick-in-the-mud with an old-fashioned taste in music.


Here is a cover I made of a Timbaland's instrumental. I've not copied the drum pattern exactly, but one thing is certain - change the sounds and the hip hop heads will immediately hear the difference.

Sure, the masses will not identify a good mix from a bad mix anymore than they will spot bad film grading or low quality audio. They will feel that little bit less connected with the creation. They will not know why. Something just will not feel the same.

A good way of analysing a song is by looking at Harmony, Arrangement (including effects, mixing, structure), Melody (bass, vox, key phrases) and Rhythm (drums/perc plus the rhythm of the melodies and harmonies).

Some songs are heavily focused on the arrangement. A brilliant example of this is Snoop Dogg's Drop It Like It's Hot, or Busta Rhyme's Touch It. The latter is mostly held together by one drum rhythm played by alternating between the kit every 4 bars.

So yes, if your track / sound is heavily focused on the melody, rhythm and harmony but not much invested in effects, then by all means, you could get away with general midi sounds. If on the other hand the core essence is in the effects and the arrangement is otherwise fairly simple, then no, you will hear the emptiness.

And bear in mind there are many tracks now where the music is just keys held for the bar, with the effects and automation playing the grunt work. We're not all 4 piece bands.

JerrelTheKing
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19 Sep 2016

@avasopht Perfect assessment.

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TheGodOfRainbows
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19 Sep 2016

Noel G. wrote:Actually, there have been 31 updates now that we have Reason 9.1: http://reasonistas.wixsite.com/reasonis ... -history-1
Reasonistas Reason Version History.png
Firstly, I love this version history list, complete with time intervals between releases. Until I saw your list, I had my own that I tried to cobble together by Googling, because I'm the kind of person who will study these time intervals, and try to estimate the next update releases, cuz I'm a massive Reason fanboy and I always look forward to the next update.

Back to the discussion. For people who want to recreate a very specific "that sound" from whatever song or genre, then I can understand how Reason might disappoint you. But for me, that has never been an issue because, I've always been focused on melody, harmony, chord progressions, and arrangements. I've never really cared about replicating EXACTLY some synth or drum machine, because my focus is on the composition. As long as things sound good, I'm happy.

I think that's what a lot of it comes down to: are you someone who wants to create very genre specific electronic music that MUST have THAT sound? Or, are you focused on the composition, with less priority on recreating a popular sound?

The workflow complaints however, like better audio editing, I think everyone can agree needs improving.

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The_G
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19 Sep 2016

I love Reason--no other DAW (and I've used 3 others extensively) unlocks my creativity like Reason.

The only thing holding it back from being my one and only DAW is lack of support for VSTs/AUs. REs are nice, and there are a few that are wonderful and not available elsewhere (e.g. Jiggery Pokery Steerpike Delay). But as many other people have said, the big dogs are not releasing their plugins in RE format. *AND* even if they did, you'd have to buy it twice to use with Reason and another DAW.

So I connect Reason to Logic via Rewire and do it that way. Not a huge deal, but like I said, if I could just load the VSTs/AUs into the rack, or into a specially designed "rack box" that has all the "wiring" on the back, then I might not use Logic at all.
Cosmopolis, out now: : https://timeslaves.bandcamp.com/album/cosmopolis! Check out the first single, "City Lights:

kitekrazy
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19 Sep 2016

The_G wrote:I love Reason--no other DAW (and I've used 3 others extensively) unlocks my creativity like Reason.

The only thing holding it back from being my one and only DAW is lack of support for VSTs/AUs.
REs are nice, and there are a few that are wonderful and not available elsewhere (e.g. Jiggery Pokery Steerpike Delay). But as many other people have said, the big dogs are not releasing their plugins in RE format. *AND* even if they did, you'd have to buy it twice to use with Reason and another DAW.

So I connect Reason to Logic via Rewire and do it that way. Not a huge deal, but like I said, if I could just load the VSTs/AUs into the rack, or into a specially designed "rack box" that has all the "wiring" on the back, then I might not use Logic at all.
One may effect the other. Maybe the beauty of Reason is the limited choices.

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The_G
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19 Sep 2016

kitekrazy wrote:
The_G wrote:I love Reason--no other DAW (and I've used 3 others extensively) unlocks my creativity like Reason.

The only thing holding it back from being my one and only DAW is lack of support for VSTs/AUs.
REs are nice, and there are a few that are wonderful and not available elsewhere (e.g. Jiggery Pokery Steerpike Delay). But as many other people have said, the big dogs are not releasing their plugins in RE format. *AND* even if they did, you'd have to buy it twice to use with Reason and another DAW.

So I connect Reason to Logic via Rewire and do it that way. Not a huge deal, but like I said, if I could just load the VSTs/AUs into the rack, or into a specially designed "rack box" that has all the "wiring" on the back, then I might not use Logic at all.
One may effect the other. Maybe the beauty of Reason is the limited choices.
If that were the case, then REs would pose the same problem as VSTs. So no--that explanation doesn't hold water for me.

There are two reasons that Reason doesn't support VSTs: Props doesn't want to introduce instability (and does want to ensure that every plugin keeps the overall system stable) and Props wants to make money via their centralized marketplace, a la the Apple App Store.

But if they changed their minds on that, I (and I wager a lot of other people) would be very happy. I do not see it happening any time soon though. And it's not a deal breaker for me--i still love Reason.
Cosmopolis, out now: : https://timeslaves.bandcamp.com/album/cosmopolis! Check out the first single, "City Lights:

HepCat

19 Sep 2016

No offence to any pro audiophile tech wizard keyboard shortcut hyperthread genii, i'm a down to earth fellow, here goes:

Whut i want [just practical stuff that would cause me to ditch other DAWs (i'm running at least 3 at the moment), i am the silent majority of users that DGAF about RTFM and audiophiles can go to jail for all i care, i just want accessible music]:

- Better sequencer zoom (@ user "AttentuationHz" ... please understand that l'm referring to vertical zoom and less clutter with the zoom icons, regardless of keyboard shortcuts, and when i said l want simulated power outtages and fluff in the grating, l was joking, and i even explained i was joking)
- Ability to mess with tracks / blocks during *live playback*
- Headphone cueing system
- Option to draw your own wires as lines, point by point, so that they can also curve around other wires etc. Helpful at least when explaining stuff to other ppl. On that note, perhaps some sort of backward compatibility so Pros can share solutions with ppl with old versions of Reason?
- Reason to act as ReWire host, i mean you guys invented ReWire didn't you?



Whut everyone else also wants (shiny ponies? I dunno it sounds good to me tho):

- Enable VST support via combinator (l don't know how it works and i don't care :) but it sounds good. Tbh i've never caught / used a VST in my life. May do one day. Look i dunno what it's all about but everyone is asking for it so ....
- Curvy modulation lines, or something?

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The_G
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19 Sep 2016

HepCat wrote: - Better sequencer zoom (@ user "AttentuationHz" ... please understand that l'm referring to vertical zoom and less clutter with the zoom icons, regardless of keyboard shortcuts, and when i said l want simulated power outtages and fluff in the grating, l was joking, and i even explained i was joking)
I liked the old sequencer zoom and can't stand the new version. I never want to do vertical zoom but I need to do horizontal all the time, and now it's a huge pain in the ass when using a trackpad.
Cosmopolis, out now: : https://timeslaves.bandcamp.com/album/cosmopolis! Check out the first single, "City Lights:

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Raveshaper
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20 Sep 2016

Have to disagree here.

Unchained Melody and We Will Rock You both involve trained musicians who are skilled both in voice and in instrument. Freddie Mercury had a phenomenal vocal range and excellent pitch, specifically.

If you put in the notes for either of those songs with perfect timing and use subtractor to play that arrangement, I don't care if it's Beethoven, Bach, Musorgsky. It will lack all of the nuance and character, all of the expressive potential in that material.

The arrangement is not at issue. The quality of instruments is at issue. The skill is required, yes. But quality materials with which to work are the next step. Unfortunately, Reason is not a good replacement for years of training and real instruments.
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kitekrazy
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20 Sep 2016

The_G wrote:
kitekrazy wrote:
The_G wrote:I love Reason--no other DAW (and I've used 3 others extensively) unlocks my creativity like Reason.

The only thing holding it back from being my one and only DAW is lack of support for VSTs/AUs.
REs are nice, and there are a few that are wonderful and not available elsewhere (e.g. Jiggery Pokery Steerpike Delay). But as many other people have said, the big dogs are not releasing their plugins in RE format. *AND* even if they did, you'd have to buy it twice to use with Reason and another DAW.

So I connect Reason to Logic via Rewire and do it that way. Not a huge deal, but like I said, if I could just load the VSTs/AUs into the rack, or into a specially designed "rack box" that has all the "wiring" on the back, then I might not use Logic at all.
One may effect the other. Maybe the beauty of Reason is the limited choices.
If that were the case, then REs would pose the same problem as VSTs. So no--that explanation doesn't hold water for me.

There are two reasons that Reason doesn't support VSTs: Props doesn't want to introduce instability (and does want to ensure that every plugin keeps the overall system stable) and Props wants to make money via their centralized marketplace, a la the Apple App Store.

But if they changed their minds on that, I (and I wager a lot of other people) would be very happy. I do not see it happening any time soon though. And it's not a deal breaker for me--i still love Reason.
That would depend if you want to fork over a lot of money on REs. People made music before Reason 6. There RE market is quite limited to what is available on VST.

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The_G
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20 Sep 2016

kitekrazy wrote:That would depend if you want to fork over a lot of money on REs.
I buy REs if they are high quality, rationally priced and scratch an itch.
kitekrazy wrote:People made music before Reason 6.
Indeed they did. I've used Reason since version 2.0.
kitekrazy wrote:There RE market is quite limited to what is available on VST.
Yup. That's why a lot of people want VST support. I figure the most practical way for that to happen is to make a specialized rack utility into which you can load VSTs.
Cosmopolis, out now: : https://timeslaves.bandcamp.com/album/cosmopolis! Check out the first single, "City Lights:

EdGrip
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21 Sep 2016

My comment about national and international releases was just my sarcy way of taking the piss out of the daft hyperbolic use of "international" in a previous post. *We* all know you can record any music in Reason, though hopefully it's not controversial to say it's better suited to some musical styles and ways of working than others. It's probably helpful to have more than one DAW just to bring out different ways of approaching creativity, apart from anything else.

How sad it must be to think about music primarily as notation and structure. Maybe we can run a Kickstarter to get this poor fellow absolutely twisted and covered in UV facepaint in a field somewhere?

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fceramic
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21 Sep 2016

Just making a good tune is not really all there is to music. Especially if you have an idea for a good song you want it to really come across in the production. Your examples involves incredibly talented musicians, engineers and producers with equipment worth more than a house. Try making a general midi version of those tracks and see if it equals the original.
The other reason why this argument is nonsense is most modern genres of music are a result of technological advancement/new gear. New tools inspire new ideas just look at the 808, the Fairlight or even Serum as a current example of an instrument that has had a massive effect on the type of sounds we're hearing all over the place.

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stratatonic
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21 Sep 2016

fceramic wrote:Just making a good tune is not really all there is to music. Especially if you have an idea for a good song you want it to really come across in the production. Your examples involves incredibly talented musicians, engineers and producers with equipment worth more than a house. Try making a general midi version of those tracks and see if it equals the original....

...most modern genres of music are a result of technological advancement/new gear.
The General MIDI version of the "good tune" will translate WAY better than sound effect driven beats that are a result of technological advancement ...

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stratatonic
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21 Sep 2016

The_G wrote:There are two reasons that Reason doesn't support VSTs: Props doesn't want to introduce instability (and does want to ensure that every plugin keeps the overall system stable) and Props wants to make money via their centralized marketplace, a la the Apple App Store.
It's only one reason. The centralized market place - and I can't blame Propellerhead for trying to make it relevant.

Your other reason about instability, I don't agree with that at all. Propellerhead may talk stability, but we've all probably had a plug or two that crashed or crashed the host. You just don't use them until they get updated. Or never. No big deal. There's a ton of plugs out there.

avasopht
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21 Sep 2016

stratatonic wrote:
fceramic wrote:Just making a good tune is not really all there is to music. Especially if you have an idea for a good song you want it to really come across in the production. Your examples involves incredibly talented musicians, engineers and producers with equipment worth more than a house. Try making a general midi version of those tracks and see if it equals the original....

...most modern genres of music are a result of technological advancement/new gear.
The General MIDI version of the "good tune" will translate WAY better than sound effect driven beats that are a result of technological advancement ...
Effect driven beats are central to many genres, like it or not, so no, people creating effect driven music shouldn't abandon it because it doesn't translate to midi any more than a drum beat should try to be as melodically complex as one of Bach's thumb twisting arpeggios.

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Noplan
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22 Sep 2016

Seckin wrote:You don't need any of those "superb" technical capabilities that some DAWs offer while others don't in order to make great sounding music.

Because, say, once you've written "Unchained Melody" you can't really go wrong with what device to route where, neither can you screw it just because you had Subtractor and not Massive. It will become a timeless hit no matter what.
In my opinion the rhythmic elements (backings) are more important and more difficult than the melody. Nevertheless they have to chime together.

If you play a rhythmic instrument well you can record it in any DAW, but if you want to programm a catchy rhythm then you have to choose a DAW that helps you to create it step by step. There are plenty of possibilities and every DAW has its' own tools and workflow.

The third important thing is the sound/sound design and depends on what music style you are in but it can be done in any DAW.

But the most important thing is your creativity that can be boosted or damaged by a DAW.

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Sprockhead
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22 Sep 2016

Regarding all the DAWs we have around us - I listened a bit to all the conversations that usually pops up here ("Reason needs This to be relevant") and I thought, I wonder how the forums look for all the other DAWs and I visit a few of them and it's quite the same story over there.
"Come on -DAW company- it's 2016!!" or "Where's this feature or that one". It's quite funny in a way. And that's not to say that the suggestions people come with aren't valid a lot of the time :D

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Creativemind
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22 Sep 2016

moneykube wrote:my fisher price daw is the bomb.... got a mic... keys.... but no midi... the colors are to die for
:mrgreen:
That thread deserves more likes.
:reason:

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