Mimic: New Creative Sampler

[Timmy Crowne]

Mimic does a lot of things NNXT can't.

Yes. NNXT has been around for 19 years, yet it still does a lot of things that Mimic can’t.

[avasopht]

Yes. NNXT has been around for 19 years, yet it still does a lot of things that Mimic can’t.

Mimic wasn't intended to be a total superset of NNXT functionality. So sure. There are things NNXT does that Mimic can't.

They serve different needs.

[joeyluck]

Yes, Mimic can do some things NN-XT can't and NN-XT can do some things that Mimic can't. Which tells me one of two things: (A) They shouldn't be compared and/or (B) they are justified as separate products. Honestly, I'm curious by comparisons made to NN-XT.

I'm happy Mimic was introduced because Reason needed something like it. I am hopeful that they will introduce some of the much needed features.

Mimic as a simple sampler can be made more simple with features like root note analyzation and tempo sync. Other things like copy and paste of full slots or even just slot settings would greatly speed up workflow. Being able to import/export full REX files would be huge since so many users have so much content to play with in REX format. While you can import REX slices, you can't import full REX files. As a workaround, you can throw REX files in the sequencer, export as audio loops and then drop those into Mimic, but that's another workflow killer. It doesn't need complex features, just some polishing.

Additional features not as necessary that I think would be great would be a Multi Pitch mode where instead of playing all slots simultaneously, it would cycle through them with each note received. We could also probably build this in a Combinator if the Slot selection could be targeted. Maybe some different effects? Ensemble/Unison?

NN-XT can incorporate the more complex features. I just want it to handle legato samples.

[PhillipOrdonez]

While you people complain I've been making a bunch of music using only or mostly mimic. I love it

[Timmy Crowne]

Mimic wasn't intended to be a total superset of NNXT functionality. So sure. There are things NNXT does that Mimic can't.

They serve different needs.

Yes, that is evident. When RS announced a new sampler was coming in R12, I thought they meant a new flagship device that would build on the feature-set of NNXT. Guess I was wrong. I don’t begrudge those who like Mimic. Just voicing my $0.02.

[helmutson]

Mimic is useful for fast sample work, like the quick sampler in Logic. The strech/pitch quality is ok, but not perfect.
All in all, nothing spectacular ... R12.1 has still so many GUI errors , its simply annoying. If the seq, transportbar, browser, combinator gui etc. will get no HD, I don't see no sense in using R12 ... it's simply a bad user experience.

[Goriila Texas]

Yep and the architecture is already there to be the best hip hop DAW as it is the easiest to sample itself by hooking two cables. A powerful sampler should've been paramount from the beginning!

With you 100%

A year or 2 ago I said that Reason should lean heavily into the Hip-Hop community, because as a niche DAW with hardware-like devices, that is where they could actually shine, and pick up new users too.

"Kong 2", with extreme drum sculpting and layering tools, and some ideas stolen from MPCs, that would have been a killer device.

Mimic, but with proper tempo matching and note detection, and...well...all the things they half-assed, would also have been great. But here we are.

As part of the Hip Hop community we could've gave insight to build a more complete sampler as we have been barking for a new sampler for years. We've been creating our own instruments with samplers since the late 80's-90's

[Gardinski]

While you people complain I've been making a bunch of music using only or mostly mimic. I love it

Likewise. Yes, there are two or three aspects I find mildly frustrating, but I'm evolving workarounds, and I've come up with a bunch of musical nuggets that I wouldn't have found if I hadn't spent this week playing with Mimic.

I don't need it to be a complete all-in-one solution. The very nature of Reason is it's modularity. In a perverse way, having imperfect devices forces you to be more creative.

I'm not a 'sampler guy' or a 'hip hop guy'. I'm just a guitarist/songwriter who mucks about with synths on a daily basis, and who finds new devices fascinating purely because they stimulate fresh ideas... Especially the clunky devices and the ones that force me out of my comfort zone.

[selig]

it’s starting to feel more and more like the “we make tools that are supposed to inspire you” is some kind of cop out. every time they fail to deliver a truly impressive feature set, that’s their fallback refrain.

Inspiring tools and impressive feature sets don't always go hand in hand. Pro Tool has a much more impressive feature set, I've used it professional since the early 1990s. Yet, I can count the number of songs I've written in PT on one hand, literally. Reason OTOH, with/despite all its limitations still inspires me. Frustrates me too, but more often inspires.

When testing Mimic I immediately created a cool little song, and that has long been my test of any new instrument - can it inspire a song (features be damned).

[chaosroyale]

R12 isn't even out yet and people are already figuring out workarounds.
This is so...."Reason".
Workaround should not be the default setting.

[Popey]

Am I right in thinking the timestrech in mimic is not the same as in the reason daw.

Only ask as someone mentioned this on kvr and having the reason sequencer timestrech in a sampler was what I was interested in. I use live so sampling wise I feel I am covered and live timestrech is ok but having mimic in the rack with reasons timestrech was very appealing to me (I can always use reason daw for this still but workflow wise it is tedious)

That said Mimic seems to have a nice easy workflow and options so is a great addition for those that use the daw and being included in the core product rather than a paid re is good. For reason+/reason as an all in one option this adds value and perhaps they could look at the stock eq options now and add reason version of pro q3 etc.

Apologies for bumping my own thread but does anyone know if mimic timestrech is as good as in reason daw?

[chaosroyale]

I agree with your main point, but the problem is that many of those frustrations could be easily removed without affecting the inspiration part.

e.g. Not being able to zoom out the sequencer to see the whole song, or even any length above a few hundred bars. < This is just an embarrassment, and a work killer. With no positive side at all.

Inspiring tools and impressive feature sets don't always go hand in hand. Pro Tool has a much more impressive feature set, I've used it professional since the early 1990s. Yet, I can count the number of songs I've written in PT on one hand, literally. Reason OTOH, with/despite all its limitations still inspires me. Frustrates me too, but more often inspires.

[chaosroyale]

From what I have seen so far, I am 99% sure it that it is simplified, and not the same as the Reason DAW's timestretch/pitch adjust, which are very good.

In practice, for this kind of sampler, it will be good enough quality. It is not intended to be a mixing or mastering tool. Use the audio tracks for that. Even Kontakt's realtime algos are not perfect.

(see, I give credit where credit is due).

Am I right in thinking the timestrech in mimic is not the same as in the reason daw.

[Popey]

From what I have seen so far, I am 99% sure it that it is simplified, and not the same as the Reason DAW's timestretch/pitch adjust, which are very good.

In practice, for this kind of sampler, it will be good enough quality. It is not intended to be a mixing or mastering tool. Use the audio tracks for that. Even Kontakt's realtime algos are not perfect.

(see, I give credit where credit is due).

Am I right in thinking the timestrech in mimic is not the same as in the reason daw.

Thanks chaosroyale you have confirmed what I heard. Guess I will stick to using reason daw on the odd occasions I need the best timestrech possible.

[Gardinski]

R12 isn't even out yet and people are already figuring out workarounds.
This is so...."Reason".
Workaround should not be the default setting.

This genuinely made me giggle. You're absolutely right, of course... But workarounds are what it's all about, mate!

That's how we (as musicians) have always created our best stuff. Limitations are a fantastic way of generating material. I think there is a danger in being too polished, or in having endless tools that do EXACTLY what we want them to do.

I want instruments that fight back. That dig their heels in. That refuse to play fair.
I want instruments which bite the hand that feeds them!

Some of the best times I've had onstage have been when guitars conk out halfway through a solo. It forces you to think on your feet and reinvent as you go.

Maybe a truly broken Reason would give birth to the musical revolution the world so desperately craves!

[guitfnky]

it’s starting to feel more and more like the “we make tools that are supposed to inspire you” is some kind of cop out. every time they fail to deliver a truly impressive feature set, that’s their fallback refrain.

Inspiring tools and impressive feature sets don't always go hand in hand. Pro Tool has a much more impressive feature set, I've used it professional since the early 1990s. Yet, I can count the number of songs I've written in PT on one hand, literally. Reason OTOH, with/despite all its limitations still inspires me. Frustrates me too, but more often inspires.

When testing Mimic I immediately created a cool little song, and that has long been my test of any new instrument - can it inspire a song (features be damned).

no, they don’t necessarily go hand in hand, but unless I misread the requests here over the last few years, most of the people who wanted a new sampler seemed to be asking for it because they wanted a more robust feature set.

there are a ton of inspiring but limited new toys in Reason already—do we really need more? where are the modern workhorses?

people love Thor (I don’t, but many do). I don’t because it’s not inspiring *to me*, but it shows that there’s an appetite for both approaches. yet, they’ve mainly catered to one side of that coin, lately.

[chaosroyale]

Hey, I like the way you think!

and I agree up to a point, but we still expect guitar manufacturers to make sure all the tuning pegs work.

R12 isn't even out yet and people are already figuring out workarounds.
This is so...."Reason".
Workaround should not be the default setting.

This genuinely made me giggle. You're absolutely right, of course... But workarounds are what it's all about, mate!

That's how we (as musicians) have always created our best stuff. Limitations are a fantastic way of generating material. I think there is a danger in being too polished, or in having endless tools that do EXACTLY what we want them to do.

I want instruments that fight back. That dig their heels in. That refuse to play fair.
I want instruments which bite the hand that feeds them!

Some of the best times I've had onstage have been when guitars conk out halfway through a solo. It forces you to think on your feet and reinvent as you go.

Maybe a truly broken Reason would give birth to the musical revolution the world so desperately craves!

[selig]

In practice, for this kind of sampler, it will be good enough quality. It is not intended to be a mixing or mastering tool. Use the audio tracks for that. Even Kontakt's realtime algos are not perfect.

But neither is "real time", right? Both Kontakt and Mimic require you to load the sample to RAM first, then you can stretch it. But I digress…
Comparisons:
Vocal and Melody sound almost identical in the timeline vs Mimic. But there is no "advanced" stretch type for the timeline, and no "all around" type for Mimic so no direct comparison can be made.

But so far, and in the limited comparisons I've been able to do to date I actually prefer Mimic's Advance mode in many cases. I would describe the difference on a drum loop as follows:
The timeline's All Around sounds like all of the recording is stretched, the transients the ring/decay, and the reverb/room, which would often be what you want. But Mimic's Advance mode sounds like the time is stretched BETWEEN the hits, with the original transients being more preserved - you don't hear a longer drum hit, you hear more space between hits. Not sure if that's at all what's actually intended, just what I've heard in my initial testing to date.

What I like about all this is that we now have yet another fantastic stretch mode to choose from when trying to get the best results with stretching, as there really is no "one size fits all" when it comes to stretch algorithms in my experience and it pays to audition different algos when expecting a specific result.

[avasopht]

From what I have seen so far, I am 99% sure it that it is simplified, and not the same as the Reason DAW's timestretch/pitch adjust, which are very good.

In practice, for this kind of sampler, it will be good enough quality. It is not intended to be a mixing or mastering tool. Use the audio tracks for that. Even Kontakt's realtime algos are not perfect.

(see, I give credit where credit is due).

Thanks chaosroyale you have confirmed what I heard. Guess I will stick to using reason daw on the odd occasions I need the best timestrech possible.

Mimic works in real-time while Reason's timeline timestretch works offline. Naturally, the offline version can do much more thorough processing.

[avasopht]

But neither is "real time", right? Both Kontakt and Mimic require you to load the sample to RAM first, then you can stretch it. But I digress…
Comparisons:
Vocal and Melody sound almost identical in the timeline vs Mimic. But there is no "advanced" stretch type for the timeline, and no "all around" type for Mimic so no direct comparison can be made.

But so far, and in the limited comparisons I've been able to do to date I actually prefer Mimic's Advance mode in many cases. I would describe the difference on a drum loop as follows:
The timeline's All Around sounds like all of the recording is stretched, the transients the ring/decay, and the reverb/room, which would often be what you want. But Mimic's Advance mode sounds like the time is stretched BETWEEN the hits, with the original transients being more preserved - you don't hear a longer drum hit, you hear more space between hits. Not sure if that's at all what's actually intended, just what I've heard in my initial testing to date.

What I like about all this is that we now have yet another fantastic stretch mode to choose from when trying to get the best results with stretching, as there really is no "one size fits all" when it comes to stretch algorithms in my experience and it pays to audition different algos when expecting a specific result.

Yes but Mimic and Kontakt are doing timestretch on a per-note basis and can respond to the pitch wheel and portamento. Even if you've loaded the sample into RAM and processed the hell out of it, it still has to perform a timestretch in real-time based on the note and pitch offset.

[m.arthur]

I know the 'positive comments only' crowd will dislike this intensely, but I have to say: Mimic is a huge, staggering disappointment to me. It is an absolutely bog-standard 'modern era' sampler. It doesn't do anything novel or interesting or cute or exciting. Ableton Simpler does everything this does, and more (and if you're going to fire back about '8 layers', that's what Instrument Racks are for). It doesn't even look that good, honestly. The color scheme is unpleasant. The whole thing is just...generic. I wouldn't care as much about the UI if the Sampler had some awesome functionality, but....it doesn't. You can't even drag stuff into it from the arrangement. Again, you can drag Ableton clips into Simpler to turn them into sample-based instruments. How did RS not think of this? It's a glaring omission to say the least.

I was hoping for some kind of neat Reason Studios twist on sampling but this is just yet another basic-ass sampler. yawn.

[Noise]

Erm.. hope I'm not wrong... In "Slice Mode", you can't change the layer ( 1~8 ), or even automate it ? :O

[chaosroyale]

That's a very interesting observation, in the case of a drum/slice oriented sampler, a mode which leaves transients mostly intact would certainly be what you want, so that could indeed be a design choice.

You're 100% right that there is no single "best" mode or plugin for shifting, at least in the current state of the art. When using VST effects for pitch shifting I often use 2 different VSTs in the same combinator, with a switch to toggle them, because one sounds better shifting up, and the other sounds better shifting down. Likewise when shifting for dreamy shimmer verbs, I sometimes use valhalla delay purely as a shifter, because it has a soft, melodic, less transient sound. As you said, use the one that works best with your intention.

But so far, and in the limited comparisons I've been able to do to date I actually prefer Mimic's Advance mode in many cases. I would describe the difference on a drum loop as follows:
The timeline's All Around sounds like all of the recording is stretched, the transients the ring/decay, and the reverb/room, which would often be what you want. But Mimic's Advance mode sounds like the time is stretched BETWEEN the hits, with the original transients being more preserved - you don't hear a longer drum hit, you hear more space between hits. Not sure if that's at all what's actually intended, just what I've heard in my initial testing to date.

[RoryM0]

Erm.. hope I'm not wrong... In "Slice Mode", you can't change the layer ( 1~8 ), or even automate it ? :O

I've not got it but apparently you can only select the layer with key switching.

[selig]

Yes but Mimic and Kontakt are doing timestretch on a per-note basis and can respond to the pitch wheel and portamento. Even if you've loaded the sample into RAM and processed the hell out of it, it still has to perform a timestretch in real-time based on the note and pitch offset.

I get it, the last process is in real time - but it's not the same "real time" as you get with pitching a live signal with something like Polar etc. THAT is real time pitch shifting - if you have to load a sample or record audio to the timeline first, then one part of the process is non real time, no?

Compare running a speaker and mics to a live room and sending an audio signal into that room and returning the microphones to the mix in real time, vs shooting a swept sine into the same room with the same speakers/microphones, de-convolving that audio signal, and later convolving it with live audio to create the same effect - but decidedly not in "real time" when compared to the "real" real time. I guess it depends on when you start the clock whether or not you call it real time…