Possible "coloration" of SSL mixer vs. 14:2 mixer?

[8cros]

Do we trust the SSL mixer? Since almost everything is passed through that, everything is compromised if the SSL is.

I think that any answer only create more problems.
I'm not ready to answer.

[orthodox]

Do we trust the SSL mixer? Since almost everything is passed through that, everything is compromised if the SSL is.

I think that any answer only create more problems.
I'm not ready to answer.

Still you are ready to make unsubstantiated claims.

But I think you have already found the portal.

By the way, what was that shit supposed to mean? Is that portal the thing that somehow validates all the points you have made?

[selig]

Do we trust the SSL mixer? Since almost everything is passed through that, everything is compromised if the SSL is.

I think that any answer only create more problems.
I'm not ready to answer.

I'm not even sure I have half a clue what you guys are talking about! Sounds very cryptic and esoteric to me. I'm definitely out of my depth here….


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[8cros]

Do we trust the SSL mixer? Since almost everything is passed through that, everything is compromised if the SSL is.

I think that any answer only create more problems.
I'm not ready to answer.

Still you are ready to make unsubstantiated claims.

But I think you have already found the portal.

By the way, what was that shit supposed to mean? Is that portal the thing that somehow validates all the points you have made?

You want to torture me, or yourself to explore new information?
My claim absolutely reliably substantiated. (see. Fig. 1,2,3,4.)

[Trancit]

Sorry for this, I know, I am quite new here but a short question:

If nobody is able to hear any difference and can just be measured in controversial and not meaningful tests... who cares????

Seriously, music is made for hearing and most delivery formats customers receive, adds tons of coloration/artefacts to the file, who cares if there is something (if so) at e.g. -60db, which is probably added by the mixer... and I really doubt, that anybody on this earth could stand a blind tests of a full mix on this topic other than by accident...

Just my 0.002$

[chimp_spanner]

Again...I don't know why I'm even entertaining this. But alright, let's indulge in the spirit of exploration and experimentation. Please download and open the included project.

The "control" channel is a Subtractor running through an SSL strip direct to the outputs. All other channels have been bussed and pushed through 10 - count em, 10 - compressors. I tried using other devices to boost the gain (Thor, Maximiser with Input/Output on full and limiter off to avoid additional colouration) but only the Compressor worked.

Bar 1: Dry signal
Bar 2: Phase inv. (complete silence)
Bar 3: Phase inv. + 14:2 (there is some sound)
Bar 4: Phase inv. + Spider (complete silence)
Bar 5: Phase inv. + MClass EQ (complete silence)
Bars 6-9: Alternating between dry, and phase inv. + 14:2

Findings:

1) Total phase inversion is possible in Reason
2) Total phase inversion is *not* achieved using the 14:2 mixer, but requires +118dB to be heard
3) Other stock devices (such as Spider and MClass) allow for a totally neutral pass-through of signal
4) There is a slight tonal difference between the dry signal, and the phase inverted signal going through the 14:2

Conclusion:

There's something about the 14:2 that causes some signal to come through, but it's impossible to say what. My gut feeling is that the 14:2 introduces a very small amount of delay, and the compressors are flattening out the frequencies and creating the 'illusion' of a different/bassier tone. I suspect that if it were possible to add this amount of gain without using compressors, the resulting sound would be thinner than the dry signal, indicating a simple delay in the signal (right?). The absence of signal in the other setups seems to indicate that complete phase cancellation is possible. OR...that there's some kind of minimum threshold under which signals are ignored/gated/otherwise lost. Either way, we're not losing anything significant here.

That's about as far as I'm willing to go I think it's safe to say that whatever is going on here, it's definitely not going to have any measurable impact on your mixes. And the "discovery" has no real musical application, other than that it sounded kind of cool and phasery when the compressors were Screams instead. But that's about it.

Have fun with the project and like I said, if anyone can boost the signal without compressing, have at it.

[chimp_spanner]

Sorry for this, I know, I am quite new here but a short question:

If nobody is able to hear any difference and can just be measured in controversial and not meaningful tests... who cares????

Seriously, music is made for hearing and most delivery formats customers receive, adds tons of coloration/artefacts to the file, who cares if there is something (if so) at e.g. -60db, which is probably added by the mixer... and I really doubt, that anybody on this earth could stand a blind tests of a full mix on this topic other than by accident...

Just my 0.002$

Totally agree. This is my opinion also, although at this point I'm kind of playing along just to see where it goes. 10 pages on (almost) nothing

Musicians can be a funny bunch...

[submonsterz]

Sorry for this, I know, I am quite new here but a short question:

If nobody is able to hear any difference and can just be measured in controversial and not meaningful tests... who cares????

Seriously, music is made for hearing and most delivery formats customers receive, adds tons of coloration/artefacts to the file, who cares if there is something (if so) at e.g. -60db, which is probably added by the mixer... and I really doubt, that anybody on this earth could stand a blind tests of a full mix on this topic other than by accident...

Just my 0.002$

Totally agree. This is my opinion also, although at this point I'm kind of playing along just to see where it goes. 10 pages on (almost) nothing

Musicians can be a funny bunch...

Ok im going to entertain you and other people that say it does not matter .
Heres a scenerio and a question to go alng with it.
Ok outside of reason in other applications that work with noise floors way lower than reasons floor these abnomillys that are being seen could be where people see colour or noise or delay etc.
Ok now unless you are going to say tools such as izotope and soundforge are completely crap and dont work etc these are showing up.
Now we ask ok in reason does anything it will not show below the noise floor going to actually MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. Well if it shows in other tools without added gain and in reason by adding gain to raise what is under reasons noise foor . Is this actually robbing headroom in any way. I ask this and you should to as many people ask how to get mixes as good as other softwares out there and as clean . And why cant i get base as good in reason as other daws etc etc.
Well depending on the answer to that could explain the difficultys others have getting out of the box sound as easy as else where .
So question to yourselves is does it matter or not do these abnomillies actually affect what you have to work with in reason and add to the work involved getting things right and as clean as elsewhere ?.
Does it ? I have no idea at present as im looking at many things at once and in a minefield looking for an answer to it all.
But it seems to effect how outside programes seem to work with the routed or bounced audio by including the abnormities if you are working with one that works way beyond reasons noise floor .
So until someone gives the definitive answer does it matter and why it does not then i dont think going deeper like people have can be ruled out until then.

[orthodox]

There's something about the 14:2 that causes some signal to come through, but it's impossible to say what. My gut feeling is that the 14:2 introduces a very small amount of delay

There cannot be any delay. If there was any, it could be easily detected with waveforms of sample_rate/2, sample_rate/3 frequency.

Some signal not cancelled out by phase inversion is due to the gain factor of the 14:2 not exactly equal to 1.000000. It can be verified as well by applying additional calibrated gain in order to compensate for that 14:2 inaccuracy. This way, the difference between signals can be reduced from -110dB to -146dB, which also proves that the difference is exactly proportional to the original and has no coloring.

[chimp_spanner]

There's something about the 14:2 that causes some signal to come through, but it's impossible to say what. My gut feeling is that the 14:2 introduces a very small amount of delay

There cannot be any delay. If there was any, it could be easily detected with waveforms of sample_rate/2, sample_rate/3 frequency.

Some signal not cancelled out by phase inversion is due to the gain factor of the 14:2 not exactly equal to 1.000000. It can be verified as well by applying additional calibrated gain in order to compensate for that 14:2 inaccuracy. This way, the difference between signals can be reduced from -110dB to -146dB, which also proves that the difference is exactly proportional to the original and has no coloring.

That's some good info man! Thank you

[Stranger.]

Did no one repeated these steps?

What still needs evidence? I think in the four pictures, everything is obvious.

8cros-i cannot look at your files at this time,but i would-- you have discovered what i suspected for a long time also.Your comments are not ignored here.
Please- will you perform 1 more test using the new rv7000 device if you have that?
Does that new device give your perceived "gate signal" also?

Your result will lead to my own personal conclusion and summary of findings to date.Ty.

@ chimp_spanner + op- please tag along,this thread is actually going to serve everybody in the longer run.
I only want the very best for all users.
It may appear to be critical for future reference and 'possible adjustments' that could be made.

[selig]

Did no one repeated these steps?

What still needs evidence? I think in the four pictures, everything is obvious.

8cros-i cannot look at your files at this time,but i would-- you have discovered what i suspected for a long time also.Your comments are not ignored here.
Please- will you perform 1 more test using the new rv7000 device if you have that?
Does that new device give your perceived "gate signal" also?

Your result will lead to my own personal conclusion and summary of findings to date.Ty.

@ chimp_spanner + op- please tag along,this thread is actually going to serve everybody in the longer run.
I only want the very best for all users.
It may appear to be critical for future reference and 'possible adjustments' that could be made.

Would you mind indulging me and summarizing what 8cros discovered in as simple a manner as possible (you seem to understand it better than me)? I've not been able to distill all he has posted down into a single simple description (I'm trying to follow many different paths in this thread…). I'm hoping I'm just being dense and missing something simple here.


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[chimp_spanner]

Ok im going to entertain you and other people that say it does not matter .
Heres a scenerio and a question to go alng with it.
Ok outside of reason in other applications that work with noise floors way lower than reasons floor these abnomillys that are being seen could be where people see colour or noise or delay etc.
Ok now unless you are going to say tools such as izotope and soundforge are completely crap and dont work etc these are showing up.
Now we ask ok in reason does anything it will not show below the noise floor going to actually MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. Well if it shows in other tools without added gain and in reason by adding gain to raise what is under reasons noise foor . Is this actually robbing headroom in any way. I ask this and you should to as many people ask how to get mixes as good as other softwares out there and as clean . And why cant i get base as good in reason as other daws etc etc.
Well depending on the answer to that could explain the difficultys others have getting out of the box sound as easy as else where .
So question to yourselves is does it matter or not do these abnomillies actually affect what you have to work with in reason and add to the work involved getting things right and as clean as elsewhere ?.
Does it ? I have no idea at present as im looking at many things at once and in a minefield looking for an answer to it all.
But it seems to effect how outside programes seem to work with the routed or bounced audio by including the abnormities if you are working with one that works way beyond reasons noise floor .
So until someone gives the definitive answer does it matter and why it does not then i dont think going deeper like people have can be ruled out until then.

Hey sorry man maybe my comment came across as a bit disrespectful/dismissive. Not my intent. I get that this is something that people are interested in, and that's cool. I guess we just disagree on the impact of this "finding".

My point is that given the extraordinary lengths you have to go to to detect the difference in sound between 14:2 and SSL (which according to @Orthodox is actually explained by a level discrepancy and nothing more), then I think it's safe/reasonable to say that no-one is seeing/hearing/detecting this difference, even if they say they are; it's placebo. Whatever is going on that I have to boost by over 100dB to hear it, I'm preeeety sure that no-one is "hearing" it, however much of an audiophile they might be. I think maybe because they're looking for it, they're finding it in their own perception of the sound? Like if someone says "this track was mastered through analogue gear" people will swear blind that it's fatter and warmer. But I don't think there's any more to it than that.

Again this is kind of going back to the old PUF "Reason sound" argument, which I believe has been pretty well debunked. In my experience/opinion/whatever, there is no Reason sound (any more than there is a Cubase or Logic sound). Maybe internally they each handle things in a specific way but there's certainly nothing that gets in the way of my mix. I use Cubase 8.5, and Reason 9. Most people I know are preferring my Reason mixes. Especially the low end! So, go figure I work with it, I sound design with it and as far as I'm concerned, it's all working as it should.

So my reasoning for why it shouldn't matter is anecdotal/personal, sure. In the sense that I'm writing and submitting music to a range of clients and not once has anyone said "hmm it sounds like you didn't have enough headroom in this mix" or "the bass is a bit crap". Like I said, if anything, people are preferring Reason's sound, before I even tell them what was used.

Anyway. That's just my take on it. If 8cros could maybe condense his theory and finding down into something a little more understandable, it would help. But atm all I can tell for sure is, I have encountered no problems. And certainly none caused by 14:2. And hey if I did...I'd just stop using 14:2 haha.

[Stranger.]

.. I'm hoping I'm just being dense and missing something simple here.

^Perhaps..
Here's a short video interlude> turn speakers up,just a little bit.

[selig]

.. I'm hoping I'm just being dense and missing something simple here.

^Perhaps..
Here's a short video interlude> turn speakers up,just a little bit.

Nice!


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[normen]

I am only using Apples Numbers to do my spreadsheets now. The results of the addition are much more pleasing. It just has more warmth than Excel, its got the new analog-modeled computation engine.

[jonheal]

I am only using Apples Numbers to do my spreadsheets now. The results of the addition are much more pleasing. It just has more warmth than Excel, its got the new analog-modeled computation engine.

Clearly, you are not familiar with the 256-bit float, quadruple-oversampled, quantum bit-prediction computation engine Microsoft has included with Excel in Office 2016. If you think two plus two simply equals four, you're still living in a cave, bludgeoning your dinner with a rock tied on the end of a stick.

[selig]

I am only using Apples Numbers to do my spreadsheets now. The results of the addition are much more pleasing. It just has more warmth than Excel, its got the new analog-modeled computation engine.

Clearly, you are not familiar with the 256-bit float, quadruple-oversampled, quantum bit-prediction computation engine Microsoft has included with Excel in Office 2016. If you think two plus two simply equals four, you're still living in a cave, bludgeoning your dinner with a rock tied on the end of a stick,

2+2=4, unless you add a million million to it (then subtract it). Half kidding , but also serious. There IS a point where you WILL run out of resolution. We typically don't EVER see it in the real world, but if you want to do so, you can suggest an extreme example where this will happen. Not sure what the point would be since we are already aware there ARE limits to everything - right?



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[Marco Raaphorst]

How come that after the phase cancelation my brain still hurts?

[orthodox]

How come that after the phase cancelation my brain still hurts?

Brain cells introduce a small delay. Just wait a bit and the pain is gone away.

[Marco Raaphorst]

Yes thanks. Pain is already on -44 Db at the moment.

[8cros]

8cros-я не могу смотреть на ваши файлы в это время, но я would-- вы обнаружили , </font><font>что я подозревал в </font><font>течение долгого времени also.

The first picture shows the bug in Sbtractor.

Fig1.
To audio out is mixed CV in.





Continued ...

[selig]

8cros-я не могу смотреть на ваши файлы в это время, но я would-- вы обнаружили , </font><font>что я подозревал в </font><font>течение долгого времени also.

The first picture shows the bug in Sbtraktor.

Fig1.
To audio out is mixed CV in.





Continued ...

I replicated this setup and did not see any issues whatsoever. Maybe you could give a few more details?


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[8cros]

The second drawing.

Fig 2.
Mixer 6: 2 amplifies the incoming signal.

Continued ...

[selig]

The second drawing.

Fig 2. Mixer 6: 2 amplifies the incoming signal.

Continued ...

Also not seeing that when I replicated this setup. No amplification whatsoever.


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