Possible "coloration" of SSL mixer vs. 14:2 mixer?

[selig]

I do not insist on what is heard, or it gives the color. (Color - EQ.)
But it exists. I can not ignore this fact.

WHAT exists? if you're talking about your null test, then maybe all that exists is a delay.

If there is no coloration, then let's move on from this thread just to keep things tidy, since that's the subject being discussed here and we seem to have concluded there is no coloration.

Again, start a new thread if you wish to further explore your findings.

I did not make the null test. This is just the gain +165,2dB.
Master volume is 0. Init patch.

Please start a new thread on this subject if you wish to continue discussing it.

I'm not trying to convince anyone.
If you believe that my ideas just need to isolate, I just stop talking about it.

No need to stop talking, but you have moved on from the original topic of this thread and keep posting, so I'm guessing you have more to say on the issue.

To create a useful forum we not only want to think about the present but also the future. Finding posts at a later date is easier when they are contained in threads that relate to the subject of the post.

This is too small a thing for the new theme. I have nothing more to add.

Reason mixers added gates, and Re mxiers does not add gates.
That's all I wanted to say. This applies exclusively to this topic.
I take a break and come back in an indefinite time.

Wish I could confirm or deny your claims, but I have no idea how to do so. Not sure how the mixers could possibly "add" gates since they have no gate input and can pass audio signals recorded from microphones (don't know where the gates would be coming from in those cases).
But I now better understand that your point IS about the Reason mixers - just didn't see any in your last screen shot and made an incorrect assumption - apologies for that! Carry on…

[chimp_spanner]

I do not insist on what is heard, or it gives the color. (Color - EQ.)
But it exists. I can not ignore this fact.

Why can't you ignore it though? I'm not even saying it definitely doesn't exist but I did the most basic test I could and could find no evidence of anything untoward. If you're having to try very specific things to reveal the problem, then it's possible that the nature of the test itself is at fault. *Or* the steps taken are so specific and unmusical (as in something you will never do in the context of a musical production) that the results are largely irrelevant.

If you're finding that your mixes are suffering as a result, that's another problem. But I don't think that's the case. And if the 14:2 mixer has a problem...replace it with mixer channels. Disable auto grouping and build yourself a 14 channel SSL template with 4 FX buses and be done with it. It's actually a really cool way of working. I tried it the other day and my project was instantly tidier. But that's another subject

Not having a go btw - it just seems that this is a lot of time to spend worrying about something entirely academic. Life is short man, make music!

[8cros]

I do not insist on what is heard, or it gives the color. (Color - EQ.)
But it exists. I can not ignore this fact.

Why can't you ignore it though? I'm not even saying it definitely doesn't exist but I did the most basic test I could and could find no evidence of anything untoward. If you're having to try very specific things to reveal the problem, then it's possible that the nature of the test itself is at fault. *Or* the steps taken are so specific and unmusical (as in something you will never do in the context of a musical production) that the results are largely irrelevant.

If you're finding that your mixes are suffering as a result, that's another problem. But I don't think that's the case. And if the 14:2 mixer has a problem...replace it with mixer channels. Disable auto grouping and build yourself a 14 channel SSL template with 4 FX buses and be done with it. It's actually a really cool way of working. I tried it the other day and my project was instantly tidier. But that's another subject

Not having a go btw - it just seems that this is a lot of time to spend worrying about something entirely academic. Life is short man, make music!

Specificity of work in Reason's is combining.
We have a limitation in the number of construction units, and often have to look for devices "dual-use" or bugs.
I do not care how it is heard in the mix. Because I am aware that it is can not be heard.

I am wondering whether there is an error or whether there is a benefit from these things. It exists or not. If it's there, I can use it in some unique and rare situations.
You can carefully reconsider my screenshots on this page and repeat it, if you're interested.

[Stranger.]

...we seem to have concluded there is no coloration.

Um,actually no,nothing has been concluded dude.
Btw,who is the "we" that you refer to? No other results,other than 8cros (which i find interesting but his point seems lost in your translation) + WongoTheSane's were shown here that i see??
If 1 fuzz measure is all you do,then i would say more needs to be done.
Like-- using multiple tools to measure,and measuring all sampling rates-- have you done that yet selig? curious to your responses.
Ty.

[selig]

...we seem to have concluded there is no coloration.

Um,actually no,nothing has been concluded dude.
Btw,who is the "we" that you refer to? No other results,other than 8cros (which i find interesting but his point seems lost in your translation) + WongoTheSane's were shown here that i see??
If 1 fuzz measure is all you do,then i would say more needs to be done.
Like-- using multiple tools to measure,and measuring all sampling rates-- have you done that yet selig? curious to your responses.
Ty.

Sorry, what I should have said is that I'm as confident as I've always been that there's no coloration, a conclusion I've drawn from years of listening and testing the system repeatedly using many different methods. I'm going back to making music - last one out of the lab be sure to turn the lights out please.



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[Stranger.]

turn the lights out please.

Lolz.K. =off

[8cros]

turn the lights out please.

Lolz.K. =off

I just do not want to do the project with a demonstration.
But I have no idea where the mixer can take cv signal.
Did no one repeated these steps?

What still needs evidence? I think in the four pictures, everything is obvious.

[orthodox]

Here's another null test, for those who still think there's a "coloration". This time the difference is -146 dB -- less than the Float32 ULP.

P.S. The difference can be made even lower, I think, about -300 dB.

[8cros]

I'm afraid that even when I do this project it will be ignored, as well as my recent screenshots.
A project creation takes one day. I do not want to waste it in vain. I can already see that the latest information about coloring the sound in mixer has remained unheeded.

[8cros]

Here's another null test, for those who still think there's a "coloration". This time the difference is -146 dB -- less than the Float32 ULP.

P.S. The difference can be made even lower, I think, about -300 dB.

Comparison is the simplest thing can come up with.
You a fourth who made the same test.
Do you have any other methods?

[chimp_spanner]

I'm afraid that even when I do this project it will be ignored, as well as my recent screenshots.
A project creation takes one day. I do not want to waste it in vain. I can already see that the latest information about coloring the sound in mixer has remained unheeded.

Man the old PUF vibes are strong here! I downloaded the last project and honestly, I have no idea what's going on. Why are there RV7000s? Why is there a Compressor? Why is there a Dr Octorex that isn't making any sound? Is this a 9 page troll?

As others have said, if you do a null test between an SSL channel, and a 6:2 or 14:2 there is no (meaningful, audible) difference (detectable by normal or reasonable means). That's really all anyone here needs to know. If you set out to "break" Reason by boosting things by 1000dB, or patching things through a bunch of different devices and then measuring this channel or that channel you might well find "something". Whether it's WORTH finding, is another matter. I appreciate the spirit of discovery in Reason. Finding things that have unexpected musical (or non-musical) results. But I don't think this is that. The setup in this project is nothing that would ever exist in a musical context.

And look at it this way; no two sounds will ever be PERCEIVED identically, even if they are digitally identical. Because the environmental conditions surrounding the listener are not the same from one moment to the next. That statement is "true". But it has no practical application, other than to render the quest for pure, uncoloured sound, completely irrelevant

So my personal opinion - my advice - is not to spend a day making a project to prove that if you try to break something, it will break. But instead use that day making something great, in the way that works best for you.

[orthodox]

Do you have any other methods?

I present a proof that 14:2 does nothing except gain. Why would I need other methods if the present one does the job?

[selig]

Do you have any other methods?

I present a proof that 14:2 does nothing except gain. Why would I need other methods if the present one does the job?

Between us we have presented many different methods of proving no coloration. Not much more we can do.


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[8cros]

I'm afraid that even when I do this project it will be ignored, as well as my recent screenshots.
A project creation takes one day. I do not want to waste it in vain. I can already see that the latest information about coloring the sound in mixer has remained unheeded.

Man the old PUF vibes are strong here! I downloaded the last project and honestly, I have no idea what's going on. Why are there RV7000s? Why is there a Compressor? Why is there a Dr Octorex that isn't making any sound? Is this a 9 page troll?

As others have said, if you do a null test between an SSL channel, and a 6:2 or 14:2 there is no (meaningful, audible) difference (detectable by normal or reasonable means). That's really all anyone here needs to know. If you set out to "break" Reason by boosting things by 1000dB, or patching things through a bunch of different devices and then measuring this channel or that channel you might well find "something". Whether it's WORTH finding, is another matter. I appreciate the spirit of discovery in Reason. Finding things that have unexpected musical (or non-musical) results. But I don't think this is that. The setup in this project is nothing that would ever exist in a musical context.

And look at it this way; no two sounds will ever be PERCEIVED identically, even if they are digitally identical. Because the environmental conditions surrounding the listener are not the same from one moment to the next. That statement is "true". But it has no practical application, other than to render the quest for pure, uncoloured sound, completely irrelevant

So my personal opinion - my advice - is not to spend a day making a project to prove that if you try to break something, it will break. But instead use that day making something great, in the way that works best for you.

You look older project.
I do not propose to make quick decisions, and once again look closely at thread.

[8cros]

Do you have any other methods?

I present a proof that 14:2 does nothing except gain. Why would I need other methods if the present one does the job?

Did not I agree?
You are absolutely right, all the null tests - successful.
This is all that you wanted to do?

[chimp_spanner]

Do you have any other methods?

I present a proof that 14:2 does nothing except gain. Why would I need other methods if the present one does the job?

Did not I agree?
You are absolutely right, all the null tests - successful.
This is all that you wanted to do?

A successful null test means phase cancellation.

Phase cancellation cannot occur unless both signals are identical.

Therefore a successful null test would indicate that there is no difference between the sound.

*Edit: so I did my own test, and I placed two screams in the insert section of the master bus with the distortion turned up to full. The meters do move. If you place 4 Screams, you can hear the loop (I used a Dr Rex).

I still maintain this doesn't necessarily mean anything, in real terms. Because I am literally never, ever going to use four screams turned up to max, in series. It might be the Spider not delivering the audio to all of its outputs at the exact same instant? Who knows.

For all intents and purposes, the null test is succesful. I will grant that there is something causing the audio to come through, and perhaps someone with more knowledge than me can explain what that is.

[chimp_spanner]

*Quoted myself by accident!

[orthodox]

Do you have any other methods?

I present a proof that 14:2 does nothing except gain. Why would I need other methods if the present one does the job?

Did not I agree?
You are absolutely right, all the null tests - successful.
This is all that you wanted to do?

If you agree the null test is passed, what can you make out of this null?
Or how are you going to color that fact?

[8cros]

Therefore a successful null test would indicate that there is no difference between the sound.

And here there is a mistake.
The test does not notice some features of Reason.
Therefore, there is a chance to make a mistake, even on such a reliable and solid test.

[chimp_spanner]

Okay here's the setup - and I have NO idea why I'm entertaining this at past midnight on a Saturday I have friends. Honest.

1) Audio file on an audio track
2) Create parallel channel
3) Add 6:2 or 14:2 mixer as an insert
4) Invert phase on the parallel channel
5) Add a Scream and turn Distortion to max
6) Add a Scream and turn Distortion to max
7) Add a Scream and turn Distortion to max
8) Add a Scream and turn Distortion to max

Yes. You can hear a sound now (it is kind of phased/watery). No, I don't know why. If you insert Selig's Gain RE, there is total silence, even with eight Screams at maximum. I think it's far more likely that there is a very short delay in the mixer than a "colouration". I'm sure there are ways to test but, I don't really want to haha.

So yes, there is technically speaking, a "difference" in the sound. Much in the way that there is a difference in a picture if you look at it twice because its atoms have jostled around a bit It's technically/objectively different, but subjectively the same.

I maintain that the difference is negligible. I will say it's a mildly interesting discovery, at best. But not one that I believe could be utilised in a meaningful or musical way. Certainly not one that would cause a problem.

[orthodox]

Therefore a successful null test would indicate that there is no difference between the sound.

And here there is a mistake.
The test does not notice some features of Reason.

This is an empty talk until you name those magic features.

Therefore, there is a chance to make a mistake, even on such a reliable and solid test.

Please explain how a null can mean anything else than exact sameness of the signals, whatever mistake is made when that null was obtained.

[8cros]

Therefore a successful null test would indicate that there is no difference between the sound.

And here there is a mistake.
The test does not notice some features of Reason.

This is an empty talk until you name those magic features.

Therefore, there is a chance to make a mistake, even on such a reliable and solid test.

Please explain how a null can mean anything else than exact sameness of the signals, whatever mistake is made when that null was obtained.

Magic features are ordinary bugs.
Which appears in some Reason devices.
This is not a usual case, and all the standard devices to be infected with.
Therefore, to assess the extent of the disaster, we need to know reference point.
This reference point can only be third-party products.

[orthodox]

Magic features are ordinary bugs.
Which appears in some Reason devices.
This is not a usual case, and all the standard devices to be infected with.
Therefore, to assess the extent of the disaster, we need to know reference point.
This reference point can only serve as third-party products.

Congrats! You have just made an admission that all devices in Reason color the sound in the same way so they null against each other .

All right, this can be tested as well. What third party product do you trust to be used as a reference point?

Edit: I can null a 14:2 with SSL mixer ONLY, without any other devices. Or is the SSL buggy too?

[8cros]

Magic features are ordinary bugs.
Which appears in some Reason devices.
This is not a usual case, and all the standard devices to be infected with.
Therefore, to assess the extent of the disaster, we need to know reference point.
This reference point can only serve as third-party products.

Congrats! You have just made an admission that all devices in Reason color the sound in the same way so they null against each other .

All right, this can be tested as well. What third party product do you trust to be used as a reference point?

Any RE course.
But to see it you need a criterion.
That is the key.
But I think you have already found the portal.

[orthodox]

Do we trust the SSL mixer? Since almost everything is passed through that, everything is compromised if the SSL is.