Reason updates (11.3.7 / 11.3.8) and Reason+

[diminished]

In the stream at 54:53 and 57:47 respectively sound packs list two devices I'm not aware of:
- LM6
- ECF42

Any guesses whatare those?

I'm gonna go with 6 band limiter a la OTT/Cubase's Squasher and Envelope-controlled filter with up to 42dB/oct

[DecafDreams]

I think this is the issue. We aren't just soulless users of an application like Microsoft Excel that's turning into Office 365.

This is an application that many of us actually have a profound love for and to see it commoditised like this, and our investment in it being used to turn us into the product - that is something that is actually quite painful. Especially given most of us, being artists, probably aren't the biggest fans of unbridled capitalism...

It's sad, isn't it? I think companies like Image-Line, Ableton and Bandcamp are good examples of companies run by people who have dedicated their life to music and know its users. It's odd for such a niche product as Reason to be run by people with no insight or heart for it.

The thing is they could have launched the subscription model in a much better fashion. Made it a clear 50/50 option on their home page, made it crystal clear it was just another way of using Reason and not their main focus, perhaps even had a sense of humour about how not everyone loves subscriptions (like the Propellerhead of old would have) and mainly they should have offered a freemium model so that anyone could jump on board and start making music with a limited tool set. They failed in all of these regards and basically looked like they were completely tone deaf to their user base. Either that or they were simply happy to appear to be riding roughshod over what the fans and community have been very vocal about; in all likelihood to probably appease their financial overlords.

[antic604]

And two, come on. It's actually not that much money in the scheme of things. I mean, Tinder costs about the same at least where I live, and quite frankly I've got more dates from the music I make with Reason than I have with that bullshit.

That's the spirit!

[DecafDreams]

In the stream at 54:53 and 57:47 respectively sound packs list two devices I'm not aware of:
- LM6
- ECF42

Any guesses whatare those?

I'm gonna go with 6 band limiter a la OTT/Cubase's Squasher and Envelope-controlled filter with up to 42dB/oct

ECF-42 is the old Reason half-rack filter. LM6 sounds new though.

[antic604]

ECF-42 is the old Reason half-rack filter. LM6 sounds new though.

No, it's Line Mixer 6:2

[hfw]

The seed for this whole mess was planted in a point update, as a marketing plan. isnt that some fall from grace? To see now in hindsight how short sighted the team was. planning this out like wed see the companion and all sit with big kiddie eyes as they make their live stream announcement with cool mobile phone ceo guy. i find it amazing.

[OverneathTheSkyBridg]

The seed for this whole mess was planted in a point update, as a marketing plan. isnt that some fall from grace? To see now in hindsight how short sighted the team was. planning this out like wed see the companion and all sit with big kiddie eyes as they make their live stream announcement with cool mobile phone ceo guy. i find it amazing.

Yep, I'm glad I held off on the update so I won't have the extra bloat. R12 better be a banger.

[Auryn]

I said it wasn't the first motivator. It was obviously a motivator, but the idea that Reason Studios exists only to make money is really dismissive of the meaning of music.

I never said ONLY TO MAKE MONEY. It would be to make money by developing and marketing software products for music makers.

Every company has to have solvency as a primary goal. Without income to pay staff, you have no company, which means no Reason. No income means no Korg M1, no Ableton Live, no TR-808, and no Moog synthesizer. No guitars, no pianos, and no flutes. Nobody would make your instruments if they couldn't afford to build them.

There will always be the odd hobbyist out there making things for free, and if you want you can go and take your pick of home-made guitars on Etsy that go out of tune when the seasons change, free Open Source DAWs and plugins, and creative commons sample packs.

And yet here we are, all taking the corporate offering from Reason Studios because like it or not, corporations maintaining solvency and seeking profit have afforded us the convenience and affordability that allows us to make music in our bedrooms for $100/yr using a suite of tools that would have cost you more than a 3-5 times your annual salary pre-tax and required veteran engineers, bands and highly skilled session musicians that you can now match with a single NN19 patch and a dusty REX loop.

No you never said that, I was originally responding to @Miscend who said "businesses exist solely to make money" and then you interjected that what I was saying was ridiculous. I think most musical instrument/software companies came into existence because of a love of music primarily and that the profit motive is latched onto that as a product/instrument is developed. If 'seeking profit' is the only thing that matters in the end, then RS should just invest in real estate or crypto's or something.
Obviously Reason Studios need to make some money, but they should do so by improving the core product. If this type of craven marketing bullshit is the only way they can stay afloat then perhaps they deserve to sink.

[diminished]

ECF-42 is the old Reason half-rack filter. LM6 sounds new though.

No, it's Line Mixer 6:2

Oh wow that's sad haha

Sorry haven't read back the thread completely, it's just too much

[froggo_gfx]

I find it rather funny that RS staff disappeared from the forum after one day of reiterating a couple of marketing slogans.
Shows their attitude towards criticism.

[diminished]

I really hope there are a few people from staff approaching Niklas and the Vultures right now and telling them something like "see, we f*cking told you"

[DecafDreams]

The seed for this whole mess was planted in a point update, as a marketing plan. isnt that some fall from grace? To see now in hindsight how short sighted the team was. planning this out like wed see the companion and all sit with big kiddie eyes as they make their live stream announcement with cool mobile phone ceo guy. i find it amazing.

What a phenomenal post. I never thought about it like that. I guess because we all loved the 'untitled folder' hi-res GUI preview easter egg in the 20 years goodies file they thought we'd go crazy for this. Just shows how little they actually listen if that's the case, as a subscription service is probably the one thing the community has been saying they don't want for the longest time. Maybe there's been a struggle within the company and there'll be some real vindication on the side of those who were vocal against this, but got told to shut up and drink the Kool-Aid by management...

[Noise]

Finally made some friend jump on Reason Intro a few weeks ago... Now I had to give him the horrible news that Reason Intro is no longer available.
Showed him the "subscription" page, the said "wtf is that, 20€ for rental ?". Anyways, good news, jjrshop was still open for business.
Now he can use reason intro to record his guitar and it's done.

[antic604]

I find it rather funny that RS staff disappeared from the forum after one day of reiterating a couple of marketing slogans.
Shows their attitude towards criticism.

Would you really want to discuss with people that are angry about something that doesn't affect them, something they've misunderstood or something they purposefuly lie about?

It's actually pretty smart to wait it out and let the dust settle.

[aftrshok99]

It's actually not that much money in the scheme of things.


but give the Reason guys a break.

1. it's not about the money. it's catered to either new 'try it' users and those who have enough money to not care about the subscriptions costs anyway

it's the second part that's important.

2. they didn't deserve their break. It's time they were planted face-forward into the steaming pile of failure they produced. It's now become crystal clear that they don't respect their core user or their requests, referring to them as "the internet' or 'forum creatures that are always unhappy whatever we give them' during meetings, I bet.

It's like you're at the table with someone and you ask them to pass the salt. They give you pepper, bread, extra sauce and after another 3 years of asking for salt, they pass you a steak, even though you're vegetarian. You then proceed to ask them if they are hard of hearing or have a mental deficiency, to which they respond - 'of course not, you wanted the salt - correct? we hear you loud an clear! We're about to give it to you!". So your meal is completely stale at this point, you've lost appetite and are thinking about the money and time you've thrown away on this meal, but STILL NO SALT. So you are about to take up and leave when that person suddenly shouts: "hold on, don't go (and why are you so angry?) ! Here it is - what you asked and what you wanted!!!" - and they pass you a spare spoon. Naturally, you tell them to go f themselves, so they stand up and say:

"You are so negative, we just can't win with you, we tried so hard but anything we do is just not enough for you! I guess we can't win with everybody!"


RS, if you're reading - you've dropped the ball on this one, sincerely. Should've just passed the salt.

I don't disagree with first part but the second part not so much. The problem is we really don't know how big their core user base is. The core user base could only be 5% of their users and yes those users are very vocal about the changes that need to be made, I'm one of those that has wanted workflow improvements forever but I am not vocal about it (nothing wrong with that). With that said, they probably have data showing that the other % of user base wants something else. We all want Reason to be great because it's what we love and have loved for 20 years.

As far as paying $20 a month and spending more in a year on subscription versus outright one time payment for an upgrade. That's a personal choice and is up to the individual to decide how to spend their money. We don't know everyone's financial situation and what they can afford and not afford so we can't just say someone is stupid for wanting to pay by the way of subscription (not saying you said that, just seen in mentioned other places).

[froggo_gfx]

I find it rather funny that RS staff disappeared from the forum after one day of reiterating a couple of marketing slogans.
Shows their attitude towards criticism.

Would you really want to discuss with people that are angry about something that doesn't affect them, something they've misunderstood or something they purposefuly lie about?

It's actually pretty smart to wait it out and let the dust settle.

People are angry because they feel (and tbh ARE) neglected. Yesterday’s fiasco is not a singular event but rather logical result of very WEIRD RS’s policy regarding public relations.
It’s not that hard to acknowledge that you’re being criticised and show that you understand WHAT you’re being criticised FOR. They preferred to remain mostly silent for a bit too long and now they continue down that path and you see that as a smart move because..?

[MFW]

It's $20/mo you can cancel at any time vs $400 upfront.

$400 hasn't been much of a barrier to people buying Reason so far. We've all paid it.

The people who are pissed off seem to mostly be pissed off by the presumptuous speculation that they are definitely going to stop full purchases with misconceptions on how Reason Studio's introduction subscription relates to Adobe's (who serves a very different type of customer).

Presumptuous maybe, but keeping the licence version alongside gives the feeble-minded an escape route from a $240 a year vapourware subscription.
Do you honestly think RS will leave that door open?

[EdwardKiy]

I don't disagree with first part but the second part not so much. The problem is we really don't know how big their core user base is. The core user base could only be 5% of their users and yes those users are very vocal about the changes that need to be made, I'm one of those that has wanted workflow improvements forever but I am not vocal about it (nothing wrong with that). With that said, they probably have data showing that the other % of user base wants something else. We all want Reason to be great because it's what we love and have loved for 20 years.

Their yt video has 271 likes and 1100++ dislikes, which is in perfect harmony with what's going on in the forum, so I'm guessing whatever OTHER data they had was wrong.

And what OTHER data can they have? And where would they get it if their 'core user base' is the only group being vocal about their wants? But they've decided to just ignore this and instead of catering to the (small?) group that DID voice their wants and take a stab in the dark at the "potential new users", which turned out to be a spectacular miss that also served to alienate the core group. The end.

[Shadoww]

The most appalling thing about the livestream for me was when the host said ‘guys, let’s all think of Reason+ as if we are all joining a UNION’ ...if it was a Union I’d be calling for the management to step down or voting for industrial action

[MFW]

Finally made some friend jump on Reason Intro a few weeks ago... Now I had to give him the horrible news that Reason Intro is no longer available.
Showed him the "subscription" page, the said "wtf is that, 20€ for rental ?". Anyways, good news, jjrshop was still open for business.
Now he can use reason intro to record his guitar and it's done.

Back in September a newb came on here asking to buy a copy of Intro. I gave him mine for free (no use to me anyway) and he was astonished.
I'd be feeling really sodding guilty right now if I'd taken any money off him for it.

[Auryn]

I agree they wanted to make something awesome. But to do that as a business entity you need to be profitable, as businesses exist to make profit. There are other types of corporate forms (such as charities) for organizations that exist for other purposes. Reason studios being profitable as a business while also being honest and ethical does not demean the meaning of music.

No but saying that a musical company that started out as an idea on how to bring music studios into the digital realm now exists only to make money seems reductionist and cynical. I also do not consider the kind of marketing that was on display yesterday as 'ethical'. (I consider most marketing unethical so take that as you will)

The way capitalist society works, is that when you spend the time doing something and its really awesome, you get rewarded financially for your efforts.

Re: Capitalism 101 : ideally this would be true but the reality is far different. Most of the "making something awesome" has been replaced by unethical and highly intrusive marketing practices that prey on people's vulnerabilities and sense of inadequacy in order to sell them mediocre stuff they don't need. Supply far outstrips demand so companies have to resort to manipulation and blatant lying in order to sell their shit. It's toxic and should be spoken out against. Anyway, we're veering into politics and I don't want to get banned so let's just leave it there.

[DecafDreams]

Just like every other product/service I use these days, I get the feeling I'm being gaslighted by the marketing department. We all know that software as a service is a bad deal for digital customers yet we're always told about how beneficial it is for us, the little people. At the same time, we have to agree to a contract that sees us become utterly dependent on the vendor, unable to use the service without being on their servers, and simultaneously we have to allow them to monitor all our interactions to be mined for even further data grabbing by the company. We're all just ones and zeroes to them. "the internet".

[colonel_mustard]

It's not a huge surprise, is it? The first sign of trouble that I noticed was the Verdane takeover:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7499884

Then the CEO was replaced:
https://www.musicradar.com/news/ernst-n ... -developer

All of this with 'optimistic' press releases of course.

Reason is an investment for a group of people who want to get rich(er), and grow the brand as big as they can. That's the reality that we're in. But it's also a passion project for a team of brilliant sonic enthusiasts, who want to make the very best thing that they can imagine. You might say it's a negotiation between the two.

There seems to be a lot of black and white thinking here, but pretty much every modern company is like this. It's the nature of capitalism. Gotta take the rough with the smooth.

In all of the hubbub yesterday, I was worried that we wouldn't be getting UX improvements outside of Reason+, but that's been cleared up. We will if we pay for the next major release, and so I'll buy at least one more version update - to have all of my devices/REs/presets in a hi res, endlessly-customisable rack plug-in/Lego set - but I'm likely to invest more time in Bitwig as an environment, I think, going forward.

We'll see how it goes. I do love Reason.

Anyway, I'll continue to roll my eyes at press releases, resent all forms of marketing and advertising, be impressed with the wonderful things that people are making and realising, and continue to buy the updates and REs that I want to use.

Be outraged if it helps, but don't be unkind.

[antic604]

...and you see that as a smart move because..?

Because right now people simply refuse to listen and won't accept any explanation or justification

I read the announcements and watched the stream very carefuly. I think they're being sincere in that they want Reason+ to facilitate easier access to Reason for new users and also force/encourage themselves to develop & expand it going forward: both the DAW and REs, for both new people and those that decide to stay with perpetual licensing model. The only group of people that actually, tangibly lost something with the Reason+ announcement is those with 11 Lite/Intro who never planned on buying higher versions. Everyone else is getting worked up because of some imaginary story, where they expected to get 12 for free, or get another Suite version with new REs included because they need to feel superior, or who are afraid of some wild scenario because they are unable to comprehend 2 pages of simple text...

[aftrshok99]

I don't disagree with first part but the second part not so much. The problem is we really don't know how big their core user base is. The core user base could only be 5% of their users and yes those users are very vocal about the changes that need to be made, I'm one of those that has wanted workflow improvements forever but I am not vocal about it (nothing wrong with that). With that said, they probably have data showing that the other % of user base wants something else. We all want Reason to be great because it's what we love and have loved for 20 years.

Their yt video has 271 likes and 1100++ dislikes, which is in perfect harmony with what's going on in the forum, so I'm guessing whatever OTHER data they had was wrong.

And what OTHER data can they have? And where would they get it if their 'core user base' is the only group being vocal about their wants? But they've decided to just ignore this and instead of catering to the (small?) group that DID voice their wants and take a stab in the dark at the "potential new users", which turned out to be a spectacular miss that also served to alienate the core group. The end.

Just like the livestream video had 11,091 views with 438 likes and 793 dislikes. I'm not trying to argue one way or the other, just trying to understand something that we don't have all the data too. RS clearly has that data and have chose to go the + route for a reason....wright or wrong, that's on them and what make sense to them financially.

As I said, I know this forum is full of passionate Reason users and we all want it to be the best it can be, even when they do something stupid that makes us think otherwise.