New laptop advice thread

[Theo.M]

Hey guys, after 4 years and 4 months of using the exact same 2.2 ghz, i7 quad macbook pro, it is time to upgrade!
I am moving back in with my folks for a few years, and helping them out financially in doing so (long story), so they are going to buy me a computer, anything i want (anything i want in one machine only of course) as a thank you.

The thing is, what I am looking for is a laptop, and unfortunately it HAS to be a laptop, that will give me noticeable improvement in my RE count.

I have NO experience with Retina macs, in fact i have never even seen the screen of one up close in person, ever (no joke).
Since they are the only macbook pros around now, i need to know, hows does reason work in these? They are 2880 x 1800 or something like that, how on earth would I be able to see any buttons and text in Reason? Or does it scale back? Does it look ok scaled?

I am sure someone here is using a retina macbook so would love to hear your replies.

I would also love to know what speed you are using if your macbook has been bought in the last 12 months and how performance is for you.
I will be waiting for the next cpu revision which should be filtering to macbooks later this year - since it will be another 4 year proposition there is more sense in waiting just a tiny bit longer since the current cpu's have been in there for quite a while.. might as well get the next gen.

I have 2 unused elgato thunderbolt SSD from 4 years back, bus powered, so they will be awesome in connecting to the thunderbolt ports to load my reason refills from.

I was thinking the 1TB onboard flash is worth the extra money in this case because i am on a 750gb mechanical in the current one and it's always running very full. However i will definitely be able to offset alot of the samples on the ssd thunderbolt drives but isn't it worth having the extra capacity just to have it as you may need it one day?

Now, i am NOT *entirely* opposed to buying a POWERFUL, KICKASS windows laptop instead, IF i can get something MORE powerful than the macbook pro and if it's a low noise machine. I also thought 17" with numeric keypad and actually 4 or 5 usb rather than 2 would be handy. I might not even need a hub at all that way. Less cords

So if you have any experience with windows lappies too, I would love to hear it. I am looking for whatever I can get that will runt the most RE's in real time.

My first preference, and a very strong one at that, is mac, but all I mean is i am not closed minded to be swayed the other way if i can get something more powerful. This is not about money this time so no need to use the save money with windows argument, since I am not paying for this - for me this time it's all about brute force without being too noisy, ad in a laptop format. I have a coolermaster ergostand 3 which is an amazing cooler and barely audible at full speed, it has actually helped the current mac to stop throttling as it takes much longer to get it to those ultra high temps, and i will be using that under the new one of course. it also has cable management and a hub that works well for dongles and flash drives.

So that's about it for now, would love to hear your suggestions.. no holds barred, whatever mac laptop money can buy with every option, or a bulky windows beast?

[Raveshaper]

I would take a look at this thing from MSI. It's meant for graphics cards, but nothing says you can't put an audio card in there if you're resourceful. If the system that docks with this is capable enough, I would seriously consider one if you're in the market.

http://www.computershopper.com/computex ... -connector

EDIT: If you go retina, two things. First, you obviously can't service them. Second, if you gig with them, their chassis is thinner and will deform if it's dented or banged around too much. MD104LL/A is the best workhorse in terms of touring machines that can survive the road. But you need to get a data doubler kit for a second drive and increase its memory, etc.

[Theo.M]

QwaizanG thank you.. I would get the three year applecare, the maximum ram and hard drive space from the factory, and I most definitely don't gig.. the *reason*it has to be a laptop is because i have so many bad days where i am in pain just walking with my back that i stay in my bed and do alot of composition there.

I am sort of confused about that MSI thing - i absolutely don't need an audio card as i am honestly more than happy with my mbox 3 which is usb.. the drivers are great and it sounds good enough to me.

Basically this topic is all about straight up laptop suggestions, for reason and RE's, so I am still all ears

[EnochLight]

Do you have a budget ceiling?  I mean, if the sky's the limit then the fastest Windows laptop will really give the fastest Macbook out there a run for its money.  But... If you go to a Windows laptop, you'll need to factor in any additional software costs (not Reason and RE's, since they're OS agnostic - snap!) but any other "Mac only" software that you're dedicated to.  Might be a pain to look for PC counterparts, and you can obviously kiss Logic goodbye.  

You can get "desktop class" performance out of the EON15-X:

http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/pc- ... 075/review

I mean, pretty much all of the higher end "gaming" laptops would be a good choice for a DAW, as they'll have the fastest CPU, a dedicated GPU that won't waste your CPU clock cycles, and a fair amount of RAM.

But then.. you'll be walking away from an Apple ecosystem that you may have a great appreciation for, Apple's warranty and customer care, etc..  I dunno - that's a tough one.

Oh and, as far as using Reason on a Retina display, if it looks anything like a typical 4K monitor, I'm going to guess with certainty that it'll look microscopic and fuzzy if zoomed in on.  YMMV...

[Theo.M]

Hi thanks mate! Yes it's true I have alot of money invested in music apps/games/ and of course logic in the app store. However i thought about either selling this lappy for scraps, or juts reformatting it and keeping it for all my games and other apps. I mean i paid 2.4k for it and it won't be worth more than 500 now, it's not worth it. It has given me four and a half great years.
There is no real ceiling here, mum just said she would buy me whatever machine i want, the "best of the best".
I really don't want to make an error. BTW, logic runs fine on this laptop, it's reason that gives me the overloads much more often. I could even keep this as a logic machine for old projects. But my future is Reason, it's that simple. So i want something to run reason well, and as many RE's as possible in real time before needing to bounce.

The thing I worry about is with all those gaming laptops, is noise. I heard the desktop replacement ones often sound like hoovers just at their stock idle setting. 
My macbook used to ramp up and get loud also but only at 80 degrees or above, and now with this coolermaster laptop cooler, it is basically 10 times better and rarely gets loud anymore.

I suppose another option if i go windows is adkproaudio.com who basically do nothing other than build PC's for music and they test them all for dpc latency too, so you know if you get one from there it will perform well. But even Scott who owns it told me that the bigger ones are noisy  - in fact it was along the lines of "you won't find anything as quiet as the macbooks".
Granted this was a couple years back when i was asking him some questions.

I am more concerned now about the retina issue.. fuzzy and microscopic is not my thing, that's for sure. 
There must be at least one user here who is currently using a retina macbook with reason so I will just hope that they see this topic and can chime in at some point.

Thanks Enoch for the link to the windows beasty, i will go ahead and read that through right now. Cheers mate.

PS even though it is impossible to find a non retina new macbook, the main thing for me is power. Power first, noise second, how reason looks third.. well they are important, so let's just say they are the three things.

[Theo.M]

Hmm, this is interesting.. I put in retina macbook propellerhead and have been scouring google for answers, and found this props tweet from 3 years back..

so surely if version 6 was ok then then they would have designed V8 with retina in mind to at least look good when scaled at different resolutions.

[selig]

I've only worked on a Retina iMac (and iPhone) for any extended period of time, and one thing I can say is it is NOT fuzzy (just the opposite). When you see the new retina iMac next to a non-retina iMac you can see they are the same screen "resolution" - so no shrinkage there! 

So far I've found the retina to be easier on my aging eyes, so I count that as a plus for me. 

In the end you'll want to try to see them in person to help make a final decision IMO - hope your back behaves itself long enough for you to do so.

Happy shopping!

[Theo.M]

I've only worked on a Retina iMac (and iPhone) for any extended period of time, and one thing I can say is it is NOT fuzzy (just the opposite). When you see the new retina iMac next to a non-retina iMac you can see they are the same screen "resolution" - so no shrinkage there! 

So far I've found the retina to be easier on my aging eyes, so I count that as a plus for me. 

In the end you'll want to try to see them in person to help make a final decision IMO - hope your back behaves itself long enough for you to do so.

Happy shopping!

I think I am going to go for the mac and just get the 2.8ghz option, 16gb ram if possible and the 1TB flash  - it's a shame they don't allow for 32gb ram though.

Macrumors say it's the right time to buy the macbook cause it is just updated, but afaik all they did was change the graphics and are using the same cpu architecture, which is why i was hoping to wait for one more revision which should include the latest intel cpu architecture.

Thanks for the help Giles.. the beauty is with apple i can send it back anytime with in the first two weeks for a refund, if i am unable to make it out to a store (plus i would want them to specifically install reason on it so i could see that I can't see a store doing that for me).

But good to know about the retina being clear too. I did read that if it has a setting to put it at what the previous 15" were which is 1440x900 and it's clear.. I doubt i could see any reason buttons at the 2880x1800 LOL.

[Raveshaper]

Using Reason at full resolution on a 15" retina display is punishing. Everything becomes microscopic. The fuzziness issue is for software that is not compliant with high DPI settings which causes interfaces to stretch their pixels in an ugly way when scaled up.

Reason does not scale to higher resolution afaik, at least 7.1.2 doesn't. Everything gets super tiny.

[raymondh]

Hi Theo

I wonder if Propellerhead have a preference or recommendation? Given it's all about Reason, maybe you could fire them an email and ask if they have any recommendation for the specification that is most likely to be best supported. They may not want to nominate anything but you never know...

The other thing I'd look at is potentially upgrading your audio interface. As you know that can have a big impact not just on the audio quality but also latency performance.

You might find that your favored choice of audio interface has better support for Mac or Windows too, so that might help in your laptop decision process.

Good luck and have fun!

[Theo.M]

Using Reason at full resolution on a 15" retina display is punishing. Everything becomes microscopic. The fuzziness issue is for software that is not compliant with high DPI settings which causes interfaces to stretch their pixels in an ugly way when scaled up. Reason does not scale to higher resolution afaik, at least 7.1.2 doesn't. Everything gets super tiny.

right, i planned to use it at 1440x900 which is what i am on now. The retina native is basically exactly twice the res so i think it should downscale to the pre retina res ok?

I think it also might be acceptable at 1600x1080 or 1600x900 if they give that option.

[Theo.M]

Hi Theo

I wonder if Propellerhead have a preference or recommendation? Given it's all about Reason, maybe you could fire them an email and ask if they have any recommendation for the specification that is most likely to be best supported. They may not want to nominate anything but you never know...

The other thing I'd look at is potentially upgrading your audio interface. As you know that can have a big impact not just on the audio quality but also latency performance.

You might find that your favored choice of audio interface has better support for Mac or Windows too, so that might help in your laptop decision process.

Good luck and have fun!

actually the driver of the mbox 3 is one of the best in the business for latency and performance with regards to USB interfaces. I know this from studying various pro daw builder designed charts and owning about 11 interfaces myself over the years.

Right now i am using the on board sound which is pcie based anyway.. The performance is as good as it can get.. I am more than happy with the latency. I also have a motu ultralite firewire and it has THE best low latency drivers of any external interface i have ever used, but the new macbook won't have enough juice to bus power it via TB to FW adapter. The motu driver is the same for all their interfaces and on mac is known to be one of the best drivers around. FWIW, i also used a metric halo uln2 expanded that a friend brought over as i wanted to hear the pres, and that one is known to have the lowest latency of all external interfaces (that aren't native thunderbolt, of which there aren't many yet, the fastest being the new apogee, way out of my $$$ range). MH are constantly praised for their drivers. It gave me the exact same RE count as my motu which was about 2% more than the Mbox (being usb2 therefore using some cpu overhead unlike firewire). The on board PCIE built in output gives the same RE count as the others at the same buffer.. the only difference being the others have slightly better latency.

[CharlyCharlzz]

I would say that a must have now is SDD because HDD at 5.400rpm is too slow and a 7.400rpm is too hungry in energy .
also I buyed a cool laptop last year but I did not get one with 3d tactile or one with 4k because it's useless these days , at the stores a 55 inchs Samsung with 4k , 3d and curved is only around 900 dollars and it's a smart tv so it's even more easy to use with a laptop .

[Theo.M]

I would say that a must have now is SDD because HDD at 5.400rpm is too slow and a 7.400rpm is too hungry in energy .
also I buyed a cool laptop last year but I did not get one with 3d tactile or one with 4k because it's useless these days , at the stores a 55 inchs Samsung with 4k , 3d and curved is only around 900 dollars and it's a smart tv so it's even more easy to use with a laptop .

absolutely agree re SSD.

On a black scorpio 7200 now and it just cant cope.. I don't know how those with 5400 can stand it! The good news is all macbook pros now come with on board flash (much faster than sata3/6 ssd) that can hit read speeds of just over 2000 mb/s LOL. Remember when we used to think 300 mb/s with ssd was amazing, then came sata 6 and SSD's hitting 550 and we thought wow, well the mac does 2000 LOL.

My thunderbolt SSD i already have do around 300 ish which is also fine

For recording audio however due to constant write/erase/write/read etc operations I still get told the reliable 7200 for that one purpose is the way to go. Not sure if modern ssd/flash is ok with lots of writes and rewrites. I am sure Normen can chime in there

Also, pretty much all windows laptops that are mid range or higher come with ssd too these days.

Unfortunately I also believe especially for music needs 4k screens are pointless.. they seem to be continuously trying to make things smaller on smaller screens, and for programs with lots of text info it just doesn't make sense... Heck.. I was surprised when they started doing 1900x1080 on 15". I couldn't see the small stuff in the daw at all.

But i guess they do it to watch HD itunes, etc. Where the resolution does look good.

We don't have a choice with mac.. apple is kind of like that.. they give the latest technology but don't allow the user to pick alternatives.. for example why not offer "standard screen" or "retina screen".? I would pick standard.

I remember when they used to offer a matte screen too in the 17"laptop.. that was the best.. perfect with 17" and 1900x1200.. was just right.. but they scrapped the matte screen and the 17".. You know, i had this for 4.5 years now and i STILL can't quite get used to the glossy screen.  At least with windows you do get build to order laptops where you can choose the exact screen resolution and whether glossy or not.

If it was an ideal world, I would choose 1600 x 900 on a 15" as i think that's *perfect* for icons/text/mixer - basically everything.

If the retina mac offers me that choice which i need to find out, like a downscale, i think it will suit me well.

The idea of windows is still not totally gone yet, I am still investigating. The windows machine would also be cheaper for the same power. But i can't see a way to get included 1TB of 2000 mb/s storage speed!

[CharlyCharlzz]

yes theo but lot's of high end mac are just dual core when it come to laptop , it's so cool when it replace your desktiop so me think quad core i7 and fast Ram and Hdd /sdd
you must think of all that ....
screw the screen and the drive space , get the specs upgrade the fancy things later , otherwise build it online and get exactly the thing you want IMO ,

[Theo.M]

yes theo but lot's of high end mac are just dual core when it come to laptop , it's so cool when it replace your desktiop so me think quad core i7 and fast Ram and Hdd /sdd
you must think of all that ....
screw the screen and the drive space , get the specs upgrade the fancy things later , otherwise build it online and get exactly the thing you want IMO ,

You confuse me now.. if i get the macbook pro 15" retina, they are *all* quad core Charly.. the one i would get is the 2.8 ghz i7 quad if i bought one now, which is haswell, or if i wait just a little while I might be able to get broadwell (die shrink = less noise and heat) - the thing is apple just updated the macbook pro 13" with broadwell dual core and also the retina macbook 15" but kept the same haswell, cause they couldn't wait anymore and intel was so behind on notebook quad broadwell chips.
They will be available in mass by the end of July, and the next big update after that is skylake end of year.  So many people think apple will do a "stealth" update around august, as broadwell only needs minor efi (bios) update to work on haswell board.. This is my dilemma.. if i wait 6 months I will for sure get the crazy new tiny and powerful skylake chips.. If i buy now they might put broadwell in in a few weeks in said stealth update and i will kick myself.
So what i might do is this.. Wait till end of august.. if no broadwell update, I will put the ssd from my now unused windows laptop in current macbook (sandisk 480gb), and upgrade to 16gb ram.. ram is worth nothing these days.. then i will just use what i have till the next major skylake revision which will be THE one to have. Simply because it's the first of the "next gen" and that's when to jump on if i expect to keep it another 4 years.
A new ssd and more ram woill at least give this system a bit more life. Half the time the problems occur cause i run out of ram and the hard drive is too slow for VM and then the cpu etc ramps up, as does heat and noise, and then throttling, and suddenly, my reason project that was working fine starts using twice the cpu LOL.. this is when i realised most of my problems were to cpu throttling as when the chip runs at full speed i can do most what I need. This is why i feel broadwell (and definitely skylake) and on board flash with no hot mechanical HDD will, on top of the speed bump i will be getting with a new cpu, make a big difference for me.

Of course, buying a desktop replacement windows 17" laptop with 4ghz chip will always smoke any macbook pro for RE count. But the noise.. there is no way to make a laptop housing a desktop chip quiet LOL... believe me... if i were to choose a mobile windows laptop, sure, it will be quiet and cheaper than the mac, but in that case I don't see the point as i would rather stick with what I know as the mac will be just as fast as any windows laptop using mobile chips.

You mention SSD.. I did say already that the Macbook retinas now have the fastest included drive on the planet.. did you not see me mention the 2000 mb/s read times? without getting a pci expander card there is no other way to have an ssd that fast.. also as said I will be using thunderbolt SSD's for the extra storage.. like I said your post confused me a bit! Sorry!

[CharlyCharlzz]

like I said your post confused me a bit! Sorry!

@Theo , what get you confused ? you sayed you may get it with these options but you asked for advises  or maybe it's me who got confused because I was thinking you had no mind set yet ?!?
I forgot Mac had such models maybe thats why I got confused  .
if the Retina you think of buying got the specs you want then get it because you can always resize the image , I use a 15 inch HD screen with the basic HD settings and I dont even reduce the image size so if you set reason on a retina @ 1920x1080 you still have a better image then i do on my regulare hd screen because of the callity of the screen itself .
they really nice screens , Mac is the best for designers since forever so I dont see why you scared of callity .
I know leasings are contracts for a few years but there are stores that rent them by months for like a 100 bucks , You could always check to rent a retina for a month just to make shure you like it and think of what you will add in yours to have a better experience .
 

[phasys]

I dunno Theo, but if you're so well informed, I wonder why you're asking for advice.

[mbfrancis]

Help.  Used to be a great thread in the PUF on this but, alas...

I'm running R7 on a 2011 consumer W7 laptop (can get specs tonight if necessary).  With REs, and with me getting more serious about mixing audio, my computer now barely makes it through sessions.  To track, I regularly print submixes/stems to be able to continue.  (If my system freezes while tracking audio, Reason crashes).  My current mix (50+ audio tracks, 1 BusComp, 1 Fet, 4 De-essers) does not run...I have to turn of the REs.  Workflow is awful.   So...I need a new computer.  Won't even think of upgrading to R8 for now.

I'd love recommendations for a new PC laptop.  I can spend up to $1300, although would prefer to spend way less if possible.  Would prefer a name brand I can get at Best Buy (have a $300 credit).  (I've heard a lot of great stuff about ASUS.)  Want to run Reason robustly as outlined above, but also rewire S1.  I don't really understand what RAM is ideal (more is better?)  Seems like I should ideally run files off a remote SSD drive, maybe?  Honestly I just want the thing to work well for the next 3-4 years.  What's annoying is friends are running PT rigs on 5-year old computers no sweat, but I load up a professional production, add a few plug-ins and the thing shuts down.  (Not fair, I know, my current PC is just a general consumer laptop, but still.)

Any help - particularly recommendations of specific models - is truly appreciated.  Thanks all!

[Hopefully this is appropriate to the general board...I'm trying to run Reason after all.  Feel free to move, though.]

[Theo.M]

I dunno Theo, but if you're so well informed, I wonder why you're asking for advice.

 
well the whole point was to hear from someone using a retina mac and how reason looked on it.. don't understand your post.. I may be well informed but I have not had hands on a retina mac in my lifetime.. or did you miss that part? I understand specs and benchmarks and theories but I wanted to hear from someone using a current, *not* 4.5 year old mac with reason and how it's performing with RE's.. I want to know if to expect a significant jump or if it's just theory in my head.. i don't see any answers like that so far..

And it begs the question.. if you have nothing useful to add, why are you even reading or posting in this topic? LOL.

I also don't see many using laptops as their main machine, and I suggested i was open to windows if someone could give me some info to how reason was working with it (specifically RE performance)..

Others came in and suggested about drives and stuff. I am not worried about all that and I tried to cover that early on about having ssd's already and knowing the mac will have ultra fast pcie flash.. My whole post was really about 2 things : How reason looks on a 4k screen scaled down, and how cpu performance of *current* laptop chips is, whether mac or win, with Reason and lots of RE's. How could i possibly be informed even mildly about that, other than speculation, when I haven't got or used in any way shape or form, a current machine?

I just presumed some here would have one, perhaps I was wrong. 

[Benedict]

Hi Mr Francis

Devil's advocate: do you really need a laptop as they are never as powerful? I have had a Dell XPS for many years now ans it has a been a dream - Best PC ever.

I think Dell laptops are ok but Toshiba are generally considered the most robust machines by IT types.

[mbfrancis]

Well, I like to move around from my den to the dining room (where the piano is) to my singer's house.  So the easier to move the better.   Maybe an All in One?

[Pepin]

I have NO experience with Retina macs, in fact i have never even seen the screen of one up close in person, ever (no joke).
Since they are the only macbook pros around now, i need to know, hows does reason work in these? They are 2880 x 1800 or something like that, how on earth would I be able to see any buttons and text in Reason? Or does it scale back? Does it look ok scaled?

I'm running a mid-2012 retina MacBook Pro. Reason only supports the retina display for text in the sequencer, browser, etc. (not synths). Everything else looks just as it does on a non-retina machine (at 1440 x 900 / 2880 x 1800 each non-retina pixel uses four retina pixels). And retina-enabled text isn't smaller btw. It's just smoother.

The only negatives are that scrolling is choppy on a retina display, and overall graphical performance suffers a bit. But it's entirely usable, and this issue can be fixed completely by disabling retina support for the app:
 

Basically, you have to choose whether you want retina text or better graphical performance (I chose the latter). I suspect future versions of Reason might take further advantage of the retina display, but Reason currently runs just as well as on non-retina machines.

[Lunesis]

[Hopefully this is appropriate to the general board...I'm trying to run Reason after all.  Feel free to move, though.]

It's fine, since it has to do with what will run Reason optimally. Theo made a recent post about getting a new laptop in the HW/SW forum but I think both spots are fair game when it comes to getting computer advice for running Reason. I don't want to be a stickler and sometimes it is hard to know where to draw the line. When I think of hardware, I think of synths, controllers and instruments.

In fact, I think I will give into my OCD and just merge the threads here.

[Theo.M]

I have NO experience with Retina macs, in fact i have never even seen the screen of one up close in person, ever (no joke).
Since they are the only macbook pros around now, i need to know, hows does reason work in these? They are 2880 x 1800 or something like that, how on earth would I be able to see any buttons and text in Reason? Or does it scale back? Does it look ok scaled?

I'm running a mid-2012 retina MacBook Pro. Reason only supports the retina display for text in the sequencer, browser, etc. (not synths). Everything else looks just as it does on a non-retina machine (at 1440 x 900 / 2880 x 1800 each non-retina pixel uses four retina pixels). And retina-enabled text isn't smaller btw. It's just smoother.

The only negatives are that scrolling is choppy on a retina display, and overall graphical performance suffers a bit. But it's entirely usable, and this issue can be fixed completely by disabling retina support for the app:

 

Basically, you have to choose whether you want retina text or better graphical performance (I chose the latter). I suspect future versions of Reason might take further advantage of the retina display, but Reason currently runs just as well as on non-retina machines.

BRILLIANT! Thank you Pepin!
 May I ask, can i choose different forced resolution other than 1440x900 other than full retina?

Also, what cpu speed, and how do you find performance? Yours was the next architecture after mine, so I'd be curious to know even with one "generation" gap if it made a big difference