Doubt with reason 9 vs fl studio 12

[Kaosis]

Not a single sound in Daybreak is stock. All of it sounds imported. Is there verification that all of this is stock, or does he just master in Reason 6.5.

EDIT: I stand corrected, it just takes a CPU killing ton of devices to achieve his sound. That's all. Tee-hee. (Do you really want to have to build all that?)

It's work flow, some people tinker around with things until they get something they like. Reason embraces that, unless you want to sound like a preset, which to me are there for quick inspiration/filler bits, until you sculpt the sound you actually want for that piece.

[chimp_spanner]

Tried FL. Didn't like it. I really don't get on with clip/pattern based sequencers. Making a new pattern just for the most tiny fill or variation is just a drag for me (unless there's now a way to make edits directly on the timeline?).

I will say that the stock plugins are more immediately impressive. If you ask me, Reason needs a new FSB. I go to the Bitley WBF ReFill waaaay more than I go to the FSB. So Reason is capable of inspiring sounds. But as it stands I think you gotta work for them more. Which, don't get me wrong, I'm okay with. I love making my own sounds. And if you listen to all the FL tutorials out there, they all sound prettt similar. Definitely something to be said for finding your own way. But also some really outstanding presets wouldn't go amiss either. Personally I feel like it's mostly lacking in the drum department. There are very few kits that make me pull that face like I just smelled bad cheese, ya know? That "UH" face

Crazy because, like I said, Reason is definitely capable of it.

[teddymcw]

Watching The Widdler on twitch really helped me stopped making excuses about not getting great sounds and putting some more intelligent work into your desired sounds. He's more dub based and doesn't do many actual tuts but his streams are at the very least inspirational if not informative and fun. https://www.twitch.tv/the_widdler

[Creativemind]

I think we will see some fantastic Rack Extensions coming in the shop in the next 12 months with the SDK updated with extra features and sample loading now. Think we'll see Re's every bit as good as the VST world. There may be even a rack extension that people who don't own Reason will be jealous of at some point. That's my take anyway.

[lowpryo]

Not a single sound in Daybreak is stock. All of it sounds imported. Is there verification that all of this is stock, or does he just master in Reason 6.5.

EDIT: I stand corrected, it just takes a CPU killing ton of devices to achieve his sound. That's all. Tee-hee. (Do you really want to have to build all that?)

is there evidence that he could create comparable sounds in other DAWs with less work or devices? that would be the only fair comparison to make here!

[tronam]

Trance? Daniel Kandi, Mr. Uplifting Trance himself, produced almost all of his most well known tracks in Reason 3. There's just no substitute for having a good ear and a solid understanding of all your tools, no matter what they may be.

[Ottostrom]

Not a single sound in Daybreak is stock. All of it sounds imported. Is there verification that all of this is stock, or does he just master in Reason 6.5.

EDIT: I stand corrected, it just takes a CPU killing ton of devices to achieve his sound. That's all. Tee-hee. (Do you really want to have to build all that?)

*I stand corrected, it just takes actual hard work to get to a professional level of music making, not just a bunch of presets. That's all.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Spryx]

Modern Trance is much more about production techniques. Check out some of the tutorials on the anjunabeats forum and adapt those to Reason.

[nooomy]

Not a single sound in Daybreak is stock. All of it sounds imported. Is there verification that all of this is stock, or does he just master in Reason 6.5.

EDIT: I stand corrected, it just takes a CPU killing ton of devices to achieve his sound. That's all. Tee-hee. (Do you really want to have to build all that?)

Lol. You have no Idea what u Are talking about.

It could easily be just Thor and subtractor. You obviously don't know how to tweak patches...

[Raveshaper]

I freely admit that there is a lot that I have yet to learn and that many people on this forum are more educated than I am when it comes to sound design and the applied science of working professionally with audio. While I am highly allergic to presets, there have been cases where "that sound" in "that song" was actually a preset (that everyone liked and no one cared about because catchy). If it works, I don't see the harm.

While I do find it irritating to have to layer more things in Reason because of how specific each device is, compared to redundancy in VST requiring fewer elements to do the same work, yes it is absolutely necessary to layer a lot of things and do a lot of work to find a satisfying result. However, if you're talking FL versus Reason there is a difference in being able to leverage more out of each unit in FL than in Reason. They are very different apps and Reason has a more intuitive feel, but there are times that I would trade the complexity of FL's learning curve for more immediacy, redundancy, and simplicity. More focus on technique and result rather than device selection, signal flow, and patching. But that's me. It gets tedious at times when clearly this is not the standard. Device priority and signal flow within an effect chain is important and is standard, but not the labor intensive process of patching as we know and understand it in Reason. Again, that's just me.

What I should have said about this sounding imported is simply that designing these kinds of sounds and getting this balanced of a spectrum in the final render has been shown by many professional grade Reason releases in the past to be seemingly unobtainable; at least in the sense that no one else has released work of this polish from Reason so far (to my knowledge). I can see why Electric Mantis is different, given that his device count is insanely high, but even while listening carefully for familiar drum samples and synth oscillators, nothing seemed recognizable -- even in timbre. He is obviously very good, but without seeing the sources of the various instruments I wouldn't necessarily be able to snap my fingers and say "Malstrom" or "Subtractor", etc.

So, in summary, sure. There's stuff I don't know yet. I'll get there.

[Ottostrom]

I freely admit that there is a lot that I have yet to learn and that many people on this forum are more educated than I am when it comes to sound design and the applied science of working professionally with audio. While I am highly allergic to presets, there have been cases where "that sound" in "that song" was actually a preset (that everyone liked and no one cared about because catchy). If it works, I don't see the harm.

While I do find it irritating to have to layer more things in Reason because of how specific each device is, compared to redundancy in VST requiring fewer elements to do the same work, yes it is absolutely necessary to layer a lot of things and do a lot of work to find a satisfying result. However, if you're talking FL versus Reason there is a difference in being able to leverage more out of each unit in FL than in Reason. They are very different apps and Reason has a more intuitive feel, but there are times that I would trade the complexity of FL's learning curve for more immediacy, redundancy, and simplicity. More focus on technique and result rather than device selection, signal flow, and patching. But that's me. It gets tedious at times when clearly this is not the standard. Device priority and signal flow within an effect chain is important and is standard, but not the labor intensive process of patching as we know and understand it in Reason. Again, that's just me.

What I should have said about this sounding imported is simply that designing these kinds of sounds and getting this balanced of a spectrum in the final render has been shown by many professional grade Reason releases in the past to be seemingly unobtainable; at least in the sense that no one else has released work of this polish from Reason so far (to my knowledge). I can see why Electric Mantis is different, given that his device count is insanely high, but even while listening carefully for familiar drum samples and synth oscillators, nothing seemed recognizable -- even in timbre. He is obviously very good, but without seeing the sources of the various instruments I wouldn't necessarily be able to snap my fingers and say "Malstrom" or "Subtractor", etc.

So, in summary, sure. There's stuff I don't know yet. I'll get there.

I get some of your points, but most of them just confuse me.
"labor intensive process of patching"? Are we using different versions of Reason? Cause I can just drag in my devices into the chain, much like you would do it in most DAWs. Also, what more exactly do you want a EQ or compressor to do? Its not like FL adds a bunch of features to these devices.
Electric Mantis is definitely not the first artist to get professional results in Reason as we also have Protostar, Kill the Noise, Stromae and many others.
And what kind of music do you normally listen to if you can always tell which synth they are using? I mean, you put a distortion unit after a synth and its instantly hard to recognize.

[Kaosis]

I freely admit that there is a lot that I have yet to learn and that many people on this forum are more educated than I am when it comes to sound design and the applied science of working professionally with audio. While I am highly allergic to presets, there have been cases where "that sound" in "that song" was actually a preset (that everyone liked and no one cared about because catchy). If it works, I don't see the harm.

While I do find it irritating to have to layer more things in Reason because of how specific each device is, compared to redundancy in VST requiring fewer elements to do the same work, yes it is absolutely necessary to layer a lot of things and do a lot of work to find a satisfying result. However, if you're talking FL versus Reason there is a difference in being able to leverage more out of each unit in FL than in Reason. They are very different apps and Reason has a more intuitive feel, but there are times that I would trade the complexity of FL's learning curve for more immediacy, redundancy, and simplicity. More focus on technique and result rather than device selection, signal flow, and patching. But that's me. It gets tedious at times when clearly this is not the standard. Device priority and signal flow within an effect chain is important and is standard, but not the labor intensive process of patching as we know and understand it in Reason. Again, that's just me.

What I should have said about this sounding imported is simply that designing these kinds of sounds and getting this balanced of a spectrum in the final render has been shown by many professional grade Reason releases in the past to be seemingly unobtainable; at least in the sense that no one else has released work of this polish from Reason so far (to my knowledge). I can see why Electric Mantis is different, given that his device count is insanely high, but even while listening carefully for familiar drum samples and synth oscillators, nothing seemed recognizable -- even in timbre. He is obviously very good, but without seeing the sources of the various instruments I wouldn't necessarily be able to snap my fingers and say "Malstrom" or "Subtractor", etc.

So, in summary, sure. There's stuff I don't know yet. I'll get there.

I wasn't saying that presets are a no go and that no one should use them, or that people using them are lesser than those that don't. But the stock presets in Reason do sound like stock presets, same can be said for FL studio.

While some of the stock presets sound great, they've likely been used a million times over and should be modified or molded to fit you. I'm no synth expert, but even I can modify a preset to suite my needs.

As for naming what synth is making a particular custom sound, I doubt many people can name what is doing what as they all use the same principles and are likely behind some reverb or some other effect.

Edit:
As for electric mantis, I imagine that if was making the same song in another DAW he would put in just as much effort.

[kitekrazy]

Choosing a daw because it has more tutorials than the other isn't really a good argument to go with.

Since every user needs are different and both daw's have a different type of workflow, in my opinion you should try both of them and see which one suits your needs the most and you feel confortable with.

I think it's a quite good argument that there's plenty of support for new people starting out. Part of the popularity of Ableton is due to the whole community aspect. A lot of people share free patches and also share YouTube tutorials on making complete tracks in every genre.

Agree! FL Studio has been the most popular DAW. Their support is excellent and I think comparing the two are another apples and oranges comparison.

[kitekrazy]

A lot of Trance music was done in Reason before RE's. How did people create all of that great stuff?
Same for FL Studio. Youtube is full of tracks made using 3x Osc.

WHen our skills aren't there it's easy to blame the DAW. There is or was a site dedicated to making Trance in Reason. Can't remember it.

[Karim]

Trance? Daniel Kandi, Mr. Uplifting Trance himself, produced almost all of his most well known tracks in Reason 3. There's just no substitute for having a good ear and a solid understanding of all your tools, no matter what they may be.

Daniel Kandi is my favourite trance artist. In a comment he said is thinking to upgrade Reason soon. Let's see....

Inviato dal mio SM-G925F utilizzando Tapatalk

[lowpryo]

I freely admit that there is a lot that I have yet to learn and that many people on this forum are more educated than I am when it comes to sound design and the applied science of working professionally with audio. While I am highly allergic to presets, there have been cases where "that sound" in "that song" was actually a preset (that everyone liked and no one cared about because catchy). If it works, I don't see the harm.

While I do find it irritating to have to layer more things in Reason because of how specific each device is, compared to redundancy in VST requiring fewer elements to do the same work, yes it is absolutely necessary to layer a lot of things and do a lot of work to find a satisfying result. However, if you're talking FL versus Reason there is a difference in being able to leverage more out of each unit in FL than in Reason. They are very different apps and Reason has a more intuitive feel, but there are times that I would trade the complexity of FL's learning curve for more immediacy, redundancy, and simplicity. More focus on technique and result rather than device selection, signal flow, and patching. But that's me. It gets tedious at times when clearly this is not the standard. Device priority and signal flow within an effect chain is important and is standard, but not the labor intensive process of patching as we know and understand it in Reason. Again, that's just me.

What I should have said about this sounding imported is simply that designing these kinds of sounds and getting this balanced of a spectrum in the final render has been shown by many professional grade Reason releases in the past to be seemingly unobtainable; at least in the sense that no one else has released work of this polish from Reason so far (to my knowledge). I can see why Electric Mantis is different, given that his device count is insanely high, but even while listening carefully for familiar drum samples and synth oscillators, nothing seemed recognizable -- even in timbre. He is obviously very good, but without seeing the sources of the various instruments I wouldn't necessarily be able to snap my fingers and say "Malstrom" or "Subtractor", etc.

So, in summary, sure. There's stuff I don't know yet. I'll get there.

I think maybe you'd be surprised to find how much layering is used in other DAWs as well. I've watched many EDM producers on Youtube using Ableton & FL, and they frequently make basses, chords & leads out of 2, 3, or more synths stacked on top of each other. even with heavy synths like Massive or Serum. same with stacking drum samples & percussion loops. it's a very common technique for getting that SUPER dense EDM sound (it also relies heavily on a good mix!)

and maybe that's the reason you can't distinguish specific oscillators or samples - there's too many, and they're also being obfuscated by FX.

I also bet he uses many drum samples that aren't stock Reason. but that's not a DAW limitation when the DAW allows you to import them.

also, let's not ignore the fact that Mantis' projects are so complex because his tracks are very glitchy and meticulous, with a lot of samples, synths & automation that only appear once or twice in the track. this complexity would require a lot of tracks and devices in any DAW, but don't confuse his complex arrangement with the professional sound that we're talking about.

[chk071]

Everyone and their cows use stuff like Sylenth1, Massive, Spire, Nexus, and the likes, and, IMO, there's a reason to that. I have heard many opinions and arguments around that, but, in the end, those synths have shaped an era of Trance, or EDM music, for a reason. Just like the Minimoog shaped an era of pop music, or funk, hip hop, whatever. There's really no arguing that away. In the past, hardware synths have shaped the sound of the music, and the JP-8000, Virus, or Novation Nova range synths were big for Trance-y sounds. You can surely get there with Reason, and RE's, but, frankly, Thor e.g. doesn't sound as good for Trance supersaw, pluck, or bass sounds, as Sylenth1, or Spire sound. Not to talk about having to use tedious workarounds to get stereo panorama spread, which you can have with said synths out of the box. Same with stuff like Antidote. Sounds ok, but, meh, can have that better really.

Of course, there's also a certain aspect of "I want to sound EXACTLY like the pro tracks". It's interesting what 7 Skies (quite popular producer, i think) says about Spire, and Sylenth1 in this video, at minute 27:19:

The same kind of attachment seems to be still strongly there for many producers of those genres, which, of course, also makes it difficult for other synths to break that kind of monopole Sylenth1 seems to be still having. But, again, can't really argue that away, for a reason. It's just freaking good at what it does. So is Spire though, so Reason users can at least be glad that they will experience that one soon.

[lowpryo]

Everyone and their cows use stuff like Sylenth1, Massive, Spire, Nexus, and the likes, and, IMO, there's a reason to that. I have heard many opinions and arguments around that, but, in the end, those synths have shaped an era of Trance, or EDM music, for a reason. Just like the Minimoog shaped an era of pop music, or funk, hip hop, whatever. There's really no arguing that away. In the past, hardware synths have shaped the sound of the music, and the JP-8000, Virus, or Novation Nova range synths were big for Trance-y sounds. You can surely get there with Reason, and RE's, but, frankly, Thor e.g. doesn't sound as good for Trance supersaw, pluck, or bass sounds, as Sylenth1, or Spire sound. Not to talk about having to use tedious workarounds to get stereo panorama spread, which you can have with said synths out of the box. Same with stuff like Antidote. Sounds ok, but, meh, can have that better really.

Of course, there's also a certain aspect of "I want to sound EXACTLY like the pro tracks". It's interesting what 7 Skies (quite popular producer, i think) says about Spire, and Sylenth1 in this video, at minute 27:19:

The same kind of attachment seems to be still strongly there for many producers of those genres, which, of course, also makes it difficult for other synths to break that kind of monopole Sylenth1 seems to be still having. But, again, can't really argue that away, for a reason. It's just freaking good at what it does. So is Spire though, so Reason users can at least be glad that they will experience that one soon.

I don't like having these conversations without more specifics. what about Thor makes it not good for pluck or bass sounds? I understand the supersaw argument, because it doesn't have unison capabilities and is restricted to the mono Multi-osc and the chorus effect. that's a quantifiable limitation.

but what makes it inferior for saw plucks or basses? is the envelope shape not "snappy" enough? are the saw oscillators or filters different in character? are they aliasing? if there's a difference that makes them worse, we should be able to describe what it is. not just refer what other artists use and say "you can't really argue that!". yes i can, because that's anecdotal fallacy

[chk071]

Synthesizers are very different in terms of sound and what you can do with it. AFAIC, Sylenth1 has more beef, meaning bottom end, and Spire even has more of that. Envelopes also play a big part in that, as do filters, and filter resonance behavior. See, i take the artist references, because, you can say what you want, but, those guys know how to do it, otherwise they weren't where they are now. Especially Sylenth1 wouldn't be such a evergreen if it sucked at what it does, and if you could just replace it with anything else. Still the reference for most of those artists, for supersaw, and pluck sounds.

Here is a sound demo of the Vengeance-Sound soundset for Thor, BTW:



If you're into that kind of music, also check out their Sylenth1 soundsets. Frankly, for me, the sounds in the Thor soundset sound flat, dull, without bang or life (and that was the same impression i always had when messing with it). Compared. It just sounds what a typical soft synth sounded like from, say, early to mid 2000's. Sylenth1 per default has a saturated sound, and the good filter drive lets you even saturate the sound more. Anyway, i'm praising Sylenth1 over the moon here, while Spire actually is IMO even better for typical Trance sounds.E.g., Spire has IMO faster envelopes, and produces more "beef" that way.

[Djstarski]

I have a question . Isn't the sound only as good as the sound designer not the instrument ? if a bad piano player made a piano sound terrible do we blame the piano ?

That Guy Exode can sound design the hell out of Thor . Have you downloaded his Massive Synthesis refill ?

[lowpryo]

Synthesizers are very different in terms of sound and what you can do with it. AFAIC, Sylenth1 has more beef, meaning bottom end, and Spire even has more of that. Envelopes also play a big part in that, as do filters, and filter resonance behavior. See, i take the artist references, because, you can say what you want, but, those guys know how to do it, otherwise they weren't where they are now. Especially Sylenth1 wouldn't be such a evergreen if it sucked at what it does, and if you could just replace it with anything else. Still the reference for most of those artists, for supersaw, and pluck sounds.

Here is a sound demo of the Vengeance-Sound soundset for Thor, BTW:



If you're into that kind of music, also check out their Sylenth1 soundsets. Frankly, for me, the sounds in the Thor soundset sound flat, dull, without bang or life (and that was the same impression i always had when messing with it). Compared. It just sounds what a typical soft synth sounded like from, say, early to mid 2000's. Sylenth1 per default has a saturated sound, and the good filter drive lets you even saturate the sound more. Anyway, i'm praising Sylenth1 over the moon here, while Spire actually is IMO even better for typical Trance sounds.E.g., Spire has IMO faster envelopes, and produces more "beef" that way.

more "bottom end" on their saw waves? saw waves have a set relationship between the fundamental and harmonics. if theirs have more bottom, then they aren't accurate saw waves. that's weird, but maybe.

you can take the artists' preference as gospel if you want. I'm just saying that doesn't prove or disprove anything about Reason's capabilities. if you have evidence that they also learned Thor and weren't able to produce good results, that would be a little more convincing.

I agree those Vengeance patches are dull. but I found a sample of their Sylenth1 pack and it's all arranged and mixed with multiple drums and synths. very hard to compare the quality, of course the full tracks will "pop" more. if you have audio of solo Sylenth or Spire patches that you think are unobtainable, I'd love to hear them. maybe we can do a little challenge to see if anyone can get close with a solo Thor! turn this into a fun learning experience.

[Kaosis]

Here's a question, why are you guys comparing a default device to an aftermarket device? Why not compare sylenth1 to say antidote or khs one or some other RE?

[chk071]

I agree those Vengeance patches are dull. but I found a sample of their Sylenth1 pack and it's all arranged and mixed with multiple drums and synths. very hard to compare the quality, of course the full tracks will "pop" more. if you have audio of solo Sylenth or Spire patches that you think are unobtainable, I'd love to hear them. maybe we can do a little challenge to see if anyone can get close with a solo Thor! turn this into a fun learning experience.

The issue with such "challenges" is that the outcome will be that you, or someone else will claim it's cool, and close enough, and all, and if i will say it isn't, then you will say "No, it is", or you will say with a bit more work it could be even closer. Believe me, been there and did it.

About the artist thing: Well... if you take a look in electronic music history, you'll see that artists often resorted to use certain machines, which were considered as well suited for a musical genre, or for typical kind of sounds. Bass sounds in Funk, hip hop, wherever - Moog synths, Acid lines -TB-303. Supersaw or pluck sounds - Novation Nova, Roland JP-8000, Access Virus... later soft synths like Z3TA got used, and when Sylenth1 came out, that one was used massively, until today. It may not mean much to you, but, i heard the argument that the synth doesn't matter too much pretty much since i started to mess with electronic music creation on my computer. And, i frankly never quite got it. My usual reply is that we could all just use Synth1, and be happily ever after. Right? Well, not quite. I think we are all striving for quality in our music. A lot of that depends on the creator, but a creator can only do so much. If we use a sepcific synth, and there are better options, for the specific thing we're doing (although my belief is that it's quite universal...), then, it will be noticed in our music. For example, there is just no way around a weak sounding filter, and slow envelopes. If you want to create sounds, which are based on having strong sounding filters, and snappy envelopes, with a lot of "bang", also resulting from the filter resonance behavior, there is no way to achieve with a synth, which is just not capable of that. For example, i used to use about every free VST synth there is, and also used the magware Dune 1 for a while. I could never got the sounds out of it i can get out of Spire, or Sylenth1. No freakin' way. The filters are kind of weak, the envelopes have no bang, the unison is not wide, because, obviously, they use linear stereo, or unison spread. Also, the supersaw always sounds kind of harsh, and unpleasant. I used both Dune CM/BE, and Z3TA for quite some time, and never really felt i get the results out of it, that i'm really aiming for.

Anyway, story cut short, there is a reason why the "usual suspect" synths are so popular. You get what you pay for, bla bla. Well, it is mostly true really. That doesn't mean that you couldn't make music with other stuff. But, frankly, if there are two bakeries side by side, and all the people go to one of them, there's got to be a reason for it. Either one of them charges way too much for what he's doing, is unfriendly to every customer, or one of them simply bakes the better bread.

[chk071]

Here's a question, why are you guys comparing a default device to an aftermarket device? Why not compare sylenth1 to say antidote or khs one or some other RE?

Good question. I think, at the latest when Spire is being released as a RE, we won't have to hold this discussion anymore anyway.

BTW, a great example for the thing we're discussing would be the Legend RE. Now, tell me what that does, what Subtractor (or any other Reason included synth device) doesn't do. Seriously, tell me. I'm thrilled to hear the answer.

[lowpryo]

I agree those Vengeance patches are dull. but I found a sample of their Sylenth1 pack and it's all arranged and mixed with multiple drums and synths. very hard to compare the quality, of course the full tracks will "pop" more. if you have audio of solo Sylenth or Spire patches that you think are unobtainable, I'd love to hear them. maybe we can do a little challenge to see if anyone can get close with a solo Thor! turn this into a fun learning experience.

The issue with such "challenges" is that the outcome will be that you, or someone else will claim it's cool, and close enough, and all, and if i will say it isn't, then you will say "No, it is", or you will say with a bit more work it could be even closer. Believe me, been there and did it.

sorry you had bad experiences before. I didn't plan on that because I'm willing to admit that Thor has flaws, but I'm curious to really test the limits of it. these conversations never convince anyone either way. if you don't wanna provide samples, I guess I'll choose a Sylenth1 demo and try to match it by myself. sounds like a fun little task for tonight haha

About the artist thing: Well... if you take a look in electronic music history, you'll see that artists often resorted to use certain machines, which were considered as well suited for a musical genre, or for typical kind of sounds. Bass sounds in Funk, hip hop, wherever - Moog synths, Acid lines -TB-303. Supersaw or pluck sounds - Novation Nova, Roland JP-8000, Access Virus... later soft synths like Z3TA got used, and when Sylenth1 came out, that one was used massively, until today. It may not mean much to you, but, i heard the argument that the synth doesn't matter too much pretty much since i started to mess with electronic music creation on my computer. And, i frankly never quite got it. My usual reply is that we could all just use Synth1, and be happily ever after. Right? Well, not quite. I think we are all striving for quality in our music. A lot of that depends on the creator, but a creator can only do so much. If we use a sepcific synth, and there are better options, for the specific thing we're doing (although my belief is that it's quite universal...), then, it will be noticed in our music. For example, there is just no way around a weak sounding filter, and slow envelopes. If you want to create sounds, which are based on having strong sounding filters, and snappy envelopes, with a lot of "bang", also resulting from the filter resonance behavior, there is no way to achieve with a synth, which is just not capable of that. For example, i used to use about every free VST synth there is, and also used the magware Dune 1 for a while. I could never got the sounds out of it i can get out of Spire, or Sylenth1. No freakin' way. The filters are kind of weak, the envelopes have no bang, the unison is not wide, because, obviously, they use linear stereo, or unison spread. Also, the supersaw always sounds kind of harsh, and unpleasant. I used both Dune CM/BE, and Z3TA for quite some time, and never really felt i get the results out of it, that i'm really aiming for.

Anyway, story cut short, there is a reason why the "usual suspect" synths are so popular. You get what you pay for, bla bla. Well, it is mostly true really. That doesn't mean that you couldn't make music with other stuff. But, frankly, if there are two bakeries side by side, and all the people go to one of them, there's got to be a reason for it. Either one of them charges way too much for what he's doing, is unfriendly to every customer, or one of them simply bakes the better bread.

what defines a "weak" filter? it has specific phase characteristics that sound bad to you? do both the ladder and state-variable ones have the same problem? also, if Thor's envelopes aren't "snappy" enough, you can easily set up recursive modulation in the mod matrix to change its curve. have the Filter Env mod the Filter Decay, set it to a negative value, and you get more snap. sure it's not a simple knob, but it's 4 clicks away. no outside devices or routing needed.

I won't deny that different synths have different characteristics. of course they all have strengths and weaknesses. I just want to fully understand Thor's weaknesses in this context.

for your bakery analogy: if you're comparing why Reason is less popular than other DAWs and VSTs... maybe it's because Reason didn't have audio-editing capabilities for 11 years, and lacked third-party support for a year after that? maybe the other bakeries gained their customer-base and reputation while Reason's bakery fell behind, but that has nothing to do with the quality of the "bread".