Stereo Panning in Reason

[dioxide]

When you have a stereo mix channel in the SSL mixer, the pan pot acts as a balance control, so for example if you pan hard left you lose the R channel completely.

Selig Gain has dual L/R pan controls allowing for better control of stereo panning. Are there any other techniques or REs in Reason that are good for panning stereo signals?

[dioxide]

Uhe's Uhbik T tremolo seems to do a good job as an autopanner. It gives control over attenuation, LFO shape and has a Haas effect dial.

[pushedbutton]

Just create mono parallel channels, about 4 to 8 should do it, throw them in a bus then get tweaky with it.

[normen]

If you put the width all the way down and then pan hard you should get the same result as when panning two separate channels for L/R to the same side. Given the existence of the width knob to me Reason is one of the more flexible DAWs in terms of panning - except for the lack of a pan law setting.

[pushedbutton]

[dioxide]

If you put the width all the way down and then pan hard you should get the same result as when panning two separate channels for L/R to the same side. Given the existence of the width knob to me Reason is one of the more flexible DAWs in terms of panning - except for the lack of a pan law setting.

Thanks, I rarely use the width knob. I tried this against Selig Gain LR panning and both can be similar. However the Gain LR panning is less prone to drop outs – try panning both methods hard right for example. Selig Gain maintains a constant level whereas the SSL Pan can 'clip' if the pan pot is extreme left or right.

I can see the advantage of both methods. The SSL allows automation of width and the centre point separately but Selig Gain allows you to automate the L and R panning limits individually. In many cases they will produce similar results.

[dioxide]

Interesting technique! Very wide sounding although I think I just need something simpler! Sounds very modern though

[selig]

If you put the width all the way down and then pan hard you should get the same result as when panning two separate channels for L/R to the same side. Given the existence of the width knob to me Reason is one of the more flexible DAWs in terms of panning - except for the lack of a pan law setting.

BUT, it's not a panner, it's more of a balance control. IF you DON'T put the width all the way down, panning left removes the right signal entirely, and vice versa. I'd call that a balance control before I'd call it a panner…

[EDIT: I've mentioned previously that I would have preferred the pan (when width is at full) to work more like two pan controls rather than a balance control…not sure why it doesn't work that way. ]

[selig]

If you put the width all the way down and then pan hard you should get the same result as when panning two separate channels for L/R to the same side. Given the existence of the width knob to me Reason is one of the more flexible DAWs in terms of panning - except for the lack of a pan law setting.

Thanks, I rarely use the width knob. I tried this against Selig Gain LR panning and both can be similar. However the Gain LR panning is less prone to drop outs – try panning both methods hard right for example. Selig Gain maintains a constant level whereas the SSL Pan can 'clip' if the pan pot is extreme left or right.

I can see the advantage of both methods. The SSL allows automation of width and the centre point separately but Selig Gain allows you to automate the L and R panning limits individually. In many cases they will produce similar results.

The difference has to do with the pan law Reason uses rather than the width control - the pan law is "+3 dB sides" meaning that 3 dB is ADDED when you pan to one side. With a mono signal at 0 dB, you will clip by 3 dB when panning to one side.

Most mixer use a "minus" pan law rather than a "plus" pan law to avoid this issue…

[dioxide]

The difference has to do with the pan law Reason uses rather than the width control - the pan law is "+3 dB sides" meaning that 3 dB is ADDED when you pan to one side. With a mono signal at 0 dB, you will clip by 3 dB when panning to one side.

Most mixer use a "minus" pan law rather than a "plus" pan law to avoid this issue…

Thanks, that is interesting to know.

[normen]

BUT, it's not a panner, it's more of a balance control. IF you DON'T put the width all the way down, panning left removes the right signal entirely, and vice versa. I'd call that a balance control before I'd call it a panner…

[EDIT: I've mentioned previously that I would have preferred the pan (when width is at full) to work more like two pan controls rather than a balance control…not sure why it doesn't work that way. ]

Well that was what dioxide was observing/stating right in the first post, it IS a balance control when the input is stereo, nobody denied that. I just gave an example on how you can avoid removing the signal of one side when you turn the (in that case) balance knob.

[selig]

BUT, it's not a panner, it's more of a balance control. IF you DON'T put the width all the way down, panning left removes the right signal entirely, and vice versa. I'd call that a balance control before I'd call it a panner…

[EDIT: I've mentioned previously that I would have preferred the pan (when width is at full) to work more like two pan controls rather than a balance control…not sure why it doesn't work that way. ]

Well that was what dioxide was observing/stating right in the first post, it IS a balance control when the input is stereo, nobody denied that. I just gave an example on how you can avoid removing the signal of one side when you turn the (in that case) balance knob.

I understand now, and that's a decent workaround for the problems presented by this approach, though it's still not possible to achieve any "in-between" settings - you either go full mono and pan, or full stereo - or you loose part of your signal. Seems like unnecessary restrictions with their choices where there didn't need to be any.

[Last Alternative]

I'm confused. Is Reason's panning not really panning? Is Selig Gain and any other DAW or device with 2 pan knobs per channel real panning? What's the difference between 1 side-to-side balance control and 2 knob panning?

[dioxide]

I'm confused. Is Reason's panning not really panning? Is Selig Gain and any other DAW or device with 2 pan knobs per channel real panning? What's the difference between side-to-side balance control and true panning?

Try creating something with hard L-R panning, either using Redrum or similar. Now use the SSL pan pot to pan hard L. The R signal is gone. Now try some experiments with Selig Gain and the SSL Width knob.

[Last Alternative]

Sure I could mess around but that doesn't explain much on panning theory. Would anyone care to lay it all out?
[PLEASE SEE MY PREVIOUS COMMENT]

[normen]

I'm confused. Is Reason's panning not really panning? Is Selig Gain and any other DAW or device with 2 pan knobs per channel real panning? What's the difference between 1 side-to-side balance control and 2 knob panning?

When fed a mono signal its a pan knob, when fed a stereo signal its a balance knob. Thats the technically correct terms so you can also look elsewhere for more explanations.

In short, a pan knob divides the (single/mono) signal to the left and right channels. In the mid position its the same volume on both channels, in the far left position its solely coming from the left channel, in between settings gradually put the signal on both channels.

A balance knob already has a stereo signal coming in and turning it to the left leaves the left channel alone and turns the right channel down, conversely turning it right keeps the right channel intact and turns the left channel down. This means that a signal that is on the left channel coming in to the channel strip will be completely turned off when you turn the balance knob full right.

[selig]

FWIW, the other pan controls in Reason have always worked this way and it's always bugged me.

What I EXPECTED was that when you panned hard left or hard right, the signal automatically collapsed to mono. What I found and Norman has been confirming is that you have to do this part manually. I can see no advantage to this approach, and it COULD have been done far more elegantly IMO (meaning, no balance control, just panning).

What I have found in experiments is that it is tricky to replicated common dual-pan configurations with ease.

[Last Alternative]

So to have true stereo panning does Reason need dual pan knobs? Or otherwise for now Selig Gain is the only reliable one?
Most of my channels are mono anyway and if I'm putting a stereo channel hard right or left I just pull all the right cables first. To me panning in stereo (not hard r/l) with the width knob 100% sounds weird. I prefer Reason to have dual as a built in feature but that probably won't happen until R20.

[ravisoni]

I really thought panning was as simple as move knob left, hear more volume out of left and less out of right and vice versa. And then there's this.
http://logic-pro-expert.com/logic-pro-b ... uraJn9-yrU

So much to learn, this is exciting.

[ravisoni]

So just to get this right, if a stereo input (of a piano) is fed into a channel, say low notes playing in the left channel and high in the right, and if I turn the pan knob to the left, the high notes channel's volume will gradually decrease leaving me with only the low notes coming out of the left channel.
Which, I think, is the balance control that's being talked about. So natively, in reason's SSL, there's no way to take have some of the right channel's sound move/distribute to the left when you turn the knob to the left?

Edit: Nvm. The width knob.

[normen]

Edit: Nvm. The width knob.

Yeah but as Giles pointed out that doesn't allow you to distribute it properly as you could with two pan knobs. I mean I guess you could achieve a similar thing somehow but how to set the relation between width and balance is kind of undefined...

[ravisoni]

Edit: Nvm. The width knob.

Yeah but as Giles pointed out that doesn't allow you to distribute it properly as you could with two pan knobs. I mean I guess you could achieve a similar thing somehow but how to set the relation between width and balance is kind of undefined...

Reading the whole thread again makes much more sense now.
I was having trouble thinking about the use case for keeping things stereo instead of just summing to full mono (as in why would you need something in-between), but I can see plenty of reasons why. Damn, this has been an awesome learning experience. Thanks everybody! Would've never understood (or even tried to understand) panning this way.
Just a final quick Q: Why are the pan knobs on Selig Gain hard left and hard right? Couldn't they have been in a center position as default (thus implying the right field could go further right)?

[ScuzzyEye]

Just a final quick Q: Why are the pan knobs on Selig Gain hard left and hard right? Couldn't they have been in a center position as default (thus implying the right field could go further right)?

They're sending the left input to the left output, and the right input to the right output.

Dual pan knobs allow one more trick that the pan+width doesn't. You can cross-pan, to invert the stereo image. You can pan the left to the right, and the right to the left.

[Last Alternative]

Truth be told, Propellerhead is still somewhat new to audio, thus, they are slightly ignorant to what we really need and how to do it, unlike pretty much every other DAW out there. And I don't mean that in a cruel way. If I'm wrong then they are just trying to be so different from everything that they aren't doing it right. And when I say right I mean standard user-friendly features for recording/mixing/mastering audio. Seriously.. Why no cross-fades? Punch-in? Advanced audio clip volume editing? The list goes on and we discuss it to death. The ball is in their court and sad to say but there's not much hope when they don't even take advice from the esteemed Selig!

[pothole]

ableton live has exactly the same issue

https://www.ableton.com/answers/panning ... ity-plugin


--------------

chains or max live devices to the rescue

http://www.maxforlive.com/library/devic ... stereo-pan