Doubt with reason 9 vs fl studio 12

[chk071]

what defines a "weak" filter? it has specific phase characteristics that sound bad to you? do both the ladder and state-variable ones have the same problem? also, if Thor's envelopes aren't "snappy" enough, you can easily set up recursive modulation in the mod matrix to change its curve? have the Filter Env mod the Filter Decay, set it to a negative value, and you get more snap. sure it's not a simple knob, but it's 4 clicks away. no outside devices or routing needed.

I'll give you an example on that: You can also set custom curves on the envelopes in Synthmaster. Yet the dev admitted that the envelopes in Synthmaster are way too slow (he also mentioned the actual speed, but, i can't remember it by now) for snappy, "analog" sounds, and promised to fix that in a future version of Synthmaster. Another example would be Dune 2, which also allows for custom curves, via the MSEG. Yet the developer implemented "analog" circuit modelled envelopes with version 2.5, to make the envelopes more "snappy". I have no idea, what they actually did with them, but, it surely makes a difference. Still not 100% happy with that, because the filters also lose a lot of bang, when you raise the resonance. The new Expander filters work a bit better in that regard, but, still not totally convincing for me. Difficult thing to get right, it seems.

Actually, for a similar discussion on KVR Audio, i already uploaded a sound example from NI's Monark once, which shows how snappy its envelopes are, and how much bang there is in the filter, with higher resonance settings:



Of course, that's something also Spire, or Sylenth1 can't match, Spire specifically, because the filter resonance doesn't nearly reach that level. Just an example of a sound, which isn't possible, if the synth doesn't have fast envelopes, or such a resonant behavior. That's a dry sound BTW, no FX, EQ, or anything used. Notice especially the "ooomph", when the filter decay closes the filter cutoff.

[lowpryo]

what defines a "weak" filter? it has specific phase characteristics that sound bad to you? do both the ladder and state-variable ones have the same problem? also, if Thor's envelopes aren't "snappy" enough, you can easily set up recursive modulation in the mod matrix to change its curve? have the Filter Env mod the Filter Decay, set it to a negative value, and you get more snap. sure it's not a simple knob, but it's 4 clicks away. no outside devices or routing needed.

I'll give you an example on that: You can also set custom curves on the envelopes in Synthmaster. Yet the dev admitted that the envelopes in Synthmaster are way too slow (he also mentioned the actual speed, but, i can't remember it by now) for snappy, "analog" sounds, and promised to fix that in a future version of Synthmaster. Another example would be Dune 2, which also allows for custom curves, via the MSEG. Yet the developer implemented "analog" circuit modelled envelopes with version 2.5, to make the envelopes more "snappy". I have no idea, what they actually did with them, but, it surely makes a difference. Still not 100% happy with that, because the filters also lose a lot of bang, when you raise the resonance. The new Expander filters work a bit better in that regard, but, still not totally convincing for me. Difficult thing to get right, it seems.

Actually, for a similar discussion on KVR Audio, i already uploaded a sound example from NI's Monark once, which shows how snappy its envelopes are, and how much bang there is in the filter, with higher resonance settings:



Of course, that's something also Spire, or Sylenth1 can't match, Spire specifically, because the filter resonance doesn't nearly reach that level. Just an example of a sound, which isn't possible, if the synth doesn't have fast envelopes, or such a resonant behavior. That's a dry sound BTW, no FX, EQ, or anything used. Notice especially the "ooomph", when the filter decay closes the filter cutoff.

very nice. I have noticed that many soft synths do break down or get weaker at higher resonance settings, but like you said, that's not exclusive to Thor. if I ever want that thick resonance chirp sound in Reason I reach for the Primal Audio filter rack extensions. uses a lot more CPU but that's just what it takes!

also like I said before, the recursive modulation really helps to get that "snap". when you modulate the filter's decay by itself, you get that faster exponential decay instead of the more linear decay that Thor has by default.

[chk071]

I have noticed that many soft synths do break down or get weaker at higher resonance settings, but like you said, that's not exclusive to Thor.

Yeah. Definitely not here to bash Thor or something, it's just that i feel, like the other Reason included devices, and also the RE's i tried, it's often that they suffer from the "typical" issues. Actually, there are very few soft synths in general, Reason or not, which get the filters, and envelopes right, IMO.

also like I said before, the recursive modulation really helps to get that "snap". I believe that's similar to what he meant by changing the "speed" of the envelope - using a faster exponential decay rather than a linear decay. when you modulate the filter's decay by itself, that makes it exponential.

I just searched for the KVR topic, where the developer of Synthmaster posted about the speed of Synthmaster's envelopes. Here is the post i referred to: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... s#p6212614 So, nope, not enough to have custom curves, or similar available for the envelopes. Looks like he measured the speed of envelopes in analog synths, and modelled the new Synthmaster envelopes after that.

I think another "side effect" of fast envelopes is also the "click" on a sine wave. Try that on a few synths, VST, or RE, and you will find that there are some which have a big "click" sound on the start of a sine, or triangle wave, while in others, even if you can set the phase to retrigger, and start the phase at a position where the amplitude of the waveform is high, it just doesn't produce a click. Take that with a pinch of salt though, as i'm not 100% sure, if that really has to do with the speed of the envelopes. It sounded to me like it though. Again, some synths which have the typical click sound on the sine wave would be Spire, Monark, Waldorf Largo, if you want to try those out.

[lowpryo]

I just searched for the KVR topic, where the developer of Synthmaster posted about the speed of Synthmaster's envelopes. Here is the post i referred to: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... s#p6212614 So, nope, not enough to have custom curves, or similar available for the envelopes. Looks like he measured the speed of envelopes in analog synths, and modelled the new Synthmaster envelopes after that.

I think another "side effect" of fast envelopes is also the "click" on a sine wave. Try that on a few synths, VST, or RE, and you will find that there are some which have a big "click" sound on the start of a sine, or triangle wave, while in others, even if you can set the phase to retrigger, and start the phase at a position where the amplitude of the waveform is high, it just doesn't produce a click. Take that with a pinch of salt though, as i'm not 100% sure, if that really has to do with the speed of the envelopes. It sounded to me like it though. Again, some synths which have the typical click sound on the sine wave would be Spire, Monark, Waldorf Largo, if you want to try those out.

wow, interesting that a decay under 12ms is needed to get an analog "snap". that seems so fast that it's more like click or pop territory than a thick snap. I guess all these words are subjective though. if Thor's total envelope time doesn't go that fast (can't check now), there are probably other devices that can make a faster envelope to take the CV from (I realize this is a Thor limitation, and would be more tedious than using a synth with better native speeds)

do you think that "click" is a good or bad thing? because I wouldn't be surprised if some synths actually try to program that out, because it's essentially the fast envelopes distorting the shape of the wave.

[chk071]

do you think that "click" is a good or bad thing? because I wouldn't be surprised if some synths actually try to program that out, because it's essentially the fast envelopes distorting the shape of the wave.

Could well be. For me, it's quite a desirable thing, but, i guess that comes down to what you personally prefer. I guess you could always dial in a bit of attack, to get rid of it, so, at least the option to have it would be cool. Actually, Tone2 Icarus has a "click" parameter, which does that, create a more "clicky" sound. I think many (most? all?) analog synths have that click, which, of course, in VCO's should be pretty random, because the osc's are free-running.

An example of the utilization of such clicky sounds is in this track (starting at 1:43):

If i'm not completely mistaken, that's one of Waldorf's hardware synths used there, at least i know that he is, or was using some of those. Could well be that some sounds were layered to achieve that though.

[Oquasec]

If I had to pick between fl studio 13 and reason 5 I'd pick reason 5 over fl studio 13.
Yep.

[Audiotic]

All the examples above clearly illustrate that it's all about the production of the music.
Reason is an inspiring tool that has come a far way since 1.0.... (which I feel is still the base for many of these discussions)
If you have the pleasure, the patience and maybe a bit of talent (although I'd rather use the word motivation) then Reason will not be the factor preventing you from getting where you want to go!

[RandomSkratch]

Those 2 guys literally KICKS ASSES!!!

and Riemac, ( A user of this forum )

Wait a sec, those 2 guys actually beat someone up during their Reason tutorial? That's a little much don't you think?

[Jonathan10]

I like the Malstrom filters. Would be nice if their was some good re filters. So far they all seem pretty lousy accept etch red kind of cool. But even the etch red is crap next to Tone 2 Bifilter vst which is free now as cm vst. Pls more interesting filters!

[SA Studio]

Bless our hearts! Reason users are quite a loyal bunch!

We're defending the 2006-7 creation of Thor, a decade old synth in an era of extremely fast progress being made in the EDM music genre.

Check us out! Still defending Thor as if it's a remotely comparable modern tool as Serum.

It's not, but we love Thor!

[Oquasec]

It is. and can do more things than many synths. Massive is extremely limited.
Serum is a good synth but not the all in one powerhouse that is the modular/all in one production suites.

Not to mention sylenth looks like a rack device and is one of the most popular vsts out there due to it's "not surprising" layout.
Also parsec was props last synth.

[tronam]

I think people should start to prove how Reason sounds superior vs other DAWs. If you can't make a song ala fucking WOW with it, and prove it with a Reason file - it remains being a toy.

listen to Electric Mantis, he produces on reason 6.5



proof of his DAW, on facebook videos:
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video. ... 7115446%2F

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video. ... 9082098%2F

is that "WOW" enough? ok good, no more excuses, go get better!

Electric Mantis has climbed in stature pretty quickly over the past year, especially after one of his tracks went viral on Reddit a while back. He scored quite the high profile client recently, Apple, producing music for their just launched photography how-to videos: https://www.apple.com/iphone/photography-how-to/

[xbitz]

dunno the final sound quality (vs FL Studio) because of the massive CPU limitation of the beta (can't build proper layering etc.), but

the rack view is still awesome, I'm superhappy to able to use Reason again after FL Studio

[EdGrip]

dunno the final sound quality (vs FL Studio) because of the massive CPU limitation of the beta (can't build proper layering etc.), but
the rack view is still awesome, I'm superhappy to able to use Reason again after FL Studio

Doin' It Right ^

[kitekrazy]

dunno the final sound quality (vs FL Studio) because of the massive CPU limitation of the beta (can't build proper layering etc.), but

the rack view is still awesome, I'm superhappy to able to use Reason again after FL Studio

I like that dual monitor setup.

[xbitz]

the mixer also likes it

[deepndark]

I think people should start to prove how Reason sounds superior vs other DAWs. If you can't make a song ala fucking WOW with it, and prove it with a Reason file - it remains being a toy.

listen to Electric Mantis, he produces on reason 6.5



proof of his DAW, on facebook videos:
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video. ... 7115446%2F

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video. ... 9082098%2F

is that "WOW" enough? ok good, no more excuses, go get better!

Electric Mantis has climbed in stature pretty quickly over the past year, especially after one of his tracks went viral on Reddit a while back. He scored quite the high profile client recently, Apple, producing music for their just launched photography how-to videos: https://www.apple.com/iphone/photography-how-to/

Um, ok, this wasn't so good to prove anything, my own ish is better.

[Oquasec]

As a guy who never quit usin reason, every new device and update matters a fuckton

[tronam]

Um, ok, this wasn't so good to prove anything, my own ish is better.

Check out his Soundcloud profile. It's not what I would've considered to be my style of music, but I think his production talent is remarkable, no matter what DAW he uses.