Reason vs VST "sound" challenge

[Benedict]

Mr Sutdio I can only assume you didn't read the article to go with the video as it has absolutely nothing to do with drum machines (80s or otherwise). Nor am I even trying to compare patches or limiters, merely the overall feel one may get starting a session in a "typical" DAW compared to Reason.

As for your comment that Reason Sound is in great part from laziness, on that, we do agree - but even that is beyond the intent of this thread.

With your experience do you have anything positive and factual to add to the reasons for this thread?

[mguh22]

True artists uses Reason with 'Load Default Sound in New Devices' unticked; plus they only use 100% their own samples in the sampler devices.

[Gorgon]

True artists uses Reason with 'Load Default Sound in New Devices' unticked; plus they only use 100% their own samples in the sampler devices.

Don't post the same message in different threads. Especially nonsense like this.

[Massimo]

I polished the combinator a bit...now with only straight control over the multi osc.
Files attached with an attempt to mimic the Sallent Key filter...first is Thor...second Antidote.
Not there 100%...but good enough for a simulation...

Just joking but...is there also a "Sound Cloud sound"???
Sounds quite a bit different from my original file...

[The_G]

Just joking but...is there also a "Sound Cloud sound"???

Yes. It's called "super crappy 128kz file compression."

[WongoTheSane]

Just joking but...is there also a "Sound Cloud sound"???

Yes. It's called "super crappy 128kz file compression."

Please stop disseminating fake news. They upgraded to Utter Crappy 128k long ago.

[mguh22]

Don't post the same message in different threads. Especially nonsense like this.

A nonsense thread deserves a nonsense post!

Seriously, I can't believe people are still harping on about the 'Reason sound' or, as is the other common one I see, asking for 'VST support' in Reason in 2017! It's clearly not the right platform to use exclusively if one needs to keep making stuff in other DAWs and use VSTs to get the sound desired. I would argue that for those who feel their musical ideas sound inferior out of Reason, maybe it isn't the software that has the inferiority? Maybe Reason is a more accurate reflection of their skill level and other DAWs simply have a better Auto-Talent fooling mechanism due to their overproduced sounds out of the box to impress a dumbed-down audience?

[avasopht]

Nice Massimo.

I much preferred the synth sound of Thor but the tail of Antidote.

[SA Studio]

Mr Sutdio I can only assume you didn't read the article to go with the video as it has absolutely nothing to do with drum machines (80s or otherwise). Nor am I even trying to compare patches or limiters, merely the overall feel one may get starting a session in a "typical" DAW compared to Reason.

As for your comment that Reason Sound is in great part from laziness, on that, we do agree - but even that is beyond the intent of this thread.

With your experience do you have anything positive and factual to add to the reasons for this thread?

"Can YOU deliver a comparable sound in a similarly simple Reason session?"

That was your mission statement of your post here. You even put it in bold.

Of course I have an immense amount of positive things to say. In fact, I have been saying positive things, as far as the industry is concerned. Perhaps my questioning the intent of the demonstration is somehow being negative? It's a really bad demonstration in my opinion, is all.

"My initial 2 cents is that I think that a lot of the VST/DAW sound seems to rely on a lot of Limiting, allowing the whole session to sound huge from the first sound. Reason tends to default all patches to -12db but not the same in VST-land as they can be hitting the pin from the first Kik and every sound after is just as loud so even two sounds are "pumping".

That is an incorrect assessment. You even propose that other DAWs themselves employ "Limiting" from the get-go. That says to me you don't know what Limiting is, frankly. To assume a DAW would "rely on Limiting" as if it's some kind of inherent effect that's always on, is not something I would expect a seasoned producer to assume. You even mention that VST's themselves employ a type of hidden or secret "Limiting" in order to sound bigger. That's just not remotely the case.

Either way, your video tries to show a very basic 80's drum module played in two different DAWs as if to show..."Look guys, there's no difference!".

That's incredibly basic, is all I'm saying. That, and Limiting is not something that's on by default in any DAW or VST or VSTi.

Lastly, if a Limiter makes your sound "huge", it's because your monitors weren't up loud even before you activated the Limiter

[avasopht]

That's incredibly basic, is all I'm saying. That, and Limiting is not something that's on by default in any DAW or VST or VSTi.

It's on by default in FL Studio in the master bus set with 5.5 dB of gain, and a threshold of 0 dB.

[SA Studio]

That's incredibly basic, is all I'm saying. That, and Limiting is not something that's on by default in any DAW or VST or VSTi.

It's on by default in FL Studio in the master bus set with 5.5 dB of gain, and a threshold of 0 dB.

Ok, so Ableton has a Limiter in it's default template. Interesting. (As does Reason, but the Mastering Suite in the default template isn't on or activated)

Does Logic? Pro Tools? Reaper? Studio One? Cubase?

Does any VST have hidden "Limiting"?

No.

[avasopht]

Ok, so Ableton has a Limiter in it's default template. Interesting.

Does Logic? Pro Tools? Reaper? Studio One? Cubase?

Does any VST have hidden "Limiting"?

No.

Pretty sure Logic throws in a compressor / limiter / eq with some of its default patches for things like the Drum Kit Designer and other instruments from the "explorer" (or whatever it's called).

Haven't used it for a hot 3 years, mind you.

[SA Studio]

Any way you want to slice this, "Limiting" is not any remote type of advantage that anything is employing that's making it sound better or more "huge" from the get-go.

VST's do not rely on "Limiting" to sound good.

[avasopht]

I wouldn't say VSTs are relying on limiting to sound good, but when a new user throws a sample into FL Studio and compares it to Reason, they are unlikely to attribute the increased harmonic content to the boosted limiter they know nothing about.

In terms of the sound challenge, I think it's good to demonstrate what sounds are possible with actual sound demos, especially for people who are new, unsure why they don't sound like Drake's newest track and probably being told in other forums it's because they're using Reason.

[SA Studio]

I wouldn't say VSTs are relying on limiting to sound good, but when a new user throws a sample into FL Studio and compares it to Reason, they are unlikely to attribute the increased harmonic content to the boosted limiter they know nothing about.

In terms of the sound challenge, I think it's good to demonstrate what sounds are possible with actual sound demos, especially for people who are new, unsure why they don't sound like Drake's newest track and probably being told in other forums it's because they're using Reason.

Well, it's because that can't be said. Simple. VST's do not employ hidden or secret "Limiting'. Nor do any other DAWs.

[Jagwah]

As for contributing to this discussion I would like to say one thing:

Native Instrument's Massive.

[Oquasec]

Ah. digital signal processing.

[The_G]

Some Logic library patches have limiters on them, others have multiband compressors. Presets for the bundled audio units (Retro Synth, Alchemy, etc.) do not. No VST/AU synth that I own defaults with a limiter (or even compressor) on. Can't speak to the ones I don't own, or haven't used, but I've never seen any evidence of this, and have seen plenty to the contrary. So I think that's an off-base assertion.

Some VST/AUs do have higher gain settings that others (e.g. Diva vs. FM8)...I usually turn Diva down. It also does sound "fat" compared to a lot of other synths, because of how it stacks voices. You can always mimic this with combinators. Or use it with rewire. Or use it in another DAW. Or not use it, because it sometimes takes up too much space in a mix

[FLVZ]

Not everyone wants to build a Combinator for everything though. People want to make their music and sounds. Not build Combinator a and make their rack a total mess with Combis. Yes this is the way we had to do it in 2000-2011 but still a single OTT Re would do wonders on EDM centric sounds!

I managed to replicate this OTT compressor setting following Selig's advice regarding the principles of the effect. I used the MB-Comp RE called Splex which has the ability to expand as well as compress. Set the ratio (of the high band) to 0.100:1, threshold lowered to -36db and instantly the buzzy present effect you find in a lot of EDM lead synths is achieved. Takes less than 30s to achieve, no VSTs required

[avasopht]

As for contributing to this discussion I would like to say one thing:

Native Instrument's Massive.

Massive is smooth and silky!

[riemac]

Not everyone wants to build a Combinator for everything though. People want to make their music and sounds. Not build Combinator a and make their rack a total mess with Combis. Yes this is the way we had to do it in 2000-2011 but still a single OTT Re would do wonders on EDM centric sounds!

I managed to replicate this OTT compressor setting following Selig's advice regarding the principles of the effect. I used the MB-Comp RE called Splex which has the ability to expand as well as compress. Set the ratio (of the high band) to 0.100:1, threshold lowered to -36db and instantly the buzzy present effect you find in a lot of EDM lead synths is achieved. Takes less than 30s to achieve, no VSTs required

Yes, you are right, Splex can do upward compression with negative ratios. This produces some similar effects like the OTT, especialy, when you put a second Splex behind it with downward compression.

The only problem is, that you can not control the amount of upward compression.
In the manuel is written, that the upward compression is limitted to a maximum of +30 dB.
It would be nice if the developer could put a knob on the backside of Splex to adjust the maximum
level of expansion between +0 an +30 dB.

[Benedict]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yktzy2bqejmzf ... .thor?dl=0

[lowpryo]

Not everyone wants to build a Combinator for everything though. People want to make their music and sounds. Not build Combinator a and make their rack a total mess with Combis. Yes this is the way we had to do it in 2000-2011 but still a single OTT Re would do wonders on EDM centric sounds!

I managed to replicate this OTT compressor setting following Selig's advice regarding the principles of the effect. I used the MB-Comp RE called Splex which has the ability to expand as well as compress. Set the ratio (of the high band) to 0.100:1, threshold lowered to -36db and instantly the buzzy present effect you find in a lot of EDM lead synths is achieved. Takes less than 30s to achieve, no VSTs required

maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds different than OTT. OTT uses upwards compression, not expansion. The difference is that upwards compression raises quiet sounds up to a certain threshold, but doesn't impact loud sounds.

with your Splex setup, all quiet AND loud sounds above your -36dB threshold are being increased in volume. I think you're hearing a high frequency boost, not the squashed high frequency detail that OTT gives.

I think Selig's Leveler is the only upwards compression in the shop right now and you can make a combinator solution with that

[FLVZ]

Not everyone wants to build a Combinator for everything though. People want to make their music and sounds. Not build Combinator a and make their rack a total mess with Combis. Yes this is the way we had to do it in 2000-2011 but still a single OTT Re would do wonders on EDM centric sounds!

I managed to replicate this OTT compressor setting following Selig's advice regarding the principles of the effect. I used the MB-Comp RE called Splex which has the ability to expand as well as compress. Set the ratio (of the high band) to 0.100:1, threshold lowered to -36db and instantly the buzzy present effect you find in a lot of EDM lead synths is achieved. Takes less than 30s to achieve, no VSTs required

maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds different than OTT. OTT uses upwards compression, not expansion. The difference is that upwards compression raises quiet sounds up to a certain threshold, but doesn't impact loud sounds.

with your Splex setup, all quiet AND loud sounds above your -36dB threshold are being increased in volume. I think you're hearing a high frequency boost, not the squashed high frequency detail that OTT gives.

I think Selig's Leveler is the only upwards compression in the shop right now and you can make a combinator solution with that

Maybe I'm wrong in assuming this, but I thought thats what upward compression was (expansion) ? Like you said the loud noises don't affect the set up its only when it gets quiet that you hear the sizzle actually. I built the setup based on what Selig said on the first page of the thread where he qouted a dude explaining the OTT I think.

Again, relevant bit reposted from above:
"The main part of the sound is the upward compression (and the tough part to reproduce with a typical compressor) is applying (up to 36 dB but not more) of gain to a quiet (below threshold) signal."

So if expansion is not upward compression, how do you describe it, because it is actually only applying gain to the quiet signal as said....

[lowpryo]

So if expansion is not upward compression, how do you describe it, because it is actually only applying gain to the quiet signal as said....

it's not, unfortunately. I just trialed Splex to confirm. I used your same settings (0.100:1 ratio, -36dB threshold on the high band) on a snare drum that was peaking at -12dB. after applying, it was peaking at +9dB. this is because there is no upper limit on an expander. it's applying that ratio to everything above your threshold, not just quiet sounds.

the difference between an upwards compressor and an expander is in the name. compressor reduces dynamic range, and expander increases it. there are downwards compressors (most typical ones), upwards compressors (like Selig Leveler), downwards expanders (like noise gates), and upwards expanders (like on Splex)