I ? Reason, and The Beatles

[Yorick]

Great music doesn't come from great gear, it comes from great musicians. Period. Full Stop. End of discussion.

Sooth!

[esselfortium]

To bring things back to 60s recordings.  From 67-68 I'm also a big fan on The Moody Blues - 'In Search of the Lost Chord' and 'On the Threshold of a Dream' are great examples of the time; tend to be overlooked due to the fact that the Moody Blues only ever seem to be mentioned in relation to 'Nights In White Satin'.  I think they were probably 8-track rather than 4-track recordings. though.

The place to go for mellotron!  

"The Voyage" from On The Threshold Of A Dream is an absolutely great piece of studio work. Pretty much everything in that song is Mellotron, other than the drums and the flute. It's all reverbed and multitracked and layered on top of itself to create huge sounds.

My favorite album of theirs is probably To Our Children's Children's Children, with Seventh Sojourn in a close second place. The studio layering and multitracking on Children's was so much that they had to intentionally strip things back down for their next album because they weren't able to play most of the songs live!

It's a real pity that they became such hacks later in their career, because they did some truly incredible music.

[selig]

Great topic! Lots of great info - George Martin IMHO is the greatest asset the Beatles could have hoped for. Here is an example something most of us would gate, inaudible in the mix until you know it's there.  8-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiIxiF- ... e=youtu.be

Speaking of which…
I love it when George switches pickups on "I Want You/She's So Heavy" before going into the lead - right in the middle of a silent part. NO ONE I know today would leave that in…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=8 ... uSms#t=213

Or the infamous Strawberry Fields edit just before 1:00, or the "Bloody Hell" in Hey Jude (around 2:58), and countless others.

[JNeffLind]

Great music doesn't come from great gear, it comes from great musicians. Period. Full Stop. End of discussion.

Sooth!

(but great gear is fun!) 

[esselfortium]

Speaking of which…
I love it when George switches pickups on "I Want You/She's So Heavy" before going into the lead - right in the middle of a silent part. NO ONE I know today would leave that in…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=8 ... uSms#t=213

Or the infamous Strawberry Fields edit just before 1:00, or the "Bloody Hell" in Hey Jude (around 2:58), and countless others.

Oh yeah. I love finding that sort of thing in a great song. Leaving in imperfections can give a song and performance so much more character and personality.

For a really extreme example, see "Hardcore UFOs", the opening track from Guided By Voices' critical darling Bee Thousand. Like everything else on the album, it's a Tascam 4-track cassette recording. Unlike everything else on the album, the song's master tape got eaten by a cassette player while the album was still being worked on, creating one of the two audible dropouts in the album's first minute.

And a funny story about that is: Bob came and gave me the tape. He dropped it off. Because he used to come in like one Saturday every month and buy records and talk. He was hanging out with Mike Rep a lot, mastering records in the Annex. So he brings the tape, drops it off, leaves. He’s probably just to the top of the stairs. I put it in the tape player, and Used Kids’ f---ing tape player eats the goddamn tape. I pull it out and it’s this long. So I do the whole pencil/pen winding it, pulling it, taping it together. It was like, “F---!” I put it away because I was like, “I’ll deal with this later.”

[...]

So then like two months later, Bob calls me. He goes, “Bela, you still have that song, ‘Hardcore UFO's’?” And I was like, “Yeah, it’s in a box.” He goes, “Well, I recorded a better song I want to give you, and we’re going to put that on our new record.” And I go, “Don’t you have a copy?” He goes, “No, you have the only copy.” So he’s like, “Listen, we’re driving up to Cleveland today, so I’m going to stop by and pick it up, OK? And I’ll give you the other one.” And I was like, “Sure!” I didn’t say anything. I just gave it to him.

(source)

[offaxisdaddy]

Speaking of which…
I love it when George switches pickups on "I Want You/She's So Heavy" before going into the lead - right in the middle of a silent part. NO ONE I know today would leave that in…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=8 ... uSms#t=213

Or the infamous Strawberry Fields edit just before 1:00, or the "Bloody Hell" in Hey Jude (around 2:58), and countless others.

There are many accidents/errors throughout the Beatles catalog. Aside from these you can also find a few flubbed vocal lines (a good example is Please Please Me stereo vs. mono version), wrong notes/chords etc.. The best example of a very flawed recording is "She Loves You" (aprox 1:20-1:30), . The edits are glaring - the backing track was spliced from multiple takes that were eq'd very differently and you can hear phasing in the cymbals around the edit points as well. Imperfect production, yet still no. 1. In todays world this would be marked for a remake and shelved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0YifXhm-Zc

[LudvigC]

I love it when George switches pickups on "I Want You/She's So Heavy" before going into the lead - right in the middle of a silent part. 

John, I think. All accounts I've read says he's the one dubbing his vocal line on guitar (which I guess means George is the guitar in the left channel).

Fun thread!

[Namahs Amrak]

Accidents, errors, imperfections are what makes music great. I am always drawn to the squeking high hat stand (or maybe a kick pedal) in Led Zeppelin's 'Since I've Been Lovin' You' and to filter that out would ruin the song. I wonder if the recent remaster has removed?

[offaxisdaddy]

Accidents, errors, imperfections are what makes music great. I am always drawn to the squeking high hat stand (or maybe a kick pedal) in Led Zeppelin's 'Since I've Been Lovin' You' and to filter that out would ruin the song. I wonder if the recent remaster has removed?

I agree! It is character that has been lost in the digital age of crystal clear recording. And yes, the squeaky kick pedal is still very much present on the Led Zeppelin III remaster 

[Ostermilk]

Great article, good thread.

[Namahs Amrak]

Great article, good thread.

Cheers Uncle. I sincerely hope that the time I spent writing the OP will help at least one person reconsider any perceived limitations in their software. A person on Reason 7.1 truly has no need to ever upgrade again.

It would also please me if just one Beatles naysayer was converted to the religion of awesome that Sgt Peppers is

[dE.niz]

Love the sixties, love sound, love the Beatles.
I was born in 1950 so I was in that beautiful time.
Nice thread.

dE.niz

[Ostermilk]

Great article, good thread.

Cheers Uncle. I sincerely hope that the time I spent writing the OP will help at least one person reconsider any perceived limitations in their software. A person on Reason 7.1 truly has no need to ever upgrade again. It would also please me if just one Beatles naysayer was converted to the religion of awesome that Sgt Peppers is

I tend to think stuff like Sgt. Peppers occur as the outcome of a symbiosis of the participants combined with a time where it all comes together (no pun intended).  JL's alleged dismisal of the importance of George Martin during that time is a glaring failure to grasp what actually happened.  He could say "well what is George Martin doing now" but it could equally be stated what did he and McCartney do after that?  They all enjoyed continued success but nothing from any one of them ever acheived that pinnacle of acheivment where the sum was far greater than the parts.

You see it with many other bands/setups in relation to the time they are in where a peak is reached and something happens that was unforeseen and never repeated again.

I guess every dog has it's day, and whilst they leave a legacy, a fantastic reference of what actually happened you cannot actually seperate the art from it's time.  Which is great really when you think about it as it means the very best is still yet to come and it likely won't sound anything like the Beatles.

I wholeheartedly agree though, we're all equipped much better than they were, and no amount of gear ever made anything without some user input.

[selig]

Great article, good thread.

Cheers Uncle. I sincerely hope that the time I spent writing the OP will help at least one person reconsider any perceived limitations in their software. A person on Reason 7.1 truly has no need to ever upgrade again. It would also please me if just one Beatles naysayer was converted to the religion of awesome that Sgt Peppers is

I tend to think stuff like Sgt. Peppers occur as the outcome of a symbiosis of the participants combined with a time where it all comes together (no pun intended).  JL's alleged dismisal of the importance of George Martin during that time is a glaring failure to grasp what actually happened.  He could say "well what is George Martin doing now" but it could equally be stated what did he and McCartney do after that?  They all enjoyed continued success but nothing from any one of them ever acheived that pinnacle of acheivment where the sum was far greater than the parts.

You see it with many other bands/setups in relation to the time they are in where a peak is reached and something happens that was unforeseen and never repeated again.

I guess every dog has it's day, and whilst they leave a legacy, a fantastic reference of what actually happened you cannot actually seperate the art from it's time.  Which is great really when you think about it as it means the very best is still yet to come and it likely won't sound anything like the Beatles.

I wholeheartedly agree though, we're all equipped much better than they were, and no amount of gear ever made anything without some user input.

Some great points there,  !

My only point about the gear of yesterday vs today is that we have nothing to complain about today. It has always taken user input, that much hasn't changed. What HAS changed is that it's cheeper, quicker, and easier to do so than ever before - but is the music being produced any "better"?

That the "art" in music hasn't increased in any measurable way over this same time frame proves the tools don't necessarily affect the outcome.

[michael.jaye]

 
How about you? What do you like about Reason?

I love the arrange window. I know a lot of people think it's too simple and lacking in advanced editing features, but I never clicked with Logic or Cubase because I never really learnt to use the tools in it. 

Having only just started to record more audio, I find it weird the way multiple takes are recorded, but it's getting easier the more I do it.

[michael.jaye]

Great music doesn't come from great gear, it comes from great musicians. Period. Full Stop. End of discussion.

Too true. My all-time favourite album(s) are Ex Red Hot Chili Peppers guitarist John Frusciante's first album. The recording I think was done at home on a 4track recorder, as he sunk depper and deeper into a heroin-addicted madness. The recording is noisey, the playing sometimes sloppy, and it doesn't matter one bit. Reminds mo Syd Barret a bit.

Anyway, it's haunting and classic. Start to finish. Check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG4yU3IIPdc

[Tre Trelos]

Lets not forget Geoff Emerick when talking Sgt. Peppers.  His book is an interesting read.

[offaxisdaddy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULcLT1A ... e=youtu.be

Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band is infamous for what could be accomplished with 4-track recording. I'm curious to learn more about the 4-track technology Abbey Road had back in 1967 - was it standard 4 mono tracks or 4 stereo tracks (which I would think would  technically be 8-track, even if stereo pairs are hardwired to the fader as 1 "track" each )? 

Examining the stems of "Being For The Benefit of Mr. Kite" reveals 3 mono tracks and 1 stereo track - totaling 5 tracks. Drums, Bass and vocals are indeed mono - but the track containing the harmonium, piano, organ and tape loops is stereo. The stereo track is not the product of added fx or haas - there are definitely different things going on in each channel.

Does anybody know if they were capable of syncing 2 4-track machines for mixing way back in '66-'67? I would love to know what other studio magic took place that Martin and Emerick have yet to share when it comes to how they overcame the limitations of mid 60's studio technology.

[Tre Trelos]

Here, There and Everywhere: My Life Recording the Music of the Beatles  by Geoff Emerick.

Not much better source than the guy who was actually there.
Though his take on Harrison is disappointing.

[atitlan]

Examining the stems of "Being For The Benefit of Mr. Kite" reveals 3 mono tracks and 1 stereo track - totaling 5 tracks. Drums, Bass and vocals are indeed mono - but the track containing the harmonium, piano, organ and tape loops is stereo. The stereo track is not the product of added fx or haas - there are definitely different things going on in each channel.

I don't know where those stems have been sourced from, but for the newer remasters and the anthologies all tapes were available so it's possible that some elements are pre-bounce.

According to "The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions" , the base of the track was a band recording with bass, drums and harmonium - how that was miked and spread across the tracks is not stated.  The tape loops were actually made the following day for the fairground organ effects.

Organ and tapes were overdubbed as the last part of the recording process.

[dvdrtldg]

I love the Beatles and they've been a huge influence on my music, both as a listener and as a player.

But imo Sgt Peppers is one of the most overrated albums ever. A few standout tracks and a whole bunch of dreck (which is pretty much my opinion of the White Album as well).

I'd certainly never steer anyone in the direction of Sgt Peppers if I was trying to get them into the Beatles. For my money it's Rubber Soul for "old school" singer/songwriter Beatles and Revolver for "new school" druggy experimental Beatles. Throw in Help! and Abbey Rd, and there's your classic Beatles canon.

All other points taken though - George Martin was brilliant, Lennon was an asshole, the imperfections in the recordings are perfect. The Beatles were fucking genius.

[offaxisdaddy]

I don't know where those stems have been sourced from, but for the newer remasters and the anthologies all tapes were available so it's possible that some elements are pre-bounce.

I'm unsure of how the were sourced - these were "gifted" to me back in 2002 so I'm assuming they were leaked from the anthology sessions. I did not download these - I actually was handed a bunch of cd-r's with no further info.

According to "The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions" , the base of the track was a band recording with bass, drums and harmonium - how that was miked and spread across the tracks is not stated.  The tape loops were actually made the following day for the fairground organ effects.

Organ and tapes were overdubbed as the last part of the recording process.

I have the Lewisohn book too, great resource! Another interesting tidbit is that ad-libed lennon vocal (Anthology 2) which can be heard toward the end of where the "loop solo" would eventually be is slightly audible on the drum track as well - but is absent from the vocal track. I would think the drums, bass and harmonium were each afforded their own track and the fourth a guide vocal to begin - it's how they went about overdubs to get that 5th track that has perplexed me. I guess that pre-bounce mixed with final makes sense, but why stop with just the three isolated instruments if the harmonium was also available in pre-bounce isolation? Still more questions than answers - and I'm definitely going to get my hands on a copy of Geoff Emetics book!

[esselfortium]

A few standout tracks and a whole bunch of dreck (which is pretty much my opinion of the White Album as well).

Double albums are a great place to be weird, though. It stretches out in all sorts of bewildering directions, but there's enough straightforward material on it that there's always something to latch onto right around the corner. Sequencing the album around those stark contrasts and sharp left turns was a great way of keeping it interesting throughout. It's a wild ride with an influential aesthetic of its own, totally distinct from the rest of the Beatles catalog.

I think it's great that The Beatles were so willing to experiment with the album format and try oddball things like the White Album or side B of Abbey Road.

Plus, without the White Album we probably wouldn't have the wonderfully weird, sprawling double album Let It Beard.

[selig]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULcLT1A ... e=youtu.be

Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band is infamous for what could be accomplished with 4-track recording. I'm curious to learn more about the 4-track technology Abbey Road had back in 1967 - was it standard 4 mono tracks or 4 stereo tracks (which I would think would  technically be 8-track, even if stereo pairs are hardwired to the fader as 1 "track" each )? 

Examining the stems of "Being For The Benefit of Mr. Kite" reveals 3 mono tracks and 1 stereo track - totaling 5 tracks. Drums, Bass and vocals are indeed mono - but the track containing the harmonium, piano, organ and tape loops is stereo. The stereo track is not the product of added fx or haas - there are definitely different things going on in each channel.

Does anybody know if they were capable of syncing 2 4-track machines for mixing way back in '66-'67? I would love to know what other studio magic took place that Martin and Emerick have yet to share when it comes to how they overcame the limitations of mid 60's studio technology.

4 mono tracks (no such thing as a stereo track until DAWs). I don't think they were syncing, just recording and bouncing to a second machine (having two 4 tracks means you don't have to leave a spare track open to bounce). That's also why they still have the original stems (the ones used to create the LOVE remixes), because if they only had one machine then after they bounced they would have to record over the original tracks, erasing them forever.

[selig]

I love the Beatles and they've been a huge influence on my music, both as a listener and as a player.

But imo Sgt Peppers is one of the most overrated albums ever. A few standout tracks and a whole bunch of dreck (which is pretty much my opinion of the White Album as well).

I'd certainly never steer anyone in the direction of Sgt Peppers if I was trying to get them into the Beatles. For my money it's Rubber Soul for "old school" singer/songwriter Beatles and Revolver for "new school" druggy experimental Beatles. Throw in Help! and Abbey Rd, and there's your classic Beatles canon.

All other points taken though - George Martin was brilliant, Lennon was an asshole, the imperfections in the recordings are perfect. The Beatles were fucking genius.

Thus the beauty of music, like all beauty, is in the eye of the beholder!