Comparing the Saws (of various Reason synths)

[avasopht]

I would subtract one mathematically accurate sawtooth spectrum from all samples, then the differences would be more clear to see.
I also have suspicions about lossy format of the audio file (mp3) and about low sampling rate (44100), these may affect the results.

Oh no you can't do that as has been mentioned, sawtooths with completely different waveforms can sound exactly the same by simply changing the phase of harmonics.

[orthodox]

Oh no you can't do that as has been mentioned, sawtooths with completely different waveforms can sound exactly the same by simply changing the phase of harmonics.

Yes i can, either by matching phase of the actual harmonics or simply subtract from amplitudes in frequency domain.

[tronam]

Interesting analysis, but the shape of the waveform is a very poor indicator of how it sounds.

Agreed. The sawtooth in Sylenth1 is almost a perfect sawtooth wave too, yet, when comparing it to Dune 1, which also looks quite similar, they sound differently, and Thor, which also seems to be an almost perfect saw sounds different too.

Sylenth1's saw wave is the "digitally perfect" variety, so it won't sound the same as Thor's analog oscillator which I assume is aiming for some degree of hardware emulation. Switch it to the Wavetable oscillator instead, rotate the position knob all the way to the right and remove the low pass ladder filter. They will then sound identical.

[riemac]

Interesting analysis, but the shape of the waveform is a very poor indicator of how it sounds.

Agreed. The sawtooth in Sylenth1 is almost a perfect sawtooth wave too, yet, when comparing it to Dune 1, which also looks quite similar, they sound differently, and Thor, which also seems to be an almost perfect saw sounds different too.

Sylenth1's saw wave is the "digitally perfect" variety, so it won't sound the same as Thor's analog oscillator which I assume is aiming for some degree of hardware emulation. Switch it to the Wavetable oscillator instead, rotate the position knob all the way to the right and remove the low pass ladder filter. They will then sound identical.

Yes, that is right. But in the end you won't come close with Thor to the sound of Sylenth1 because there is no possebilty to stack up 8 voices and detune them with the wavetable Osc and the filter sounds different as well.

[tronam]

Yes, that is right. But in the end you won't come close with Thor to the sound of Sylenth1 because there is no possebilty to stack up 8 voices and detune them with the wavetable Osc and the filter sounds different as well.

Not in wavetable mode, but I get close enough with the multi osc. Their filters are different, but I don't find it difficult to get a huge, wide supersaw style of sound from Thor. In general I've found that trying to get 2 synths to perfectly match each other is kind of a fruitless endeavor, so I prefer to evaluate them based on whether or not I can easily program usable sounds for my needs.

I did a quick raw comparison of a simple supersaw filter sweep between Thor and Sylenth1: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... ylenth.aif
It's not exactly night and day, at least not at the fundamental level. It does change a bit when one considers envelopes, internal FX and filter overdrive.

Here is a different demonstration using only Thor multi-osc without any effects where I gradually detune them: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... erthor.wav

I'm not trying to suggest that either of these synthesizers replaces the other, they're quite different in many ways, but I think a lot of people would be surprised by what can be coaxed out of Thor alone.

[Bonkhead]

and about low sampling rate (44100), these may affect the results.

Lol, low sample rate ?

[alex]

Here is a different demonstration using only Thor multi-osc without any effects where I gradually detune them: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... erthor.wav

I'm not trying to suggest that either of these synthesizers replaces the other, they're quite different in many ways, but I think a lot of people would be surprised by what can be coaxed out of Thor alone.

Wow, that was huge!
Did you used just one Thor?
To get wide effect out of Thor I often directly route Osc1 and Osc3 to Filter3 Left and Filter3 Right inputs respectively via mod matrix, while keeping Osc2 at the centre (one octave low or up).
I never thought to slowly increase multiosc detune amt. Cool effect indeed!

[selig]

Here is a different demonstration using only Thor multi-osc without any effects where I gradually detune them: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... erthor.wav

I'm not trying to suggest that either of these synthesizers replaces the other, they're quite different in many ways, but I think a lot of people would be surprised by what can be coaxed out of Thor alone.

Wow, that was huge!
Did you used just one Thor?
To get wide effect out of Thor I often directly route Osc1 and Osc3 to Filter3 Left and Filter3 Right inputs respectively via mod matrix, while keeping Osc2 at the centre (one octave low or up).
I never thought to slowly increase multiosc detune amt. Cool effect indeed!

Modulating detune with an envelope is even cooler IMO. I use this effect all the time to give extra umph on the attack stage.
As a side note, I really don't find that the subtle oscillator differences come across in patches in the end, especially in a mix. The only time it's even possible to really hear any difference is with no filter or filter wide open. Once you close down a LPF to any degree, the subtle waveform differences completely go away in my experience. Filters and envelopes make far more difference IMO.


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[riemac]

I did a quick raw comparison of a simple supersaw filter sweep between Thor and Sylenth1: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/614 ... ylenth.aif
It's not exactly night and day, at least not at the fundamental level. It does change a bit when one considers envelopes, internal FX and filter overdrive.

Not bad, in this comparison there is very little difference. Wouldn't have expected that.
On the other Hand I've got still Problems to get the same rolling Trance basses out of the Multi Osc from Thor. In Sylenth1 they seem to be much more punchy and clearer.

[dioxide]

Just been reading a thread on aliasing on Gearslutz. Has anyone else watched this video?

Maybe too in depth for some but I think it is relevant to this thread. I might do a few tests myself with various Reason synths. I guess all of these are running at 96khz.

[dioxide]

Thanks, rcbuse. I only included the waveforms because I found them interesting to look at and as well was surprised to see that some of the ones that sounded very close to me looked quite differently... If you are interested I can add spectrogram views as well...

D.

Thanks, but I have too many spectrograms here! I've got an upcoming RE that makes extensive use of them.

Hah, tease! Tell us more!

[riemac]

Just been reading a thread on aliasing on Gearslutz. Has anyone else watched this video?

Maybe too in depth for some but I think it is relevant to this thread. I might do a few tests myself with various Reason synths. I guess all of these are running at 96khz.

I guess, thats the reason why the spectrum analyser in Reason goes only down to -36 db. Otherwise you would see the heavy aliasing of the Reason synths like Subtractor

[dioxide]

Here's a test file I put together to do the same kind of visualisation as the YouTube video does for VSTs. To use this you will need Lectric Panda's Spektrum RE to see real detail or Rewire into some other software with a spectrum analyser. There is also a Selig Gain in front of the Spektrum, purely so I could try and match levels.
https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/ ... l-monitor/
https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/selig-gain/

The synths tested here are the ones I have as REs and the test is the same as in the YT video I posted. Note that none of these are rendered down to audio so you will need actual copies (or demos) of the REs in question to see how they perform.

Try testing the files at 44.1 (or 48khz) and 96khz as you will get better results at higher sample rates. Let me know if you find any errors in the document set up. These are all default settings and should have the filter disabled where possible. If any of these have Oversampling options they are just set to the defaults.

Reason 8.3 Song File

• Thor Analog
• Thor Wavetable
• Thor PMod
• Thor Multi
• SubTractor
• Malström
• ReDominator
• Viking
• Tres
• kHs ONE
• MonoPoly
• PolySix
• SubBoomBass
• Antidote Analog
• Antidote Digital