Fighting with Reason

[selig]

I always felt Logic 8 & 9 sounded "smaller". I'd have the same deal when exporting stems from Logic and importing into say Cubase years ago. Cubase just sounded cleaner and with more sonic info somehow.
People have mentioned an Ableton Sound... but maybe that's just if folks are relying on the stock Ableton samples and plugins?
The only difficulty in doing these tests are, they are the result, not the process. As in it's a mixed file, it's not demonstrating the actual process of adjusting and working in an open session.
The theory that dry stems all sound the same no matter which DAW you import them into is all well and good in that it's science. But it's unhelpful in that it's not a practical example of how so many of us work. As you'd said there are so many variables and various defaults.
Logic's default pan law (compensated) business for example.
I dunno... at the end of the day, i just came on here to vent a frustration. I was speaking emotionally about my process.
Making music is not easy, we struggle against our own limitations as much as any thing else.
I've been making music professionally since 1991 when I owned a Tascam 688, and would write "demos" that would then get recorded onto 24 tracks.
But I'm still seeking to improve - as we all do - and master the tools that have opened up incredible creative options. If I'd had Reason 25 years ago... my goodness.
Selig I appreciate your patient persistence and detailed explanations brother. And other contributors. It's all a good read, lots of good info.
Carry on!

All we have done is prove something based on your first comment - that things sounded better BEFORE you did ANYTHING, just by importing. We have proved that is simply NOT the case.

From there, I totally understand every tool leads you down a slightly different path. But also, and this applies to pan laws and other differences, you put a talented engineer in front of any system and they will make it work. If it's not "bright" enough you'll make the changes without even thinking about it - you have a sound in mind and you just go for it. Not everyone has the natural talent the top engineers have - I KNOW I don't have the same natural talent my more successful engineer friends have, but it's not my first job - my first job is composing music. The reason I started engineering was the same reason guys like Todd Rungren did - because they simply didn't want to wait for the engineer to show up to start putting their ideas down. And it was quicker to do it yourself. Still to this day, if the project is super important I'll get one of my more talented friends to mix, partly cause they're quicker than me and partly so I can focus on what's important - the music.

I hope something here was helpful to you in some way, if not today then down the line. It's a progression, this music stuff, and we're constantly striving to make better music every day. The day you stop caring is the day you stop making music IMO.

[selig]

man, 16 pages of this! and it's funny, the people that accuse Reason of being flawed are always the ones who are more hostile, or who dismiss legitimate suggestions. then they say they're "done here", over and over.

and it's sad because I actually do hear a difference in the original files he posted, and I wanna know what was different! I know one was limited +6 dB, but I hear more than that. the ProTools one sounds brighter, even though that's the one that's an mp3? were there Reason devices applied that were taking away some high end? I'm confused and I just skimmed through all these pages to not really find much of anything.

That Pro Tools file was limited by 6 dB, which is a fair amount! And given that louder sounds better, that 6 dB extra gain on top of the compressed dynamics gave it a huge advantage IMO. Hence, PT sounds "fatter" - damn right it's fatter, it better be after that much processing.

Later in the thread the processing was eliminated and it was shown that there was no difference - even when summing 64 tracks (also no difference doing the same thing in Logic).

There are older version of PT that are not floating point like Logic and Reason, and this may be where the differences were noted. But now that all versions of PT are floating point, there appears to be no difference, at least no difference that anyone can point out.

hmm, I notice the Pro Tools one not only sounds "fatter" but also brighter. like, more high end. which is weird because I would expect the opposite from an mp3. maybe the mastering chain with the limiting also had some kind of multiband processing that explains what i'm hearing. or maybe i'm not level-matching well enough, or my ears are playing tricks! good to know that the DAW difference was eliminated though.

It's LOUDER - that will always skew your perception. Remove that variable and compare and see if you feel the same way.

And mp3 files, if the rate is high enough, can sound quite good, so just because it's an mp3 doesn't necessarily mean it can't be "bright".

i said i was level-matching! just not with any tools at the moment. even when I turn the Pro Tools version to be quieter to my own ears, I still hear a bit more sparkle.

and I'm familiar with how good mp3 encoding has gotten. regardless, between an aiff and an mp3, if i was told that one had less high-end, i'd suspect the mp3! just funny is all.

OK, but can you say where that sparkle came from? Because once we eliminated the compression, the files no longer sounded different and nulled. So it would seem the sparkle you heard either came from the mp3 process or the limiting or both - who knows. But the one thing we DO know is it didn't come from the DAW itself.

Also, level matching is impossible with a compressed vs non compressed file - some parts will be louder, some quieter since the dynamics are altered on one and not on the other.

[Riverman]

To be clear, the FIRST Reason file had midi triggered instruments, and a virtual amp - the virtual amp cancelled out the print of the guitar part though, interestingly. But the synths didn't. The snare (being triggered by midi) didn't, but the kick drum did null out.
There are discrepancies between the midi playback and the printed stem, that's inarguable based on the null not nulling.

[selig]

Yeah it's with vocals that it's the most problematic. Just won't sit right. Very hard to describe. WIll be too loud one second, adjust and it's too soft.

This is exactly why you would use things like a compressor and/or a de-esser.

That's with compressors on buddy... That's with constant adjustments to the compressor ratio/attack, the track's volume, eq adjustments, reverb adjustments... it's just a very different experience. Hence the term "fighting with Reason". It's like constantly struggling with all the little adjustments.

OK, to be fair you need to stop saying "fighting with REASON" because we've proven it's not Reason. If you're fighting with compressors, say it - it's the COMPRESSORS, not Reason!

If you're not using the same compressors in both apps you're comparing apples to oranges. Not trying to be rude (and sincerely hope I'm not coming across that way), but I'm getting hoarse repeating myself today…

[selig]

To be clear, the FIRST Reason file had midi triggered instruments, and a virtual amp - the virtual amp cancelled out the print of the guitar part though, interestingly. But the synths didn't. The snare (being triggered by midi) didn't, but the kick drum did null out.
There are discrepancies between the midi playback and the printed stem, that's inarguable based on the null not nulling.

If the timing of the MIDI tracks is even one sample off, it WILL NOT NULL. Who knows what all was going on there, as there were SO many variables that could not be accounted for. Once those variables were removed the files sounded exactly the same because they were exactly the same. So of course there were differences - but WHAT differences?

Remember (again), just because a file won't null doesn't mean you can necessarily draw any particular conclusion about WHY it didn't null or where exactly the differences were. It should simply be timing differences, or very slight level differences - both of which would be very difficult to "hear" (but would not null).

[chimp_spanner]

To be clear, the FIRST Reason file had midi triggered instruments, and a virtual amp - the virtual amp cancelled out the print of the guitar part though, interestingly. But the synths didn't. The snare (being triggered by midi) didn't, but the kick drum did null out.
There are discrepancies between the midi playback and the printed stem, that's inarguable based on the null not nulling.

Depends entirely on the synth, and how you have it set up. If you have Antidote, try this;

Set the phase to 0 degrees
Record a note
Bounce in place
Unmute MIDI
Phase invert the bounced file
Presto; the sound disappears

There's no real mystery. It just depends on the synth. If the oscillators are free running or have their phase set to random, you will get some discrepancy between the MIDI and the printed version.

[selig]

To be clear, the FIRST Reason file had midi triggered instruments, and a virtual amp - the virtual amp cancelled out the print of the guitar part though, interestingly. But the synths didn't. The snare (being triggered by midi) didn't, but the kick drum did null out.
There are discrepancies between the midi playback and the printed stem, that's inarguable based on the null not nulling.

Depends entirely on the synth, and how you have it set up. If you have Antidote, try this;

Set the phase to 0 degrees
Record a note
Bounce in place
Unmute MIDI
Phase invert the bounced file
Presto; the sound disappears

There's no real mystery. It just depends on the synth. If the oscillators are free running or have their phase set to random, you will get some discrepancy between the MIDI and the printed version.

And for comparison try it without osc sync or with a patch using a free LFO - it's kinda fun to hear what remains, and there are probably creative uses for this effect for those willing to try a little hit and miss fun!

[Riverman]

Yeah it's with vocals that it's the most problematic. Just won't sit right. Very hard to describe. WIll be too loud one second, adjust and it's too soft.

This is exactly why you would use things like a compressor and/or a de-esser.

That's with compressors on buddy... That's with constant adjustments to the compressor ratio/attack, the track's volume, eq adjustments, reverb adjustments... it's just a very different experience. Hence the term "fighting with Reason". It's like constantly struggling with all the little adjustments.

OK, to be fair you need to stop saying "fighting with REASON" because we've proven it's not Reason. If you're fighting with compressors, say it - it's the COMPRESSORS, not Reason!

If you're not using the same compressors in both apps you're comparing apples to oranges. Not trying to be rude (and sincerely hope I'm not coming across that way), but I'm getting hoarse repeating myself today…

Hey man, yes of course I know that. I'm talking about stems bounced WITH THE COMPRESSORS ON. The printed, compressed files, then imported, sounding different. So the session will have compressors triggering live, but the printed file will have the compression embedded into the track. So then what I'm listening to in PT will have no compressors on it at all.

What I am aware of though, is that the mastering chain I use in PT I'm more adept at than in Reason (BUT THIS IS BESIDE THE POINT: Please don't tell me I need to bypass the mastering chain for the null test, I did that I did that I did that.)
The waves Multiband compressors and limiters for example... I haven't found a way to replicate those in Reason.
I wish there was a stock multiband compressor in Reason.

But as said, that's beside the point. I have consistently been describing the contrast between pulling up a dry, non compressed, non mastered no nothing session of printed stems (including reverb channel stems) brought up in PT as sounding different from the live, midi-triggered, live compressing session in Reason.

[Riverman]

Did anyone load up the Reason file I uploaded btw?

[lowpryo]

man, 16 pages of this! and it's funny, the people that accuse Reason of being flawed are always the ones who are more hostile, or who dismiss legitimate suggestions. then they say they're "done here", over and over.

and it's sad because I actually do hear a difference in the original files he posted, and I wanna know what was different! I know one was limited +6 dB, but I hear more than that. the ProTools one sounds brighter, even though that's the one that's an mp3? were there Reason devices applied that were taking away some high end? I'm confused and I just skimmed through all these pages to not really find much of anything.

That Pro Tools file was limited by 6 dB, which is a fair amount! And given that louder sounds better, that 6 dB extra gain on top of the compressed dynamics gave it a huge advantage IMO. Hence, PT sounds "fatter" - damn right it's fatter, it better be after that much processing.

Later in the thread the processing was eliminated and it was shown that there was no difference - even when summing 64 tracks (also no difference doing the same thing in Logic).

There are older version of PT that are not floating point like Logic and Reason, and this may be where the differences were noted. But now that all versions of PT are floating point, there appears to be no difference, at least no difference that anyone can point out.

hmm, I notice the Pro Tools one not only sounds "fatter" but also brighter. like, more high end. which is weird because I would expect the opposite from an mp3. maybe the mastering chain with the limiting also had some kind of multiband processing that explains what i'm hearing. or maybe i'm not level-matching well enough, or my ears are playing tricks! good to know that the DAW difference was eliminated though.

It's LOUDER - that will always skew your perception. Remove that variable and compare and see if you feel the same way.

And mp3 files, if the rate is high enough, can sound quite good, so just because it's an mp3 doesn't necessarily mean it can't be "bright".

i said i was level-matching! just not with any tools at the moment. even when I turn the Pro Tools version to be quieter to my own ears, I still hear a bit more sparkle.

and I'm familiar with how good mp3 encoding has gotten. regardless, between an aiff and an mp3, if i was told that one had less high-end, i'd suspect the mp3! just funny is all.

OK, but can you say where that sparkle came from? Because once we eliminated the compression, the files no longer sounded different and nulled. So it would seem the sparkle you heard either came from the mp3 process or the limiting or both - who knows. But the one thing we DO know is it didn't come from the DAW itself.

Also, level matching is impossible with a compressed vs non compressed file - some parts will be louder, some quieter since the dynamics are altered on one and not on the other.

yep, I just figured out where the sparkle came from. Riverman just said his ProTools mastering chain included a Waves multiband compressor as well as the limiter. a spectral tool like that might do it huh

[chimp_spanner]

Which page is it on? This has turned into a bit of a saga haha. Happy to look at it if you tell me what I'm to be checking for!

[lowpryo]

Yeah it's with vocals that it's the most problematic. Just won't sit right. Very hard to describe. WIll be too loud one second, adjust and it's too soft.

This is exactly why you would use things like a compressor and/or a de-esser.

That's with compressors on buddy... That's with constant adjustments to the compressor ratio/attack, the track's volume, eq adjustments, reverb adjustments... it's just a very different experience. Hence the term "fighting with Reason". It's like constantly struggling with all the little adjustments.

OK, to be fair you need to stop saying "fighting with REASON" because we've proven it's not Reason. If you're fighting with compressors, say it - it's the COMPRESSORS, not Reason!

If you're not using the same compressors in both apps you're comparing apples to oranges. Not trying to be rude (and sincerely hope I'm not coming across that way), but I'm getting hoarse repeating myself today…

Hey man, yes of course I know that. I'm talking about stems bounced WITH THE COMPRESSORS ON. The printed, compressed files, then imported, sounding different. So the session will have compressors triggering live, but the printed file will have the compression embedded into the track. So then what I'm listening to in PT will have no compressors on it at all.

What I am aware of though, is that the mastering chain I use in PT I'm more adept at than in Reason (BUT THIS IS BESIDE THE POINT: Please don't tell me I need to bypass the mastering chain for the null test, I did that I did that I did that.)
The waves Multiband compressors and limiters for example... I haven't found a way to replicate those in Reason.
I wish there was a stock multiband compressor in Reason.

But as said, that's beside the point. I have consistently been describing the contrast between pulling up a dry, non compressed, non mastered no nothing session of printed stems (including reverb channel stems) brought up in PT as sounding different from the live, midi-triggered, live compressing session in Reason.

are you talking about with your Pro Tools mastering chain on, or off?

because you just said you don't want to turn it off. but when you bring unprocessed stems into Pro Tools with a mastering chain on, of course they are going to sound different. the mastering chain is doing that. maybe I'm misreading your post.

[WongoTheSane]

Yeah it's with vocals that it's the most problematic. Just won't sit right. Very hard to describe. WIll be too loud one second, adjust and it's too soft.

This is exactly why you would use things like a compressor and/or a de-esser.

That's with compressors on buddy... That's with constant adjustments to the compressor ratio/attack, the track's volume, eq adjustments, reverb adjustments... it's just a very different experience. Hence the term "fighting with Reason". It's like constantly struggling with all the little adjustments.

What you describe is what happens when using a compressor or a limiter on a vocal. IMHO, those are not well suited for vocals (not as first effects in a chain at least): a leveler is what you're looking for. Where compressors compress (lower) the high end of the signal (which does limit peaks but doesn't change the dynamic range much), levelers raise the low end, thus eliminating the sudden jumps in volume.

I'm wondering whether the compressor you use on vocals in PT acts as a leveler? I don't know PT (and so don't know its plugins either), but at this point it would certainly help if you could tell us which one you're using (so someone can suggest an equivalent setup in Reason).
(EDIT: I was still writing this message when you posted the answer above: Waves it is).

Also, Selig is the creator of the only leveler in Reason (aptly named "Selig Leveler"), and being a mod here, he is the only one who cannot tell you about it publicly (for fear of being accused of pushing his products, although I suspect the potential accusers have left this thread three pages ago, but I digress). So I would suggest (in my own name) to give it a test run if you haven't already. If that's the first time you're using a leveler, I swear you'll be blown away by the clarity and the evenness of the resulting vocals: https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/selig-leveler/

This certainly won't solve all the mixing problems you're having in Reason, but it'll even out the levels of your vocal tracks at the very least.

(and black friday is in one week)

[Riverman]

Yeah it's with vocals that it's the most problematic. Just won't sit right. Very hard to describe. WIll be too loud one second, adjust and it's too soft.

This is exactly why you would use things like a compressor and/or a de-esser.

That's with compressors on buddy... That's with constant adjustments to the compressor ratio/attack, the track's volume, eq adjustments, reverb adjustments... it's just a very different experience. Hence the term "fighting with Reason". It's like constantly struggling with all the little adjustments.

OK, to be fair you need to stop saying "fighting with REASON" because we've proven it's not Reason. If you're fighting with compressors, say it - it's the COMPRESSORS, not Reason!

If you're not using the same compressors in both apps you're comparing apples to oranges. Not trying to be rude (and sincerely hope I'm not coming across that way), but I'm getting hoarse repeating myself today…

Hey man, yes of course I know that. I'm talking about stems bounced WITH THE COMPRESSORS ON. The printed, compressed files, then imported, sounding different. So the session will have compressors triggering live, but the printed file will have the compression embedded into the track. So then what I'm listening to in PT will have no compressors on it at all.

What I am aware of though, is that the mastering chain I use in PT I'm more adept at than in Reason (BUT THIS IS BESIDE THE POINT: Please don't tell me I need to bypass the mastering chain for the null test, I did that I did that I did that.)
The waves Multiband compressors and limiters for example... I haven't found a way to replicate those in Reason.
I wish there was a stock multiband compressor in Reason.

But as said, that's beside the point. I have consistently been describing the contrast between pulling up a dry, non compressed, non mastered no nothing session of printed stems (including reverb channel stems) brought up in PT as sounding different from the live, midi-triggered, live compressing session in Reason.

are you talking about with your Pro Tools mastering chain on, or off?

because you just said you don't want to turn it off. but when you bring unprocessed stems into Pro Tools with a mastering chain on, of course they are going to sound different. the mastering chain is doing that. maybe I'm misreading your post.

You're misreading.
I was talking about when I take a Reasom mix, bounce out stems from WITH PROCESSING ON THEM, and then import the stems into Pro Tools and listen WITH NO PROCESSING. No master chain, no limiting etc.

It does then go up another level again if I add master processing or start tweaking the mix again. But the last null test files I uploaded had nothing on the master fader. I did 't even add a master fader. I did nothing other than take a blank session, import files and hit export.

[Riverman]

Yeah it's with vocals that it's the most problematic. Just won't sit right. Very hard to describe. WIll be too loud one second, adjust and it's too soft.

This is exactly why you would use things like a compressor and/or a de-esser.

That's with compressors on buddy... That's with constant adjustments to the compressor ratio/attack, the track's volume, eq adjustments, reverb adjustments... it's just a very different experience. Hence the term "fighting with Reason". It's like constantly struggling with all the little adjustments.

What you describe is what happens when using a compressor or a limiter on a vocal. IMHO, those are not well suited for vocals (not as first effects in a chain at least): a leveler is what you're looking for. Where compressors compress (lower) the high end of the signal (which does limit peaks but doesn't change the dynamic range much), levelers raise the low end, thus eliminating the sudden jumps in volume.

I'm wondering whether the compressor you use on vocals in PT acts as a leveler? I don't know PT (and so don't know its plugins either), but at this point it would certainly help if you could tell us which one you're using (so someone can suggest an equivalent setup in Reason).

Also, Selig is the creator of the only leveler in Reason (aptly named "Selig Leveler"), and being a mod here, he is the only one who cannot tell you about it publicly (for fear of being accused of pushing his products, although I suspect the potential accusers have left this thread three pages ago, but I digress). So I would suggest (in my own name) to give it a test run if you haven't already. If that's the first time you're using a leveler, I swear you'll be blown away by the clarity and the evenness of the resulting vocals: https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/selig-leveler/

This certainly won't solve all the mixing problems you're having in Reason, but it'll even out the levels of your vocal tracks at the very least.

(and black friday is in one week)

A go-to I use in PT is the humble Rennaisance compressor. Not a fancy vintage one, just the pretty stock and standard R comp. But it works great on vocals.

I have gotten some great vocal mixes out of Reason, but as I've said it's a struggle to get there, unlike just popping the Rcomp and an eq on in others.

I've been finding the Reason master comp and master eq on a vocal track sounds better than using the SSL comp and eq

I'd like to try the currently free Roland Cakewalk compressor. I grabbed the AAX of it, still waiting for a Reason code for it.

[selig]

Yeah it's with vocals that it's the most problematic. Just won't sit right. Very hard to describe. WIll be too loud one second, adjust and it's too soft.

This is exactly why you would use things like a compressor and/or a de-esser.

That's with compressors on buddy... That's with constant adjustments to the compressor ratio/attack, the track's volume, eq adjustments, reverb adjustments... it's just a very different experience. Hence the term "fighting with Reason". It's like constantly struggling with all the little adjustments.

OK, to be fair you need to stop saying "fighting with REASON" because we've proven it's not Reason. If you're fighting with compressors, say it - it's the COMPRESSORS, not Reason!

If you're not using the same compressors in both apps you're comparing apples to oranges. Not trying to be rude (and sincerely hope I'm not coming across that way), but I'm getting hoarse repeating myself today…

Hey man, yes of course I know that. I'm talking about stems bounced WITH THE COMPRESSORS ON. The printed, compressed files, then imported, sounding different. So the session will have compressors triggering live, but the printed file will have the compression embedded into the track. So then what I'm listening to in PT will have no compressors on it at all.

What I am aware of though, is that the mastering chain I use in PT I'm more adept at than in Reason (BUT THIS IS BESIDE THE POINT: Please don't tell me I need to bypass the mastering chain for the null test, I did that I did that I did that.)
The waves Multiband compressors and limiters for example... I haven't found a way to replicate those in Reason.
I wish there was a stock multiband compressor in Reason.

But as said, that's beside the point. I have consistently been describing the contrast between pulling up a dry, non compressed, non mastered no nothing session of printed stems (including reverb channel stems) brought up in PT as sounding different from the live, midi-triggered, live compressing session in Reason.

Ok, I get that which is why we also imported those same files into Reason.

There are two things going on - the idea the vocals are difficult to set in Reason but easy in other DAWs, which I suggest is a compressor issue not a Reason issue (unless you tell me you're using the same compressors, such as the RE-2a in both).

The other thing is the perceived difference between live playing files and exported files, which to date I believe you may be the first making this suggestion. Which is NOT to say you're wrong, but here the thing. It's VERY difficult to compare subtle differences if you let too much time go by between listens.

Engineers smarter then I taught me to compare this way, with one file ahead of the other by let's say two bars. You listen to two bars of the file that's ahead, then switch to the other file and you hear what you JUST HEARD, and go back and forth from there - makes differences easier to hear. So you're not only listening to the same exact part of the song, but there is virtually NO delay between the comparison, also making any differences easier to hear.

SO if you're letting many seconds, if not MINUTES, go by between comparisons, then all best are off IMO. Since a null test won't likely work with "live" files for the reasons previously stated, I'd suggest this other test to compare. Because you HAVE to admit (we ALL do) that you CAN be fooled. Once you admit that, you then need to find ways to prevent being fooled. And this is one of them!

Here's how I'd make the comparison in Reason: export an entire mix, then import that mix file back into the same song file as it was exported from (and route it around any mastering if need be) and mute it, then you can do the one button trick by soloing it to A/B it to the live track. You can even slide if forward two (or four) bars so you can solo every two bars to REALLY compare the exact same part of the song each time you switch.

I'll go ahead and speculate that any changes are going to be VERY difficult to hear, because there's no historical evidence to point to here, meaning no others are commonly making a similar claim such as is the case with the "summing" issue.

You'll ether discover that there's no change, OR you'll know exactly WHAT the change is. Either way, knowledge is power.

[selig]

Yeah it's with vocals that it's the most problematic. Just won't sit right. Very hard to describe. WIll be too loud one second, adjust and it's too soft.

This is exactly why you would use things like a compressor and/or a de-esser.

That's with compressors on buddy... That's with constant adjustments to the compressor ratio/attack, the track's volume, eq adjustments, reverb adjustments... it's just a very different experience. Hence the term "fighting with Reason". It's like constantly struggling with all the little adjustments.

What you describe is what happens when using a compressor or a limiter on a vocal. IMHO, those are not well suited for vocals (not as first effects in a chain at least): a leveler is what you're looking for. Where compressors compress (lower) the high end of the signal (which does limit peaks but doesn't change the dynamic range much), levelers raise the low end, thus eliminating the sudden jumps in volume.

I'm wondering whether the compressor you use on vocals in PT acts as a leveler? I don't know PT (and so don't know its plugins either), but at this point it would certainly help if you could tell us which one you're using (so someone can suggest an equivalent setup in Reason).

Also, Selig is the creator of the only leveler in Reason (aptly named "Selig Leveler"), and being a mod here, he is the only one who cannot tell you about it publicly (for fear of being accused of pushing his products, although I suspect the potential accusers have left this thread three pages ago, but I digress). So I would suggest (in my own name) to give it a test run if you haven't already. If that's the first time you're using a leveler, I swear you'll be blown away by the clarity and the evenness of the resulting vocals: https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/selig-leveler/

This certainly won't solve all the mixing problems you're having in Reason, but it'll even out the levels of your vocal tracks at the very least.

(and black friday is in one week)

A go-to I use in PT is the humble Rennaisance compressor. Not a fancy vintage one, just the pretty stock and standard R comp. But it works great on vocals.

I have gotten some great vocal mixes out of Reason, but as I've said it's a struggle to get there, unlike just popping the Rcomp and an eq on in others.

I've been finding the Reason master comp and master eq on a vocal track sounds better than using the SSL comp and eq

I'd like to try the currently free Roland Cakewalk compressor. I grabbed the AAX of it, still waiting for a Reason code for it.

Easiest solution - export the vocal to PT and set the R-Comp the way you like it. Then re-import back to Reason and see how that works for you. I do the opposite when working in PT, exporting to Reason do use my De-Esser and Leveler, then re-importing back to PT for the mix.

[8cros]

Yeah it's with vocals that it's the most problematic. Just won't sit right. Very hard to describe. WIll be too loud one second, adjust and it's too soft.

This is exactly why you would use things like a compressor and/or a de-esser.

That's with compressors on buddy... That's with constant adjustments to the compressor ratio/attack, the track's volume, eq adjustments, reverb adjustments... it's just a very different experience. Hence the term "fighting with Reason". It's like constantly struggling with all the little adjustments.

What you describe is what happens when using a compressor or a limiter on a vocal. IMHO, those are not well suited for vocals (not as first effects in a chain at least): a leveler is what you're looking for. Where compressors compress (lower) the high end of the signal (which does limit peaks but doesn't change the dynamic range much), levelers raise the low end, thus eliminating the sudden jumps in volume.

I'm wondering whether the compressor you use on vocals in PT acts as a leveler? I don't know PT (and so don't know its plugins either), but at this point it would certainly help if you could tell us which one you're using (so someone can suggest an equivalent setup in Reason).

Also, Selig is the creator of the only leveler in Reason (aptly named "Selig Leveler"), and being a mod here, he is the only one who cannot tell you about it publicly (for fear of being accused of pushing his products, although I suspect the potential accusers have left this thread three pages ago, but I digress). So I would suggest (in my own name) to give it a test run if you haven't already. If that's the first time you're using a leveler, I swear you'll be blown away by the clarity and the evenness of the resulting vocals: https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/selig-leveler/

This certainly won't solve all the mixing problems you're having in Reason, but it'll even out the levels of your vocal tracks at the very least.

(and black friday is in one week)

A go-to I use in PT is the humble Rennaisance compressor. Not a fancy vintage one, just the pretty stock and standard R comp. But it works great on vocals.

I have gotten some great vocal mixes out of Reason, but as I've said it's a struggle to get there, unlike just popping the Rcomp and an eq on in others.

I've been finding the Reason master comp and master eq on a vocal track sounds better than using the SSL comp and eq

I'd like to try the currently free Roland Cakewalk compressor. I grabbed the AAX of it, still waiting for a Reason code for it.

Easiest solution - export the vocal to PT and set the R-Comp the way you like it. Then re-import back to Reason and see how that works for you. I do the opposite when working in PT, exporting to Reason do use my De-Esser and Leveler, then re-importing back to PT for the mix.

Why are you doing it? After all, there is no difference. (If it can not be secret). ...back to PT for the mix.

[chimp_spanner]

Well I'm not sure what's going on man! I think we established reasonably well that Reason doesn't sum channels any differently, so Cubase, PT, Logic, etc. aren't working any magic in the way they play the tracks back (certainly not Cubase anyway, can't test the others).

And there really is no difference between running effects live vs printing them. Again, you can test this yourself; load up a drum loop, put a compressor on it, bounce the drum loop, unmute the source track and invert the phase. The sound of the drum loop being processed by the compressor in realtime will perfectly cancel out the sound of the drum loop with the compressor printed onto it.

I'm not really sure what else to say beyond that. I've done a little bit of reading, just out of curiosity, and the idea that DAWs have "sounds" has been pretty much debunked, as has the idea that bounced audio sounds any different (or worse) than streamed, although for the longest time many experienced, professional engineers would say in interviews that they never bounce, because it just sounds worse. Even though there's no real logic behind why it would do. It's still digital, whether it's in memory or on your hard disk. There's no sonic characteristic associated with printing to file/disk.

But point is, you're not alone in thinking it. There are psychological and illusory elements at work. Even the look of software can influence how you feel about the sound of it. Imagine if something like Legend had a Windows NT style interface. Would it still feel like it had that 'analogue mojo'? Probably not! Here, check this out and go to 38 seconds:

Ears can be deceived, by your other senses and by your own mind. Human brains are just ripe for hacking haha.

[Logismos]

Please take time to look+listen closely at these old videos.
No reason,but points are made.
Then re-read posts- I tried to help.ty.

pt2 is the blind test.

Pt3 is the results.

That is all for now folks.

[selig]

Great videos, which I would assume you are posting as supporting the arguments made here that there is no difference between DAWS.

So I took your advice and re-read posts and came across this:
Enochlight:
"There's lot of things Reason needs to get better at, but a dry project bounced down and summed in one sounds the exact same as any other DAW when levels are set the same and there's no inserts or any other effects in the chain."

To which you replied:
"Hmm again-you couldn't really be so wrong here-there certainly are differences between audio drivers signal>to>noise ratios I think you will find.?? no?

"I have to say,I think ""your not even showing any testing methodology,or science""...so please present some of your trained findings to end this debate now? no? yes?.."
Sigh.
There will be differences-the 2 programmes do not work identically-therein lay said 'problems',but also,the possible solutions! ! =)"


So Enochlight claimed there were no differences, and now we HAVE done the tests and found Enochlight was actually 100% right. I don't want to draw a mistaken conclusion or put words in your mouth, but as a more vocal detractor to this theory from early in this thread, it now seems you are accepting there is no difference between DAWs (based on you posting these videos which say the same?

[WongoTheSane]

Please take time to look+listen closely at these old videos.
No reason,but points are made.
Then re-read posts- I tried to help.ty.



pt2 is the blind test.

Pt3 is the results.


That is all for now folks.

Excellent videos. Don't they demonstrate exactly the opposite of what you are saying though? You're saying there are differences between DAWs and the videos are saying there isn't and it's all in your head (hilarious demonstration btw!)... Maybe you didn't watch until the end and didn't notice the Excel sheet name?

[EnochLight]

So Enochlight claimed there were no differences, and now we HAVE done the tests and found Enochlight was actually 100% right. I don't want to draw a mistaken conclusion or put words in your mouth, but as a more vocal detractor to this theory from early in this thread, it now seems you are accepting there is no difference between DAWs (based on you posting these videos which say the same?

Well, I have to say - after 17 pages of very colorful discussions - I appreciate all of the work you guys did doing your tests and posting links to your data, because I certainly couldn't be arsed to go through that again (as I stated before, many of us have been down this road too may times).

@Logismos - it does seem like you did a complete 180 on me, compared to your initial response (at least, that's what the evidence suggests that you posted above). I guess.. yay?

@Riverman - glad some new information was obtained. I wish you well and hope you enjoy doing your productions in whatever DAW that works best for you!

@Everyone else - keep on rock'n!

[Logismos]

Great videos, which I would assume you are posting as supporting the arguments made here that there is no difference between DAWS.

Um-no,I am not supporting any arguments-but clearly nobody is listening to what the guy says in the 1st video??
Goto 7.15 and loop that section. (I wouldn't call -60db nothing,would any of you?)
When he does show results,there is only a small amount of people asked,and even then,the differences in perceptions was different with 1 same file playing.<There is the psychosomatic human problem,not the actual data points plots.
Also as guy says "it's pointless to argue."

seem like you did a complete 180 on me, compared to your initial response (at least, that's what the evidence suggests that you posted above). I guess.. yay?

Wrong again,sorry.
Nothing has been proven here,other than differences.It's more than just perception.
If people want to attempt to troll me,then be warned,i'm fairly sharp and prone to biting those that tease.

Where are the 2 final reason/pt 'null test files' ? I will show any differences if there are any... link please.
If anyone wants a suitable response to any previous question,please ask again.
Carry on.

[Ottostrom]

Nothing has been proven here,other than differences.It's more than just perception.
If people want to attempt to troll me,then be warned,i'm fairly sharp and prone to biting those that tease.

Oh shit, you are right! NOTHING has been proven here! All these idiots with their stupid tests haha lolz
Guess we are the final winners after all, right Logismos? Wisdom prevails once again!