Chorus / Flanger

[Creativemind]

Hi All!

Just wondering if anyone could explain why the chorus / flanger are tied together as one device in Reason? Why aren't these devices separate? are these 2 effects connected in some way?

Reading the manual (I'm thinking kind of but not really?). it says in the manual (Reason 10 Documentation - P1157), you only get the chorus effect when using the device as a send effect and Send Mode is activated. If Send Mode is activated and it's added as an insert effect then you will get a vibrato effect.

Anyway, just wanted to clarify.
Thanks!

[Ahornberg]

a chorus needs at least 2 nearly identical signals that are a bit detuned to each other
a vibrato is nothing more than periodically detuning a signal
in send mode you get the dry and the wet signal, that are 2 signals that build up the chorus effect
in insert mode you only get the wet signal

[Gorgon]

Good! You're reading the manual!

[selig]

a chorus needs at least 2 nearly identical signals that are a bit detuned to each other
a vibrato is nothing more than periodically detuning a signal
in send mode you get the dry and the wet signal, that are 2 signals that build up the chorus effect
in insert mode you only get the wet signal

I think you got it backwards - in send mode you get only the wet signal, because the dry signal comes from the main channel. In insert mode you get the dry + wet signal because otherwise it wouldn't work in the rack or in the mixer inserts because as you noted you need two signals (one detuned from the other).

One cool way to get an old school stereo effect (ala the original Boss CE-1, which I still love) is to start with a mono track, create a parallel track and put the CF-101 on the parallel track in send mode. Then pan the original and the parallel channel to opposite sides of the mix, and you get a nice stereo effect that won't cancel in mono.

[Soft Enerji]

Good! You're reading the manual!

And the need for that was...................?

[Soft Enerji]

One cool way to get an old school stereo effect (ala the original Boss CE-1, which I still love) is to start with a mono track, create a parallel track and put the CF-101 on the parallel track in send mode. Then pan the original and the parallel channel to opposite sides of the mix, and you get a nice stereo effect that won't cancel in mono.

Nice

[Gorgon]

Good! You're reading the manual!

And the need for that was...................?

And the need for this was..............?

[Soft Enerji]

And the need for that was...................?

And the need for this was..............?

What do you think?

[Gorgon]

And the need for this was..............?

What do you think?

No idea, but apparently it wasn't that important.

[Soft Enerji]

What do you think?

No idea, but apparently it wasn't that important.

[LudvigC]

Hi All!

Just wondering if anyone could explain why the chorus / flanger are tied together as one device in Reason? Why aren't these devices separate? are these 2 effects connected in some way?

Because Flanger = Chorus + lots of Feedback.

(And Chorus = dry signal + signal where the pitch shifts periodically, by means of modulated delay times).

At least that's one of the traditional ways of doing these effects.

/ LudvigC

[Marco Raaphorst]

The one thing I don't like about the chorus/flanger is the zero crossing. That's the moment the effect is neutral and that moment is way too long. So when the chorus is sweeping there's this neutral moment which sounds bad. That's a flaw imo with the chorus/flanger.

[selig]

The one thing I don't like about the chorus/flanger is the zero crossing. That's the moment the effect is neutral and that moment is way too long. So when the chorus is sweeping there's this neutral moment which sounds bad. That's a flaw imo with the chorus/flanger.

Technically speaking, it's not crossing zero because there is no overall delay on the audio signal that would allow this effect. What you're hearing is a mis-setting of the Delay vs Mod Amount control, otherwise known as modulation clipping (from the modular analog synth world).

Same can be heard in a filter sweep if you exceed the max frequency of a low pass filter - it will appear to "hold" open at the top of the sweep because the range of the modulation exceeds the range of the destination.

This can easily be "fixed" with the CF-101 by either reducing/increasing the delay time or reducing the mod amount until you no longer hear this issue.

Also, historically I've always heard the difference between chorus and flanger was the delay range used. Flangers use from 0-10ms delay (to mimic the original effect created at Abbey Road), and chorus from 10-30 ms (typically in the 20 ms range), to mimic stacking an instrument/vocal (hence the name "chorus").

With the CF-101, a delay setting of zero is well under 1 ms, a setting of 64 (50%) is around 10 ms and a setting of 127 (max) is 20 ms.

Also note that the original signal is polarity inverted as it goes through the CF-101, and this is one reason you must use "Send Mode" if using this device on a parallel channel or send/return setup. One tip for getting different sounds out of this thing is to use it in send mode on a Mix Channel (instead of a "return"), use a Send to feed it, and invert the polarity of the Mix Channel used as the "return". You'll get a slightly different tone as different frequencies cancel when inverted vs when not.

It's also cool to use Pulsar (or Thor) to drive the delay to get a wider variety of effects. Plus you can drive the total delay time above the front panel settings using a fixed CV value (from Thor or Selig Gain) up to around 100 ms max (5x the front panel value)!

There is still lots of fun stuff to be discovered with even the oldest Reason devices IMO.

[Djstarski]

whilst we are on this subject , if someone can breakdown what a phaser effect is ?

[esselfortium]

Another thing the CF-101 is useful for: you can use it in send mode with no feedback as a very short delay that you can modulate (much more precisely than the DDL-1's millisecond increments) for tape-flutter pitch-drift effects.

[Marco Raaphorst]

The one thing I don't like about the chorus/flanger is the zero crossing. That's the moment the effect is neutral and that moment is way too long. So when the chorus is sweeping there's this neutral moment which sounds bad. That's a flaw imo with the chorus/flanger.

Technically speaking, it's not crossing zero because there is no overall delay on the audio signal that would allow this effect. What you're hearing is a mis-setting of the Delay vs Mod Amount control, otherwise known as modulation clipping (from the modular analog synth world).

Same can be heard in a filter sweep if you exceed the max frequency of a low pass filter - it will appear to "hold" open at the top of the sweep because the range of the modulation exceeds the range of the destination.

This can easily be "fixed" with the CF-101 by either reducing/increasing the delay time or reducing the mod amount until you no longer hear this issue.

Makes perfect sense, thanks!

[selig]

whilst we are on this subject , if someone can breakdown what a phaser effect is ?

The difference has more to do with how the effect is created than how it sounds, as they can sound similar in many ways in that both effects create peaks and troughs in the frequency response.

Flanging/chorusing does this with simple delay lines (or tape delay). Phasing uses all-pass filters to create the frequency response non-linearity. In both cases the original signal is mixed with the processed signal to actually create the final result.

An all-pass filter shifts the phase of some frequencies (the frequency of interest behind the most shifted) more than others, which when combined with the original signal will create cancellation at certain frequencies and reinforcement at others.

While using a short delay creates a series of peaks/troughs (a "comb" filter response), an all pass filter creates only one peak or trough. So a phaser needs multiple "stages" (all pass filters) to create the desired end result. And while a flanger has harmonically spaced peaks/troughs, a phaser can use any spacing depending on the tuning of each all pass filter in the "network".

You can also create a similar effect with a series of notch filters (or band pass filters), which allow more creative control over the effect. Maybe I can come up with a demo of this shortly…

[selig]

Another thing the CF-101 is useful for: you can use it in send mode with no feedback as a very short delay that you can modulate (much more precisely than the DDL-1's millisecond increments) for tape-flutter pitch-drift effects.

This is a perfect use for Pulsar as the LFO to drive the delay (instead of the internal LFO), because you can add a smoothed random element to the sweep by using both LFO1 and LFO2 in Pulsar.

[househoppin09]

This is turning into an incredibly informative thread! Thanks to selig and everyone else for these invaluable tips.