What can I do about DSP load?

[ilikestargazing]

Hi there! A new computer isn't happening any time soon, so I am looking for other ways to improve my system performance.
I've tried using max latency and 44.1KHz sample rate but still run into a wall. Closing all other programs, turning off wi-fi, using only one screen instead of two, lowering the refresh rate and resolution of the screen, you name it. I need a fix!

I am running Reason 9 on a 2012 macbook pro, 2.6ghz quad-core, using the internal sound card. Far from the best scenario. The issue also happened with version 7 and 8.
Would it help to get a Balance from the props? A different sound card? Something entirely different that I'm completely missing?

Help!! Thank you!

[Loque]

Bounce tracks. Lower polyphony if not needed. Set to low resolution on device if available. Use less fx (sometimes you just dont here a difference). Use build in devices before RE. Leave mastering stuff (EQ, filtering mastering at all) to a later stage. Use samples instead of synths. Route to a bus instead using individual FX. Less reverbs. Did i already mentioned bounce tracks?

[Olivier]

Good points from loque. Updating your audio interface will probably not help you.

[nater9]

I don't know how Macs work, but can you upgrade your RAM? Total PC guy here, so I apologize if this has no relevance to Mac... But, for the price of a new soundcard, you should be able to upgrade RAM.... even cheaper...

[Theo.M]

More ram will NOT help reason cpu performance in this case. That era of macbooks performs very badly with reason unfortunately. That's an ivy bridge 2.6ghz quad i7, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the power of it even today.

As you guys know i've done a lot of benchmarks over time, and my windows machine using the same processor family at yours, but 2 versions down at just 2.3 ghz, gets literally double the amount of effects and instruments that my macbook pro did. Double. Then I borrowed my sister's brand new retina 2014 2.6 quad, using the haswell processor family which is a step up from ivy bridge, and my windows laptop still got around 35% more effects and instruments! Raising the buffer doesn't help with reason on mac.

You'll get massive mileage out of that machine simply by installing bootcamp and using reason there for a start (you'll need to do some research on dpc latency and intel power saving/speed throttling).

Contrary to popular belief, mac os x is really NOT suited to real time audio applications, especially where performance is concerned. There is a massive discussion that can be had about it but i've said it all before so i will step out, but you can look up TAFKAT at gearslutz who explains it all. He invented the "dawbench" standardised audio benchmark to test cpus.

I have the demo installed on my 2015 retina 2.8ghz with 16gb ram and 1tb super fast flash.. i other words, my macbook pro is fully maxed out, there isn't a single option I could add. And still the 2.3 ghz 2012 windows laptop gets 30% moe plugins at the same buffer setting using the same interface, before cracks and pops settle in, and around 20% more plugins period.. The mac starts crackling and popping way earlier on the benchmark test than the windows machine, which cuts out when the cpu has maxed out and simply stops playing, but without crackles.
My mac is popping like crazy halfway on the way to before it cuts out

I've repeated these tests with so many macs and different OSX now that I know it's not just an anomaly anymore, and i've talked to tafkat more about it and he confirmed.

The only daw's that perform WELL on a mac with plugin count are Logic/Cubase 8+/Pro Tools 11/DP9+ and to some extent reaper. They all use large internal playback buffers to get around the mac's audio issues. And it works.

Macs have a lot going for them, and i will only ever use a mac for my serious work myself. as i love the whole workflow of the OS. My $600 win laptop is just to play no limits rollercoaster sim LOL and occasionally do audio benchmarking vs my macs.

So i will just end by stating my own true feelings on the matter. If you want to use RE's and a bunch of fx and instruments ITB on reason, in realtime, without bouncing, no mac laptop will give you "good"performance. The way the OS is designed and then the whole issue of the wildly varying processor speed will see to that. it's simply not suited to the sort of way reason works. I promise I am not making this up.

If you need help in optimising a bootcamp partition, let me know in PM and we'll take it there, and you will see, no matter if you don't like windows, how well reason performs on the very same machine.

The only way to get decent performance on OSX with reason, is to use a mac pro or imac 27" with dekstop processors. That would help a lot but still, windows will always give you better performance on the same cpu.

Many of us are happy to sacrifice performance because we love OSX.. and we do.. otherwise many of us wouldn't have macs LOL! However, before RE's, no reason devices really challenged the CPU, so it was easy to run huge projects in realtime without issue.. cause the devices *themselves* are so damn efficient. Now with RE, you are going to have to use the new bounce feature a lot (or in previous versions, bounce also but with more steps), to remove the ream time fx and instrument processing from your projects, whenever you need to. That's your only option or use windows.

(quick tip, if you install windows, install the freeware latencymon to make sure your dpc latency is under control (deferred procedure call, do some reading about i, you may need to use windows device manager to disable certain components of your mac which may cause dpc spikes, it's very easy to fix and is usually he wireless controller, which you can just re enable when you need to go on the net). Once you get the right figures in latencymon, then install throttlestop to disable your macbook's cpu changing it's clock speed.. I have done this and more than doubled my reason performance on the very same macboo using OS X). Usually just installing windows, disabling the wireless adapter and going to power management built into windows, and choosing "high performance", will give you a satisfactory working machine with regards to DAW performance.

Shit, as usual that turned out way longer than planned LOL! Some people get annoyed with my benchmark testing but i promise i am only trying to help, but will indeed step out of this topic now. To sum up, use windows or just accept it and bounce, bounce, bounce. even if you went and blew 3.5k on a top of the line current macbook, it won't make a difference with Reason.

[Skullture]

Get a machine with much more CPU power and...

[nater9]

Yep Buy once, Cry once!

[satyr32]

Bounce tracks. Lower polyphony if not needed. Set to low resolution on device if available. Use less fx (sometimes you just dont here a difference). Use build in devices before RE. Leave mastering stuff (EQ, filtering mastering at all) to a later stage. Use samples instead of synths. Route to a bus instead using individual FX. Less reverbs. Did i already mentioned bounce tracks?

This is all true. But would suck out all of the fun Reason is about.
I also made the mistake to buy the Macbook Pro with the poorest CPU at that time with 2.2 i7, it is not enough.

[Theo.M]

Bounce tracks. Lower polyphony if not needed. Set to low resolution on device if available. Use less fx (sometimes you just dont here a difference). Use build in devices before RE. Leave mastering stuff (EQ, filtering mastering at all) to a later stage. Use samples instead of synths. Route to a bus instead using individual FX. Less reverbs. Did i already mentioned bounce tracks?

This is all true. But would suck out all of the fun Reason is about.
I also made the mistake to buy the Macbook Pro with the poorest CPU at that time with 2.2 i7, it is not enough.

that's the first quad i had too, the 2011 right? My gosh that is bad with reason.. rememeber though that it's not a gutless cpu! It's that reason demands something that OSX can't give and therefore is not making anywhere near the best use of the chip. On that chip i could run 128 tracks in logic, mix of audio and instruments, with fx, and it all played back in real time. In bootcamp, reason worked great on that machine.

Already since my post I had someone PM me that they installed reason on their macbook in bootcamp and the performance is much better.. they haven't even tweaked the system yet.. so there you go.. the problem is OS X...
It *will* help as the RE sdk becomes more optimised of course (as long as devs release optimised updates), but still, os x is simply not designed to handle high cpu usage of real time audio..

Logic actually plays it back at 2048 buffer, that's how it cheats (unless you choose small which is 1024), but Normen explained it before that reason works much differently in it's live realtime engine.. I would have to find his excellent post, which explained why when you up the buffer on reason it doesn't really make a difference.

[rdiio]

Bounce tracks. Lower polyphony if not needed. Set to low resolution on device if available. Use less fx (sometimes you just dont here a difference). Use build in devices before RE. Leave mastering stuff (EQ, filtering mastering at all) to a later stage. Use samples instead of synths. Route to a bus instead using individual FX. Less reverbs. Did i already mentioned bounce tracks?

This is all true. But would suck out all of the fun Reason is about.
I also made the mistake to buy the Macbook Pro with the poorest CPU at that time with 2.2 i7, it is not enough.

that's the first quad i had too, the 2011 right? My gosh that is bad with reason.. rememeber though that it's not a gutless cpu! It's that reason demands something that OSX can't give and therefore is not making anywhere near the best use of the chip. On that chip i could run 128 tracks in logic, mix of audio and instruments, with fx, and it all played back in real time. In bootcamp, reason worked great on that machine.

Already since my post I had someone PM me that they installed reason on their macbook in bootcamp and the performance is much better.. they haven't even tweaked the system yet.. so there you go.. the problem is OS X...
It *will* help as the RE sdk becomes more optimised of course (as long as devs release optimised updates), but still, os x is simply not designed to handle high cpu usage of real time audio..

Logic actually plays it back at 2048 buffer, that's how it cheats (unless you choose small which is 1024), but Normen explained it before that reason works much differently in it's live realtime engine.. I would have to find his excellent post, which explained why when you up the buffer on reason it doesn't really make a difference.

Theo is 1000% correct....I sent him a PM earlier and as of today I installed Reason 9 on Macbook Pro Retina 13" 2014 (2.6ghz i5 8gb DDR3) Windows 10 bootcamp and the difference is MAJOR, since I'm not as experienced on windows side of things I know there are tweaks you can do to make it run even smoother. Running the same sessions and comparing them has been night and day.

14 track Reason sessions loaded with various RE's on all of the tracks

Windows 10 CPU Usage average - 22%
Mac OSX EL Captian average - 110%

Quiet honestly the performance difference is shocking to say the least, my OSX bias led me to believe that there was no way Windows would outperform my Macbook when using Reason but Theo and his research have helped me finally be able to get thru a session without all the issues I was having with the R9 beta and the official R9 release yesterday. I have been in touch with support team from Propellerhead about the DSP usage on OSX for R9 and i'm hoping this grabs there attention because they definitely need to address this issue very soon for OS X users. I doubt i'll be using OS X to run Reason either I'll be purchasing a new macbook to run Reason in bootcamp or purchasing a dedicated Windows laptop to run Reason 9

THANKS THEO!

[Theo.M]

Glad you are getting better performance, but i don't think propellerhead can actually do anything about the os x performance. any host that uses realtime buffers like that would be the same. rather email apple and tell them to improve their OS!

[gak]

The long story short is that it's ashame that companies need to constantly "fix" the plumbing. El crapitan has been painful to watch people go through regardless of the fact I'm not on mac. There seems to be no real need for it to have been so crappy for audio overall.

Anyways, it's not the doze hasn't had issues, so don't want to go all "mac/pc" but in 2016, shouldn't most of this shit be a thing of the past?

[xRwu8]

Bounce tracks. Lower polyphony if not needed. Set to low resolution on device if available. Use less fx (sometimes you just dont here a difference). Use build in devices before RE. Leave mastering stuff (EQ, filtering mastering at all) to a later stage. Use samples instead of synths. Route to a bus instead using individual FX. Less reverbs. Did i already mentioned bounce tracks?

I've been having some playback issues with DSP too. I'm triggering samples via Redrum and Dr. Octorex for my main beat. If I were to bounce each of the individual drum hits (e.g. the kick drum sample, the snare drum sample, etc) to a short audio sample, then manually place them to match up with the beat in their own Audio Tracks (and delete the Redrum/Octo devices), would that save a fair amount of DSP?

(Think I'd prefer bouncing the individual samples rather than doing a song-length bounce for each drum hit because that would keep the project size much smaller!)

[Loque]

Bounce tracks. Lower polyphony if not needed. Set to low resolution on device if available. Use less fx (sometimes you just dont here a difference). Use build in devices before RE. Leave mastering stuff (EQ, filtering mastering at all) to a later stage. Use samples instead of synths. Route to a bus instead using individual FX. Less reverbs. Did i already mentioned bounce tracks?

I've been having some playback issues with DSP too. I'm triggering samples via Redrum and Dr. Octorex for my main beat. If I were to bounce each of the individual drum hits (e.g. the kick drum sample, the snare drum sample, etc) to a short audio sample, then manually place them to match up with the beat in their own Audio Tracks (and delete the Redrum/Octo devices), would that save a fair amount of DSP?

(Think I'd prefer bouncing the individual samples rather than doing a song-length bounce for each drum hit because that would keep the project size much smaller!)

I am not sure, but playing small samples in sequencer feels faster than playing through Kong or something (no fx). And i am not sure what Reason does with lots of samples. In other DAWs i can chose to play them from RAM regardless how big they are.

But the biggest impact imo is bad fx routing and too many fx. Bouncing sucks, true, but it may be enough to do it for a heavy track.

[Yonatan]

Mac crack...guess one cannot use Duet 2 when in bootcamp mode either...?
I always wondered why I cannot use more than 8 tracks and few REs before it says my system is too slow to run.
Is it time to jump over to Win 10? Guess so...
...or a 8 track tape machine, and a decent mixer would solve it all.

Is it the same bad experience with Ableton, Studio One 3 on a Mac?

[Theo.M]

Mac crack...guess one cannot use Duet 2 when in bootcamp mode either...?
I always wondered why I cannot use more than 8 tracks and few REs before it says my system is too slow to run.
Is it time to jump over to Win 10? Guess so...
...or a 8 track tape machine, and a decent mixer would solve it all.

Is it the same bad experience with Ableton, Studio One 3 on a Mac?

ableton is quite decent performance wise, the best a realtime daw can be really, S1 on mac has very poor performance (excellent on win)

the three big ones, logic, pt and cubase are all terrific. i use pt at 32 buffer which is only activated when i record arm a track. works great.

[Yonatan]

So that Reasons efficiency with its closed system and Mac with all its media creative gimmicks are myths?
I invested in both just because these factors (as I just want to get tech wreck at a minimum), thinking the "Win-VST-supported DAWs" road would have drained the computer. But now you mean that its actually the opposite? Interesting. I do believe you, just feel quite fooled by both Mac and PH for their gimmicks, not telling the truth. Will have to rethink all and go into the BootCamp, selling off audio interface and down the road seriously consider switching the main DAW later on.

Which of the above DAWs works good with Reason ReWired?

Am quite interested in Ableton Live lately, despite its non visual approach.

[platzangst]

So that Reasons efficiency with its closed system [...] are myths?

Reason's efficiency has never really been tied to its "closed system", per se - the closed system has been a source of stability.

[Yonatan]

Yes, I understand that, but one have to suggest that a controlled closed system would give a company a better advantage in making things efficient. Same with hardware-software integration on a Mac have been their main selling point and what ppl been raving about forever. And when it comes to Reason, it has been talked a lot about its less use of CPU. But that might go back to when Reason was only a software rewire plugin without audio?
If knowing what I now know about music production and seeing where things have been moving, my common sense now says I should better have refused most RE:s aiming at Reason as a main DAW, and just sticked with the stock devices and use Reason purely as a ReWire tool, skipping one or two upgrades now and then. I have been utterly naive I can see now. Reason is great in many ways but not as a full feathered DAW in 2016. CEO even said recently that they have not enough resources. Which I read into, means they wont speed up their work. I just wished I had not gotten fooled to think Reason could become an fully alternative to any of the other DAW:s. PH kind of have given mixed messages, on one hand taking steps showing they could aim at being one of the top one solution production patforms, and at the same time given signs that they dont even themselves believe it is more than a competent creative tool for beat-makers and hobbyists. I hope I am wrong and that they will take Reason up where it could be, and stop hesitating, just determinated moving from feauture to feauture that steps up their game. And being efficient is one top feauture.
But in the meantime I am glad that there is a "Bounce in place" funktion in R) that will make the heavy RE:s at least not be totally wasted. Just have to rethink the workflow and take more careful decisions along the way. Some standard Compressor and EQing is a bit easier to print in advance, but some delays and reverbs and modulations, one wants to keep unprinted as long as possible.

[ilikestargazing]

Thank you guys for all the great input! ... get it? Badum-tsh.

Actually there is a slight but noticeable performance increase with each bump down in system settings, to the point that when I've tweaked it all the way, I'm able to play a project which wouldn't otherwise. Still we're only talking about 5-10% over-all increase, and not enough to sustain the flow. It's also worth noting that I haven't been using any third party RE's.
Also when I check the Activity Monitor (task manager in windows) I can see that Reason is only ever taking up as much as 40-50% cpu.

I prefer keeping everything open work flow and not bounce anything but I am beginning to think this is the only viable option. I might even try out the Windows option, as I am already familiar with boot-camp.

This morning I noticed that my project from last night played without issue, and even using up less cpu, and running with lower latency. Leading me to believe that maybe I just need to clean out the insides of the computer, as it may simply be filled with dust and dirt, unable to properly cool, leading to a drop in over-all system performance when it's been running for a while. I definitely need a new computer in a foreseeable future either way.

Thanks again! Gave me some things to consider

[Yonatan]

Great thread indeed. All little ways of optimizing the CPU-use is gold!

[platzangst]

And when it comes to Reason, it has been talked a lot about its less use of CPU. But that might go back to when Reason was only a software rewire plugin without audio?

Well, here's the thing: every feature that people have begged for Reason to have, contains a tradeoff. Plugins? Okay, well, to maintain stability, PH decided to have a sandboxed environment for REs. That's inherently going to add some CPU usage. People noticed an increase in CPU load way back when Reason introduced its Echo/Alligator/Pulverizer devices - which were prototype REs. But consider PH's Parsec RE, which was notable for having a very low impact on CPU. We can assume PH is making things as efficient as they can, under the circumstances, but that there are going to be limits - you can't load on all these features and not pay some kind of price, whether that's efficiency or stability or some other factor. Something always has to give, and how a program performs will depend on what factor the developers choose to favor.

[Theo.M]

So that Reasons efficiency with its closed system and Mac with all its media creative gimmicks are myths?
I invested in both just because these factors (as I just want to get tech wreck at a minimum), thinking the "Win-VST-supported DAWs" road would have drained the computer. But now you mean that its actually the opposite? Interesting. I do believe you, just feel quite fooled by both Mac and PH for their gimmicks, not telling the truth. Will have to rethink all and go into the BootCamp, selling off audio interface and down the road seriously consider switching the main DAW later on.

Which of the above DAWs works good with Reason ReWired?

Am quite interested in Ableton Live lately, despite its non visual approach.

of course not... it was the most efficient daw on the planet until RE introduction. I am sure they don't still claim it's the most efficient when using RE's?

For me to speak out against mac performance, and being an avid mac user, well, i'm being honest believe me. And i would only use a mac cause i happen to hate using windows. But macs do not perform as well as windows using daw software, simple as that. There are some daws that try to circumvent the issue using internal high playback buffers and shuffling monitored tracks onto the live buffer chosen in audio prefs and the rest onto a high internal playback one. This is the only way to get around it.

Pro tools, Ableton, Logic and Cubase all work fantastic with reason rewire. It's very very simple to set up. You can still control the transport and do all your midi in reason, then send stuff to the rewire master in stems, in realtime, so they all have their own channel for vst fx processing in the rewire master. Note, all rewire gets shuffled onto one core, but the others will be available for you to do whatever you want in your rewire master, like use vst instruments for example.

[Yonatan]

Million thanks to you Theo, for being honest and truthful, and for sharing your experience and knowing. It helps alot!
Will try both ReWire and BootCamp down the road and good to know that I can ask here if I get lost with it.
In the meantime I will see how far I can go with "Bounce to track" in my workflow.
Reason is my favourite DAW to use, but now I also know more about ways to expand the production arsenal.

[Marco Raaphorst]

I am using a MacBook Pro retina late 2013. I notice that some PC's with Windows 7 are even loading Reason faster than on my machine.

For years I have been active on the Ableton forum. For years the PC's were faster. I haven't really checked this carefully on Reason but I notice in general a huge performance difference between Ableton and Reason. Mostly when using my guitar. Ableton is capable of lower latency. Grafics have something to do with it, grafics in Reason. Maybe there's something going on which isn't right. Noticed how during the live sessions on Facebook Mattias was having serious trouble with audio clicks. And to prevent this he needed to stop scrolling! Well, this is WEIRD. Grafics should always have less priority over audio. Btw you can run Reason in non-Retina mode on OSX. It looks awfull I must say but might save you from glitches. Might try this myself.

Can't we arrange a performance test? I am on El Capitan btw. And I am not so impressed by it. But the whole experience is a whole lot better than Windows imo. The UX, but performance? Might be something else.