Upfront vocals. (need help)

[MarkTarlton]

Oh I totally agree on that but often its good to at least understand the science of whats happening because its so easy to identify *some* change as a change for the better. You might end up with doing a whole bunch of things that you think are doing some thing but actually they don't or you misinterpret the result.

good stuff normen! I do pay attention to the specs to some degree when researching and comparing products, but I am a skeptic to some degree until I try it out for myself.

All specs are misleading if you don't understand the science behind them. Add to that the fact they can be "spun" to mislead you further, you're better off assuming they are all misleading from the start and working  back from there IMO!

I fall somewhere between these camps. Having been raised (science wise) by an older brother who is a radio engineer/geek, and having had the opportunity to study and work under both school taught and self taught audio engineers (as well as my time at Belmont University's recording studio in their recording program), I have to say I apply both approaches equally and constantly. I'm convinced that without either one, I'd be totally lost.

Hey, whatever works - you can't argue with success, you can only wonder if there would have been even MORE success or not if anything had been done differently (a question I can't seem to ever get out of my head)!

yup! it's good to have some of that knowledge, especially when it comes to understanding the potential of damaging your gear!

I think we all agree on this

[TheGoodGoodMan]

Do you thing I'm going to need Cloudlifter for sm7b with Ph Balance?

Balance has an input impedance of 2.2kOhm and a S/N ratio of 83dB at full gain, the 150Ohm output impedance of the SM7b is also very low already so you'll probably hardly notice any difference. It might sound a bit different due to the slightly higher input impedance but you probably won't get any hard advantage worth mentioning.

Thanks.
I am thinking of giving SM7b a chance. I have Se2200a, it's a condenser mic so it's picking up everything around it, which is not that good in a home studio. It will be nice to have choice between condenser and dynamic mic.
I wonder how sound quality of this two compare. Any one here have both?
Btw what will be the longest recommended cable to go with SM7b?

[EnochLight]

I have Se2200a, it's a condenser mic so it's picking up everything around it, which is not that good in a home studio. It will be nice to have choice between condenser and dynamic mic. I wonder how sound quality of this two compare. Any one here have both? Btw what will be the longest recommended cable to go with SM7b?

The SE2200a is a large diaphragm cardioid condenser - its sensitivity is inherent to that sort of mic.  My Audio Technica AT3035 demonstrates similar sensitivity - adding an acoustic baffle behind it and using a mic reflection filter does wonders for helping eliminate its tendancy to pick up unwanted stuff.  

As for cable length, have you measured how far you need to position your mic from your audio interface?  Assuming you buy a quality shielded cable, you can go as long as you need, but in a home project studio anything between 10 foot to 20 foot should be ample.

[Kategra]

Read this great article to understand the noise specs out of a mic/preamp:
http://www.rane.com/note148.html

[Last Alternative]

^Great article. I always research everything I buy. When you go blindly to say Guitar Center or any music store they don't know shit. All they do is try to sell you the top sellers which usually isn't what you really need.

[TheGoodGoodMan]

I am not an expert on vocals, but this guy certainly is:

That gives me an idea how to "improve" Julibee ...idea .
Why not to put a high pass filter on left and right vocal track. Reverb will be more airy and transparent.
 

And here is a similar take on this idea of using 3 mono vocal sources.

[TheGoodGoodMan]

This might be useful as well: 

I know it's not in Reason but the ideas are universal and translate well to other DAWs.
I highly recommend watching some other videos of Dave P. I learned a lot from Him.
Hope it helps.

[TheGoodGoodMan]

I have Se2200a, it's a condenser mic so it's picking up everything around it, which is not that good in a home studio. It will be nice to have choice between condenser and dynamic mic. I wonder how sound quality of this two compare. Any one here have both? Btw what will be the longest recommended cable to go with SM7b?

The SE2200a is a

large diaphragm

cardioid condenser - its sensitivity is inherent to that sort of mic.  My Audio Technica AT3035 demonstrates similar sensitivity - adding an acoustic baffle behind it and using a mic reflection filter does wonders for helping eliminate its tendancy to pick up unwanted stuff.  

As for cable length, have you measured how far you need to position your mic from your audio interface?  Assuming you buy a quality shielded cable, you can go as long as you need, but in a home project studio anything between 10 foot to 20 foot should be ample.

Thanks.
I will have my hands on SM7b tomorrow    . 
I decided to pull a trigger on it. My reasoning was: to make most of Se2200a i needed some room treatment just for vocal  and a mic reflection filter which cost money. Probably even after all that, the sound quality won't be as good as of SM7b. Apart of that it will be good to have a choice between condenser and dynamic mic.

[eusti]

I have Se2200a, it's a condenser mic so it's picking up everything around it, which is not that good in a home studio. It will be nice to have choice between condenser and dynamic mic. I wonder how sound quality of this two compare. Any one here have both? Btw what will be the longest recommended cable to go with SM7b?

The SE2200a is a

large diaphragm

cardioid condenser - its sensitivity is inherent to that sort of mic.  My Audio Technica AT3035 demonstrates similar sensitivity - adding an acoustic baffle behind it and using a mic reflection filter does wonders for helping eliminate its tendancy to pick up unwanted stuff.  

As for cable length, have you measured how far you need to position your mic from your audio interface?  Assuming you buy a quality shielded cable, you can go as long as you need, but in a home project studio anything between 10 foot to 20 foot should be ample.

Thanks.
I will have my hands on SM7b tomorrow    . 
I decided to pull a trigger on it. My reasoning was: to make most of Se2200a i needed some room treatment just for vocal  and a mic reflection filter which cost money. Probably even after all that, the sound quality won't be as good as of SM7b. Apart of that it will be good to have a choice between condenser and dynamic mic.

Please report your findings!

That's one of the ones that I might be considering as well... Right now I have an AKG 3000b and feel it is ok... But recorded some tracks at a friends with his Rode NT1 a while ago and felt it sounded better... Not sure if that was due to his post processing or what... Still trying to get him to send me the raw files to compare... Mmmh... Well, I think right now for me practicing more is the one thing that will bring the best results though!

[Gaja]

Was it an original Rode Nt1, or was it an NT1a? Because the original, or so I've heard, was modelled right after the Neumann U87, in fact so close that they were legally forced to stop production of the NT1 and make changes to it, hence the NT1a.
I'd say for some applications, like speech, the sm7b will almost certainly be the better choice, while the NT1a will sound less intimate and maybe even a bit harsh, or sharp.
The NT1 however might very well be better than the other two in most situations (I only used it once, sadly, so I can't compare them now).

[eusti]

Thanks, Gaja!

I think it was the NT1 version, I might have to wait till I go back and take my AKG with me to do a comprehensive test... Another friend offered to loan me his Audio Technica 4050 to test... I'm somewhat afraid I'll actually like it!

D.

[EthicistBeats]

i didn't read the whole thread [its early and i gotta go to work] so take this with a grain of salt... BUT:

CUT THE LOW MIDS. I know counterintuitive, but maybe there's some fluff that's making things unfocused.Peace.

[EnochLight]

Those tips from Dave Pensado's Into the Lair series are really helpful.  I don't particularly care for the genre of music he works with, but with an active roster of 200-250 mixes a year at Larrabee Studios, he's got a massive resume of experience.  Good stuff.  

[skie]

Didn't see any mention of double tracking - you can research this more in depth online but it basically involves two copies of the track offset by a few nudges, gives a more 3D feel to the vocal, definitely a great technique at least for the chorus section of the song.

[selig]

Didn't see any mention of double tracking - you can research this more in depth online but it basically involves two copies of the track offset by a few nudges, gives a more 3D feel to the vocal, definitely a great technique at least for the chorus section of the song.

You mention double tracking, but describe a simple delay. Double track is a literal term, and means you track (record) the performance twice. There are always differences between two different performances, and that is what gives this approach the unique effect.

When you duplicate a track a nudge it, it's a simple delay. You can do this with a delay effect too, and in both cases it's a more robotic effect IMO. Short delays (below around 30-40 ms) will impart a "tone" or pitch to the effect (based on the delay time) due to the comb filtering and resonating effect. 

Doubling doesn't usually create a more upfront effect - more voices typically means less intimate IMO. But it's a super cool and very popular effect that has yet to be duplicated by electronic means IMO!

[skie]

^Yes, that's how I do my guitar tracks, two takes of the same track, and the subtle difference in the performance makes it sound "thicker" and more alive.  Wouldn't taking two copies of the track and nudging one result in a thicker sound than just putting on a delay on one copy though?  Agreed - not necessarily an upfront sound, but def has its place.

[Last Alternative]

So Selig- When you have double tracked vocals, how do you process them? Mirror EQ? Both panned center? I'd like some teachings on the matter since I've been double tracking more often.

[selig]

^Yes, that's how I do my guitar tracks, two takes of the same track, and the subtle difference in the performance makes it sound "thicker" and more alive.  Wouldn't taking two copies of the track and nudging one result in a thicker sound than just putting on a delay on one copy though?  Agreed - not necessarily an upfront sound, but def has its place.

A delay is a delay! Nudging a clip vs nudging the samples = same thing! What are you thinking would be different?

The beauty of doubling, and something that is often overlooked, is that the end effect depends totally on your performance. Each person "doubles" differently IMO. That's just one of the reasons why you can't re-create this seemingly simple effect - it's 100% performance based.

[selig]

So Selig- When you have double tracked vocals, how do you process them? Mirror EQ? Both panned center? I'd like some teachings on the matter since I've been double tracking more often.

For lead vocals, panned the same with the double @ the same or lower level than the original. 

For BGVs, acoustic, and electric guitars, panned opposite and at equal level. 

Same EQ etc in all cases (so far, at least!). 

Not that there are any rules, that's just what has worked best in the past for the projects I've worked on. As always, it's best to hear stuff like this from multiple sources IMO so I hope others chime in here!

[TheGoodGoodMan]

Thanks.
I will have my hands on SM7b tomorrow    . 
I decided to pull a trigger on it. My reasoning was: to make most of Se2200a i needed some room treatment just for vocal  and a mic reflection filter which cost money. Probably even after all that, the sound quality won't be as good as of SM7b. Apart of that it will be good to have a choice between condenser and dynamic mic.

Please report your findings!

That's one of the ones that I might be considering as well... Right now I have an AKG 3000b and feel it is ok... But recorded some tracks at a friends with his Rode NT1 a while ago and felt it sounded better... Not sure if that was due to his post processing or what... Still trying to get him to send me the raw files to compare... Mmmh... Well, I think right now for me practicing more is the one thing that will bring the best results though!

I just finished testing SM7B and decided to send it back. The Difference in quality between it and my Se2200a in not big enough to justify over £300. The biggest difference was in siblings, which were more apparent on Se2200a but you can easily fix it using DeEssers.
It's a shame because I hoped for some quality spike in my vocal recordings, oh well... Maybe I will follow this punch and look for some other options... I kind of spent this money already   , but up to £300 I doubt something will beat Se2200a.

[eusti]

I just finished testing SM7B and decided to send it back. The Difference in quality between it and my Se2200a in not big enough to justify over £300. The biggest difference was in siblings, which were more apparent on Se2200a but you can easily fix it using DeEssers.
It's a shame because I hoped for some quality spike in my vocal recordings, oh well... Maybe I will follow this punch and look for some other options... I kind of spent this money already   , but up to £300 I doubt something will beat Se2200a.

Thanks for reporting back! I appreciate it!

D.

[QVprod]

Thanks.
I will have my hands on SM7b tomorrow    . 
I decided to pull a trigger on it. My reasoning was: to make most of Se2200a i needed some room treatment just for vocal  and a mic reflection filter which cost money. Probably even after all that, the sound quality won't be as good as of SM7b. Apart of that it will be good to have a choice between condenser and dynamic mic.

Please report your findings!

That's one of the ones that I might be considering as well... Right now I have an AKG 3000b and feel it is ok... But recorded some tracks at a friends with his Rode NT1 a while ago and felt it sounded better... Not sure if that was due to his post processing or what... Still trying to get him to send me the raw files to compare... Mmmh... Well, I think right now for me practicing more is the one thing that will bring the best results though!

I just finished testing SM7B and decided to send it back. The Difference in quality between it and my Se2200a in not big enough to justify over £300. The biggest difference was in siblings, which were more apparent on Se2200a but you can easily fix it using DeEssers.
It's a shame because I hoped for some quality spike in my vocal recordings, oh well... Maybe I will follow this punch and look for some other options... I kind of spent this money already   , but up to £300 I doubt something will beat Se2200a.

No mic is going to work magic on vocals. Some might suit some voices on some songs better than others, but no decent mic is going to inherently give you a bad recording.

Mic choice in my experience just determines what kind of processing I need after recording. For example; for my personal home studio setup I have an AT2020 and a (modded inner mesh removed) MXLV63m. I'll alternate which one I use depending on how I envision the vocals sounding. If I want it bright, I go for the AT2020, otherwise for a more and fuller sound or even darker sound I'll use the V63m. Both capable of good results depending on the application.

[inmatus]

Was scanning through this thread. The source of course

Otherwise what I use now and then on top what is said:

Polar: Stereo spread to thicken the lead vocal. 
Actually RPverb has a nice patch "vocal room in to head" that you can tweak around with. Works fine I think

[JackRussell]

Easy and effective way for mixing vocals in Reason. 

https://youtu.be/xXVhV8dTdJw

[selig]

For getting the ends of vocal lines to cut through (as mentioned in the above video), the BEST way is to ride those puppies. It's the "old skool" approach you've heard on countless records and always beats smashing the crap out of a vocal, even when using parallel techniques, mainly because there's no "smashing the crap" part involved! Not that you shouldn't compress a vocal, just that there are better ways IMO of dealing with the end of lines, which are a HUGE key to getting vocals to cut through a mix in my experience.