What makes Reason a great “Idea Starter”?

[gbuck]

My question would be that "Why Reason standalone would only be good for idea starting and not for the whole game?"

I can only answer for myself, but my general background is studio engineering using SSL and Pro Tools in the past.

The main problem is “the whole game” is really a huge market. It includes all genres of studio production, as well as film music, FX, dialog, and mixing. This means we’re talking about a DAW that can handle full mix automation/editing and supports large format controllers, large setups with multiple (labeled) inputs, unlimited sends and headphone mixing possibilities with as low a latency as possible, full video support, direct typing in for parameter values, locaters/markers, auto-punch w/pre roll, group edit tracks, track show/hide, snapshot automation, track freeze/unfreeze, mix versions, data import/export (channel settings, inserts, sequencer data, etc), network sharing, and probably a few more things I can’t think of this early with only 1/2 a coffee in my system!

At least for my work, Reason is better suited to a single user in a creative/home studio who needs to quickly sketch out ideas, or add instruments or creative effects to existing projects (with RRP). Reason falls short in my work for a few specific things, like having 32 inputs/outputs without being able to name them, fader automation that doesn’t read in dB or scale properly when editing, lack of auto punch, markers/locators, mix versions, direct data entry (come on!), group track editing, track show/hide, and since using LUNA I’m hooked on integrated tape/summing/console emulations.

Now pretty much none of these things except for (maybe auto punch and locators) applies to the idea stage, but none of them would necessarily get in my way either.
Or would they?
Could it be that all of these ‘big studio’ features, if added to Reason, would somehow take away from my feelings about the ability to start ideas and be creative?

Thanks Mr. Selig, this helps answering my questions. By the way I use 'Gain' and just recently purchased 'Leveler'. (and not just for the laundry). lol

[guitfnky]

Now pretty much none of these things except for (maybe auto punch and locators) applies to the idea stage, but none of them would necessarily get in my way either.
Or would they?
Could it be that all of these ‘big studio’ features, if added to Reason, would somehow take away from my feelings about the ability to start ideas and be creative?

I think there’s something to be said for knowing you’re working in an environment that can do nearly everything you need it to at every stage. there’s a sort of baseline cognitive load thing that goes on in the back of my head the whole time if I know I’m about to come up against something that will be a pain in the ass (even if I’m still at the sketching/idea stage). an example I’ve struggled with a lot this last year is putting a song together in Ableton Live, knowing I’ll probably need to do some vocal pitch editing in Melodyne. the rest of the process is a dream, but I’m always dreading getting to that stage because Live just isn’t good at that. I could come up with a hybrid workflow where I edit vocals in another DAW instead, but that brings me to the second part of the problem…

part of what makes Reason (and Live) appealing as a DAW is that I spend less time R-ingTFM and watching youtube tutorials—but if I want to try to do some things elsewhere, I have to go right back to R-ingTFM and watching youtube tutorials to figure that out. using Reason (or Live) as an up-front tool, and having to rely on other software to get things across the finish line lessens the utility of what Reason (or Live) brings to the table, IMO.

so for me, even if I accepted the “idea starter” premise, there’d still always be that little nagging voice at the back of my head warning that for as much fun as it all is, there’s something ahead that’s gonna suck—and that impacts my ability to create much more than an otherwise-inspiring piece of software ever could.

[robussc]

I just rewatched this video featuring Jeremy Lloyd of Marian Hill and it’s a great reminder of how capable Reason is in its own right. The FOMO we feel from hearing about features of other DAWs can blind us to the unique capabilities of this device.

For the level most of us work at, Reason is more than capable of delivering our vision.

[media] https://www.youtube.com/live/EYOSRx6GX_s?feature=share[/media]

[selig]

so for me, even if I accepted the “idea starter” premise, there’d still always be that little nagging voice at the back of my head warning that for as much fun as it all is, there’s something ahead that’s gonna suck—and that impacts my ability to create much more than an otherwise-inspiring piece of software ever could.

For the record, no one is asking anyone to change their mind about their tools, so you don’t have to worry about accepting or rejecting the idea of Reason as ‘idea starter’.

Also, we are all approaching this creative process with different goals. If I’m making a record for release, I tend to bite the bullet and be prepared for many additional ‘suckages’ along the way. At that level you’re already dividing the production into stages sometimes with different folks handling different aspects.

And even in the “one man shop” situations I suspect many would weight the suck factor against the results factor. For example, many times in my production process I get to a step which is not fun. But I take a deep breath knowing it’s part of the process, and try to imagine how good I’ll feel when it’s done.

A specific example is going through a track, say a vocal, with essentially under the microscope. This means listening through in solo and addressing any issues that you may find. The work is thankless and no fun at all, BUT the end result is the freedom in knowing you have a 100% solid vocal track to work with. Which means you can let it go off your radar which gives more time to focus on the next stages of production. Which also means IF you hear something, you are sure that at the least it’s NOT in the vocal track. Once you have done that for all individual tracks, it’s more fun for me to just mix and know there is nothing left to ‘fix’.

Bottom line, not every stage of production is fun, but the end results can make it worth it in most cases. It all depends on your specific goals IMO.

[guitfnky]

so for me, even if I accepted the “idea starter” premise, there’d still always be that little nagging voice at the back of my head warning that for as much fun as it all is, there’s something ahead that’s gonna suck—and that impacts my ability to create much more than an otherwise-inspiring piece of software ever could.

For the record, no one is asking anyone to change their mind about their tools, so you don’t have to worry about accepting or rejecting the idea of Reason as ‘idea starter’.

Also, we are all approaching this creative process with different goals. If I’m making a record for release, I tend to bite the bullet and be prepared for many additional ‘suckages’ along the way. At that level you’re already dividing the production into stages sometimes with different folks handling different aspects.

And even in the “one man shop” situations I suspect many would weight the suck factor against the results factor. For example, many times in my production process I get to a step which is not fun. But I take a deep breath knowing it’s part of the process, and try to imagine how good I’ll feel when it’s done.

A specific example is going through a track, say a vocal, with essentially under the microscope. This means listening through in solo and addressing any issues that you may find. The work is thankless and no fun at all, BUT the end result is the freedom in knowing you have a 100% solid vocal track to work with. Which means you can let it go off your radar which gives more time to focus on the next stages of production. Which also means IF you hear something, you are sure that at the least it’s NOT in the vocal track. Once you have done that for all individual tracks, it’s more fun for me to just mix and know there is nothing left to ‘fix’.

Bottom line, not every stage of production is fun, but the end results can make it worth it in most cases. It all depends on your specific goals IMO.

yeah, that’s fair, and I agree with pretty much all of it. the only caveat I’d add (and probably why I’m coming off as such a butthead on the topic) is that while not every stage of production is *fun*, there’s no stage of production that has to be actively *painful*. at least in my experience, there are things in one DAW that are painful (pitch correction in Live), that are made at least tolerable in another DAW (pitch correction in Reaper)—if not enjoyable, in some cases.

the end result IS the most important thing—just, you’re more inclined to work to get there if you minimize the sucky bits.

[DaveyG]

I've searched the great web and cannot find a comparison video that actually shows how the other DAW's are better. Maybe someone can point me in the right direction.

I mean - it’s all going to be subjective anyway. There’s a plethora of reasons why other (more popular) DAW are “better”, but most of those reasons boils down to what (those) users need. What YOU need may be completely different than what most others need. If Reason DAW works perfectly fine for you, then leave it at that. You don’t need someone to convince you to try another DAW.

I think the best DAW is the one you are not using. And if you switch to that one then the best DAW is another one you are not using, or maybe the one you just switched from.

[selig]

yeah, that’s fair, and I agree with pretty much all of it. the only caveat I’d add (and probably why I’m coming off as such a butthead on the topic) is that while not every stage of production is *fun*, there’s no stage of production that has to be actively *painful*. at least in my experience, there are things in one DAW that are painful (pitch correction in Live), that are made at least tolerable in another DAW (pitch correction in Reaper)—if not enjoyable, in some cases.

the end result IS the most important thing—just, you’re more inclined to work to get there if you minimize the sucky bits.

I guess I was going under the assumption the sucky work was already optimized, especially if it’s something done regularly. But even then it’s still sucky if you don’t actively enjoy doing it! But I’d guess that most folks have taken at least a little (if not a lot of) time to choose the tools that ‘suck the least’ for any important tasks. But I digress…

There are still things that IMO need a human to listen to all the way through and make judgement calls ( like cleaning a vocal track as I previously mentioned). And those things will likely always be less fun than most of the other parts of the production process.
Interestingly, I’ve met folks who LOVE doing that sort of technical rather than creative work, so I’d say we’re back to the “it depends” and “it’s a personal choice” type of conclusions.

But I think overall that there may be some general commonalities as for what makes the create process go smoother.
One big one appears to be simplicity, which I would think includes fewer steps to achieve any goal, clearer/easier to remember steps to achieve any goal, and less visual clutter overall.

I also feel stability plays a role, as does shelf life (being able to open older projects), and flexibility (ability of different users to achieve similar goals through different approaches). Then there’s fun factor, which for me might just be the visuals plus the modularity but for someone else could be the presets and the creative effects and for someone else something completely different etc.

[mimidancer]

I like reason because it has character. Its character inspires me. A TB303 is not cool because it is a great bass synth. It is the electric guitar of techno because it has character. I write music in reason because it has character. No one ever wrote a sequence on a TB 303 because of its workflow. Workflow is the language of craftsmen. It is a means to an end. Reason provides an environment worthy of an artist.

[raymondh]

I like using Reason as an "Idea Starter" when:
- I'm thinking about sound design as the catalyst for a track
-I don't know where I'm going, just want to "be with it", explore, discover and see what happens
- I have an idea in my head and want to get it down on a MIDI track in the least amount of time/fuss
- I think the track won't get too complicated

I'd rather use Reaper as the song starter when:
- I'm thinking of overall arrangement / story as the catalyst for a track
- I have a stronger view of where I'm going, and want the tool that will present less barriers when...
- ... I think the song is going to get busy ( = lot of tracks, or a lot of DSP-intensive instruments or FX )
- I'm using hardware synths / recording audio (and don't want to be fussed by audio latency)

Maybe the summary for me is Reason is a more fun and sand-boxy environment to play and explore.

Reason is the laboratory whereas Reaper is the factory?

As to the 'reason' why: Reason's UI is fantastic, especially dragging and dropping instruments from the left with pretty icons rather than names, the rack is still very cool and intuitive with the cabling, the menus are intuitive as is the SSL, spectrum EQ, Tools window, Blocks are great for organising thoughts on the overall arrangement, Rack Extensions and Native Reason synths are a great model where it's fun as a 'construction kit', the workflow is 'snappy' rather than having to wait for VSTs to load etc (and losing precious ideas during those fleeting moments and delays), the players and utilities help in the idea generation etc. I also way prefer the patch browser in Reason RE's over any VST I use. Not just the consistent approach, but easier to organise my custom patches, search, etc.

My highest productivity now is generally to start a song in Reaper, with some tracks using RRP. It's a reasonable middle-ground, knowing that I can be well organised with track folders (when track counts get high), I'll never run out of CPU (even when running lots of VK2 or ReSpire instances), and I can play with sound design in the rack plug-ins. But it's still not the same as banging out a fast song starter in Reason standalone.

[SebAudio]

I think the thing Reason has that other DAWs don't is an extra layer of immersion in the rack.

The best idea-started hands down is a guitar or a piano or any other physical instrument that just lets you be immersed in the process of producing sound. Reason is the next best thing to this, because not only are most REs skeuomorphic, but you can also flip them around and fiddle with the wires, which makes the whole thing that much more believable and thus more immersive.

For this reason I absolutely loathe how they changed the groove mixer from a skeuomorphic design to "wannabe Ableton" design, which works against immersion and without giving us an option to choose this with a tick in the settings. Terrible blunder, in my opinion.

The "skeuomorphic+flipit" immersive design even has advantages over the guitar and piano (or enter your instrument here) in that you can have literally 0 skill in any instrument to be able to immerse yourself and produce artistic value.

No other DAW has that extra layer of immersion but, unfortunately, this very same design produces a problem of clunky navigation in larger projects, which the sequencer, being what it is, makes absolutely no effort to compensate for.

Ed

I agree. I’m an « instrument (or FX) guy ». I start with an instrument, play it, play with it, reach for an FX or sequencer… and « song starter » can appear !
I like « my » instruments to be inspiring to start making tracks (or just « sounds »). Reason has instruments (FXs) which have great looking UIs which I can’t barely resist ! An I know them, I like them, they are « mine », I want to use them ! It can be the same with some VSTs (skeuomorphic ones for me, such as Repro) but then you want to add an FX or a sequencer and then you lost the immersion because you have to go back to the DAW, so change UI references, choose the FX or sequencer (it can be very time consuming if you have lot of them) so change UI references once again. The back and forth between all those « different » is not as fluid as in the Reason rack.
I now use RRP inside Live and have found that large projects are no longer a problem. Only I miss Remote which is also a big part of the immersion.

[petecampbell]

My production flow used to be:
Sketching in Reason ---> Producing in Logic

Lately i find that 70% of my tracks i just finish in Reason and achieve production ready results.

[selig]

…My highest productivity now…

Some great points, and I especially like your phrase “my highest productivity now” because I feel that’s what all of us really want.
Maybe your highest productivity comes from pencil and paper, maybe it comes from a room full of synths, or software (or a hybrid setup).

Working in Nashville I helped many a songwriter set up their home studios. Many of them just couldn’t wrap their heads around multi-tracking, even with the ‘all in one’ devices from Roland etc. A few quickly went back to a cassette or Mini Disc recorder (this was long before phones could do this job), as even the simplest multi track setups were not giving them the highest productivity. Simple as that IMO.

[EnochLight]

My highest productivity now is generally to start a song in Reaper

[raymondh]

…My highest productivity now…

Some great points, and I especially like your phrase “my highest productivity now” because I feel that’s what all of us really want.
Maybe your highest productivity comes from pencil and paper, maybe it comes from a room full of synths, or software (or a hybrid setup).

Working in Nashville I helped many a songwriter set up their home studios. Many of them just couldn’t wrap their heads around multi-tracking, even with the ‘all in one’ devices from Roland etc. A few quickly went back to a cassette or Mini Disc recorder (this was long before phones could do this job), as even the simplest multi track setups were not giving them the highest productivity. Simple as that IMO.

Wow! Technology sure is a blessing and a curse! Definitely take it forgranted when we can get our heads around new tech!

[raymondh]

My highest productivity now is generally to start a song in Reaper

Hahahaha thanks for that

[QVprod]

…My highest productivity now…

Some great points, and I especially like your phrase “my highest productivity now” because I feel that’s what all of us really want.
Maybe your highest productivity comes from pencil and paper, maybe it comes from a room full of synths, or software (or a hybrid setup).

Working in Nashville I helped many a songwriter set up their home studios. Many of them just couldn’t wrap their heads around multi-tracking, even with the ‘all in one’ devices from Roland etc. A few quickly went back to a cassette or Mini Disc recorder (this was long before phones could do this job), as even the simplest multi track setups were not giving them the highest productivity. Simple as that IMO.

There’s still a market for expensive keyboard arrangers for this very reason. DAWs are “too complicated“ for that market of music makers.

It’s all about what gets you moving the fastest.

[selig]

There’s still a market for expensive keyboard arrangers for this very reason. DAWs are “too complicated“ for that market of music makers.

It’s all about what gets you moving the fastest.

100% on #WhateverWorks!

There are all sorts of options with hardware these days, from Akai style boxes to arranger keyboards to Eurorack Sequencers…

Indeed, and possibly more importantly it occurs to me you don't have to use just ONE of these approaches. I also use my phone MEMO app for quick ideas, and my hardware setup where the mixer can record audio has been a pleasure to relax and play with ideas and be literally TWO buttons away from recording everything I'm hearing just like that.

[jlgrimes]

What makes Reason a great “Idea Starter”?
And what is the difference between a full blown DAW and a creative “idea starter”?

For me it’s a great idea starter partly because of the ‘fun factor’ for sure, but I can’t really clarify it much further than that. When it comes right down to it the proof is in the pudding as they say. Meaning, the results I get with Reason speak for themselves. I’ve not had that response from other DAWs in the past, though I’ve hardly had the time to try them all. Yet I struggle to put my finger on exactly what is the cause of Reason’s creative inspiration effect on me, or why other DAWs have NOT had that effect on my work.

So I’m wondering what others think, and why/how it is a great idea starter for so many folks. And what does this mean for how Reason should progress from here to focus on maintaining (or increasing) that ability to be a creative spark – thoughts?

Integration.

Basically it includes great sounding synths, presets and effects which is pretty important to inspire a user to write. Also its sequencer was pretty self explanatory and required minimal manual reading.

I think Ableton is also a great idea starter as well but to be honest its workflow is initially unintuitive and plenty of users of more traditional DAWs are put off by it. Ableton while also having great synths are a bit less user friendly than Reason's stuff (although Ableton's newer synths are alot more user friendly). Alot of Reason's synths are typically made with user friendliness in mind. Also Ableton IMO has less "bread and butter" sounds, where Reason has more "bread and butter" presets. That said Ableton Suite has a good selection of sounds but I think Reason excels in having good "basic" building block sounds for songwriting where Ableton has more "weird" sounds that might sound cool but you struggle to find a place for them but this is highly subjective.


I think as far as sounds and synths Reason is in the upper tier of the DAW category. What might could use some improvement is making it quicker to get good drum tracks going. Reason has alot of tools, devices for making drums but for certain genres that requires fast hihat rolls such as Trap, some of Reason's workflow can be more cumbersome than like FL Studio. Reason's Drum Sequencer is basically there but is kind of limited compared to what you can do in FL Studio. So if they would make an improvement I would do it there, but other than that Reason is already good for getting ideas down.

[ProfessaKaos]

For me when I use Reason (which is probably 90% of the time) I feel like I don't have to think to do anything I want to achieve where as other DAW's (such as Ableton, FL Studio, Studio One) I will have to watch a video here and there to achieve something I can easily do in Reason with no thought. I would put Pro Tools in a similar vein to Reason (as in ease of use of knowing its functions) I just don't find it inspiring for midi base Productions (as it feels more cumbersome/clunky) so I never use it to Compose/Produce Music.

[selig]

I’m hearing “user friendly” (jlgrimes) and “ease of use” (ProfessaKaos), which I would say are similar. But what do these phrases mean to us?

User friendly: to me this means “human” friendly. This goes back to the Macintosh days and the basic idea of teaching the computer about humans as opposed to teaching humans about the computer. This was originally exemplified by the difference in starting up a PC of the time (where all you see is a prompt and you have to know what to type next) vs starting up a Mac and seeing things you can interact with that are more familiar.

In Reason this likely translates to racks and cables and faders and knobs/buttons and using existing studio metaphors. In other words, using things we already know so that there is less to learn to get started.

Ease of Use: this one is a little trickier because what is easy for me may be difficult for someone else and vice versa. Being user friendly aids the ease of use factor, for sure, but what else contributes to this? For me, I can still see ways of simplifying Reason so it becomes easier to use, mainly by eliminating clicks and keystrokes to streamline the creative process. But what else is there?

What do these phrases mean to everyone here, and how well do you think Reason handles these? Is there room for growth in this area?

[Quarmat]

Having a bad instrument in your hand - in my experience - kills inspiration. I am not talking about an expensive instrument versus a cheap one. I'm talking about a beautiful one, which you feel like picking up and playing just for the feeling of interacting with something aesthetically pleasing versus an anonymous, cold, all-function-no-form instrument.

For me Reason is a pleasant instrument. As Aeox said, an inspirational environment. You can certainly, technically speaking, write a magnificent poem on a word processor in an aseptic room perfectly lit with white light, but one has been known to produce engaging works by going with a crumpled pencil and a ragged notepad to write uncomfortably while sitting on rocks near a waterfall in the mountains.

I am sure that from a technical point of view there are DAWs that are better performers than Reason, but from an inspirational point of view, gentlemen, there is no competition.

[EnochLight]

I'm talking about a beautiful one, which you feel like picking up and playing just for the feeling of interacting with something aesthetically pleasing versus an anonymous, cold, all-function-no-form instrument.

Honestly, this is one of the big reasons why I am drawn to Reason, and why I find DAW's like Reaper (and for a long time, Ableton Live) so uninspiring. Reason makes me want to interact with it, to play with it. The others don't (though I warmed to Ableton Live over the years... a little).