[Thor] LFO key sync / retrigger, need help

[exe135]

Hi,

There is something I do not understand how it works or if it works the way I want it to.

I would like to make a monophonic sound - for example a wobble bass - that restarts its LFO with keypress. (for example for syncopated lines)

LFO Key Sync On
Keyboard Mode Mono Retrigger
(Mod LFO -> Filter Freq.)

However when playing legato the LFO does not reset with each note. The first and second(!) note reset the LFO 90% of the time (not always), the third and subsequent notes never do.

If i play non legato (key off before next key on), everything works fine (but I dont't want that, can't add portamento etc)
If I switch to Polyphonic mode, everything works as intended as well, all subsequent notes start at the "top" of the LFO waveform (but I don't want that eighter)
(In Mono Legato mode, it does not reset the lfo of couse, as expected.)

Sometimes - rarely - even the first note will not start at the "top" of the LFO waveform.
What is this about?

I hope I did make myself clear (I could add pics or sound if not).
Thanks you very much for help!

[Benedict]

A pic would help a lot.

[exe135]

http://postimg.org/image/5fqkv675v/
(patch just for demonstration)
Just seeing the patch will not really help I presume, you have to try it out.

So to summarize:
- I want to play monophonic legato
- I want the LFO to reset with every note

Right now it often doesn't reset, which sounds like a "slow attack" in this case.
Thanks!

[Benedict]

Hi

I think this would be working perfectly but you may not have understood the Phase of the LFO which would be starting at a lower point and then rising. You need an LFO that you can change the phase (or duty cycle) of so that you can define at which pint the LFO starts. Options would be Pulsar, Little LFO (assuming you can still buy that one), CV Mutant, and others. OR hold out a bit and get Kron which is just about any CV thing you could ever need in one box.

[selig]

Do things work as expected if you use LFO 2 instead of LFO 1?

[exe135]

LFO2 behaves the same. [Edit: no eventually not the same, but not how I want it. Can't test further now]

With Little LFO it behaves the way I want it, as shown in this image of the devices:
http://postimg.org/image/kn1txc6fh/

I tried to draw, what I want, the LFO starting always at the same point. !With Thor:
http://postimg.org/image/shxmgzh03/
Top is, what I want
Bottom, what I get.

I have found out that with Thor the Start Amplitude of the LFO is determined whether the "previous" one was going "up" or "down" at Keypress.
When it was going down, the next Note's Cycle starts at -100 / "the bottom". Or so it seems. Still don't get around what really happens.

[kloeckno]

You should use Little LFO connected to a CV input on Thor to modulate whatever parameter you were using the built-in LFO for. If it works as expected, by putting Thor and Little LFO in a Combinator you could easily achieve what you want. The modular nature of Reason is one of the strong points of the program, after all!

[exe135]

That's what I did, and it works as intended. (In the pic above, LittleLFO connected on the back to Filter1) I just want to know how Thor's LFO works, and why it's different.

Keysync works obviously not the same way. Thor's LFO cycle does not start at the same point every note?

[selig]

LFO2 behaves the same. [Edit: no eventually not the same, but not how I want it. Can't test further now]

With Little LFO it behaves the way I want it, as shown in this image of the devices:
http://postimg.org/image/kn1txc6fh/

I tried to draw, what I want, the LFO starting always at the same point. !With Thor:
http://postimg.org/image/shxmgzh03/
Top is, what I want
Bottom, what I get.

I have found out that with Thor the Start Amplitude of the LFO is determined whether the "previous" one was going "up" or "down" at Keypress.
When it was going down, the next Note's Cycle starts at -100 / "the bottom". Or so it seems. Still don't get around what really happens.

If I'm understanding you, and Thor is starting at the bottom instead of the top, you simply invert the depth value in the mod matrix. As for the last paragraph you wrote, I'll have a chance to look into this in a day or so because I can't remember ever seeing the behavior you describe there.

[Benedict]

I have tried this and Thor seems to behave exactly as expected with LFO 1 Set to Key Sync & Mono ReTrig. The LFO causes Filter to rise perfectly in line with the wave image.

If however I let go of the second note with first note still held, the LFO will slip back to where it was at in the first note instead of taking that first note as a whole new trigger (which it isn't as you didn't let it go) and re-starting the LFO. Popping Little LFO in a Combi as you did does give that whole discrete new note/trigger behaviour.

This is the character of each unit. Thor is mostly designed to behave like a classic analog modular whilst many other units behave more like a digital synth. I learned many of these performance differences when I had my Casio CZ-1000 in that same studio as a Roland JX-3p. These little things could make a world of difference in a performance.

[exe135]

[Edit @ Selig] Thank you. However that wasn't exactly my issue. I am aware of the basic functionallity.

Meanwhile I have figured out (at least I think) that: Thors LFO does not reset on keypress at all when playing legato (ie next note on before previous off) if keysynced. It only resets when all notes were off, mo matter which keyboard mode is selected.

Little LFO on the other hand will reset on every note input,


(Testing is easier with an slow Sawtooth downwards, the Sine didn't make it clear to me at first and I had it turned to fast to notice properly)

Just to try to make it clear one last time (and for future visits).
Musically, what I wanted: Playing a mono Wobble Bass line (live with keyboard, not sequencer), playing legato (to make use of portamento) where every Note resets the LFO. This doesn't work with Thors LFO without Note off - that would be non legato - in between. But it works with Little LFO.

Thanks anyway for your help!

[exe135]

Yes Benedict, thanks! That comfirms it.
(Was typing at the same time)

[exe135]

I just read you post again, Benedict, I think; not even the second note resets the LFO in Thor.

These little things could make a world of difference in a performance.

This.

[exe135]

I should stop researching this

And here's the difference between LFO1 and 2 in Thor: LFO2 will never reset. with LFO1 only the 2nd note will reset(!), others will not (never going back to a note on keyboard, always release previous after next press).

[Benedict]

As I said, it is all in how each device decides to implement Note and Gate Trigger events, which aren't always handled as the same thing/event. Thor's LFO 1 is mostly deigned to be per-Voice whereas LFO 2 is Global. Thor allows for Polyphony whereas Little LFO doesn't (can't really).

No right or wrong, merely the way each handles the input. Those differences can be used to define a sound e.g. Duran Duran's "Save A Prayer" which depended on the Roland Mod Stick (abomination) to get just that modulation (which is very cool).