Page 1 of 2
Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 17 Aug 2020
by Jagwah
Detecting the pitch of kicks not a simple task as far as I can tell. However, having your kick tuned to a specific note allows you to keep your kick in key with your track, and well known electronic musicians can be quoted saying the kick's tuning is of great importance, the latest notable one was Armin van Buuren.
If you have a method for detecting the pitch of a kick from a sound bank or anywhere, please do share your methods or at least mention them. One issue I tend to have is how the pitch of a kick tends to bend down or roll down, you can literally see the fundamental frequency moving quite easily in an analyzer - finding the pitch there seems literally impossible.
Another way we could look at this is to all look at the same kick. The TR-808 (short) kick seems pretty solid frequency wise, compared to the TR-909 (short) kick where you can really see the fundamental frequency rolling around right where you would want to find the pitch. Anyone want to try and detect the pitches of these two, and kindly share your methods? Do I need to share samples?
Any opinions on creating your own kicks instead of finding random ones and how this could better help with tuning?
Cheers!
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by Chizmata
id say a kick has 2 fundamental frequencies:
1. the one its moving towards and that will stay sustained, which is the deeper, subby aspect of the kick and probably more important in terms of harmony
2. the one it starts from, which brings the higher, punchy aspect to the kick.
if you want the kick to be completely in tune with the track, these 2 frequencies have to be in tune with each other, meaning part of the same ladder the track uses.
as for methods how to find out the tuning, i can only say: "use your ears". but if a kick will not fit into the track no matter what, it might be that the two kick frequencies have an interval that will make either the one or the other part out of tune with the rest.
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by selig
IMO the simplest method is to raise the pitch an octave so it can be more easily heard. But even then, there is not always doing to be a clear pitch center - some drum samples just don't have a solid/perfect fundamental harmonic. Others, even real samples, have a bit of bend in the pitch, so you kinda have to go by ear even if you know the start and end pitch.
There is another solution, which is to take a different course. When layering your kicks, don't use a sample for the fundamental pitch - use an oscillator instead. That way you have total control over the pitch (and the bend amount, if desired). So the idea is to use samples for the attack/high end component of the kick, but to generate the fundamental pitch component yourself. That way you absolutely know the pitch of the kick!
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by chaosroyale
This is another one of those pieces of advice like "hi-pass everything" that producers give when they only make one very narrow kind of music.
D'n'B, Breakcore, Industrial, Hip Hop, IDM, Big Beat, Old school Rave, Classic House and Techno, none of that relies on "tuned" kicks, unless the kick is being used very intentionally as a bassline.
The attack, decay, tone color, ambience or lack thereof, of the kick is much more important. Obviously, kicks are tuned up or down to make them sound good and sit in the track, but not in a simplistic sense of "this track is in A so the kick must also be in A".
If it works for one particular artist in his or her style, great, but it is not any kind of universal advice. I would really suggest you get into plugging in various different kicks into a track, then having some fun with the EQ and compression (and tuning, to an extent, sure) to see what gives you a feel that you like. I think you'll get more results more quickly that way.
Jagwah wrote: ↑17 Aug 2020
Detecting the pitch of kicks not a simple task as far as I can tell. However, having your kick tuned to a specific note allows you to keep your kick in key with your track, and well known electronic musicians can be quoted saying the kick's tuning is of great importance, the latest notable one was Armin van Buuren.
If you have a method for detecting the pitch of a kick from a sound bank or anywhere, please do share your methods or at least mention them. One issue I tend to have is how the pitch of a kick tends to bend down or roll down, you can literally see the fundamental frequency moving quite easily in an analyzer - finding the pitch there seems literally impossible.
Another way we could look at this is to all look at the same kick. The TR-808 (short) kick seems pretty solid frequency wise, compared to the TR-909 (short) kick where you can really see the fundamental frequency rolling around right where you would want to find the pitch. Anyone want to try and detect the pitches of these two, and kindly share your methods? Do I need to share samples?
Any opinions on creating your own kicks instead of finding random ones and how this could better help with tuning?
Cheers!
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by BRIGGS
Why don't you drop your samples into Grain?
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by chrischrischris
I remember Ricky Romeros Kick Synth has a good three or four point analyser.
It shows the click and then at least another two pitches.
You can load your own samples. It’s quite deep but basic. Like Kongs kick creation on acid.
Worth a try if you can get a demo or it’s cheap somewhere.
I do most things by ear but that won’t work for everyone.
Chris
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by nooomy
BRIGGS wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
Why don't you drop your samples into Grain?
It dosen't work on drums. Try dropping a known tuned drum like Bd_hatrick_A. It will tell you its a F# completely wrong!
I have been learning to tune drums for a couple of months now and this is the best way i found to do it.
I can find the pitch of most of drum sound in about 2 min. Tell me a drum sample in Factory sound bank and i will tell you its pitch/tune.
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by Heigen5
BRIGGS wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
Why don't you drop your samples into Grain?
Auto key-transfer would detect the root-key indeed and the oscillator layer to confirm by checking it. Yup!
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by nooomy
Heigen5 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
BRIGGS wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
Why don't you drop your samples into Grain?
Auto key-transfer would detect the root-key indeed and the oscillator layer to confirm by checking it. Yup!
No it doesn’t detect the correct pitch. Try it yourself with a known tuned kick drum like Bd_hatrick_A, it will tell it’s f#
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by Heigen5
nooomy wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
Heigen5 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
Auto key-transfer would detect the root-key indeed and the oscillator layer to confirm by checking it. Yup!
No it doesn’t detect the correct pitch. Try it yourself with a known tuned kick drum like Bd_hatrick_A, it will tell it’s f#
Well I can't tell if it ALWAYS detects the right key, but that's probably because not all the samples have a key in the first place - as their nature always ain't tonal enough to detect the key. But then you just enable the osc and do it by ear then though. A musical trained ear is all you need then.
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by nooomy
Heigen5 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
nooomy wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
No it doesn’t detect the correct pitch. Try it yourself with a known tuned kick drum like Bd_hatrick_A, it will tell it’s f#
Well I can't tell if it ALWAYS detects the right key, but that's probably because not all the samples have a key in the first place - as their nature always ain't tonal enough to detect the key. But then you just enable the osc and do it by ear then though. A musical trained ear is all you need then.
No it has always been wrong with the ones I tried. I would recommend you not to use it for identifying pitch of drums.
I do it by ear it’s way better
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by Heigen5
nooomy wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
Heigen5 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
Well I can't tell if it ALWAYS detects the right key, but that's probably because not all the samples have a key in the first place - as their nature always ain't tonal enough to detect the key. But then you just enable the osc and do it by ear then though. A musical trained ear is all you need then.
No it has always been wrong with the ones I tried. I would recommend you not to use it for identifying pitch of drums.
I do it by ear it’s way better
Like I said, the sound detection is based on the 'tonal' rootkey and drums are kinda more like "crap" kind of sounds. Some drums like hardcore techno bassdrums or 808 bassdrums would be probably be detectable right more easily, than some other bassdrums, but yeah, if you want to detect the closest rootkey, just use your ears + a comparison layer to detect them.
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by nooomy
Heigen5 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
nooomy wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
No it has always been wrong with the ones I tried. I would recommend you not to use it for identifying pitch of drums.
I do it by ear it’s way better
Like I said, the sound detection is based on the 'tonal' rootkey and drums are kinda more like "crap" kind of sounds. Some drums like hardcore techno bassdrums or 808 bassdrums would be probably be detectable right more easily, than some other bassdrums, but yeah, if you want to detect the closest rootkey, just use your ears + a comparison layer to detect them.
I doubt you will find one kick drum in factory sound bank that it can detect correctly
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by Heigen5
nooomy wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
Heigen5 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
Like I said, the sound detection is based on the 'tonal' rootkey and drums are kinda more like "crap" kind of sounds. Some drums like hardcore techno bassdrums or 808 bassdrums would be probably be detectable right more easily, than some other bassdrums, but yeah, if you want to detect the closest rootkey, just use your ears + a comparison layer to detect them.
I doubt you will find one kick drum in factory sound bank that it can detect correctly
Ok, Haven't tested this. Do you think the FSB drums are different somehow then?
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by nooomy
Heigen5 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
nooomy wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
I doubt you will find one kick drum in factory sound bank that it can detect correctly
Ok, Haven't tested this. Do you think the FSB drums are different somehow then?
No I think that you can’t use grain or nnxt for pitch detecting on drums, because it doesn’t work. The pitch detecting is designed for tonal source Material not drums. And people shouldn’t be recommended to use it for drum tuning.
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by Heigen5
nooomy wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
Heigen5 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
Ok, Haven't tested this. Do you think the FSB drums are different somehow then?
No I think that you can’t use grain or nnxt for pitch detecting on drums, because it doesn’t work. And people shouldn’t be recommended to do it.
Well after 4 Grain Refills afterwards, in the most cases, my sounds were pitch-detected right though. I always confirmed that with the osc layer on method.
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by EdGrip
"Well the sample is DEFINITELY in A and so is the track. The matter is settled."
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by Heigen5
Yeah, not all musicians make hardstyle anyway...
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by EdGrip
*turning the pitch knob of the kick sample and hitting upon a point where it intermodulates with certain other mix elements in a particularly compelling way*
AHHH BUT WHAT LETTER IS IT?
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by EdGrip
Maybe someone could set up a certification scheme, where you submit a track and they use algorithms and FFT machine learning to verify that your kick is the correct pitch and then you can use the certification logo on the cover of your single.
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by Heigen5
By the way - in the NNXT you can detect stuff by right clicking on the layers and press the "Automap Zones" - not probably detecting well everything but for the tonal sounds it's almost guaranteed to work.
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by nooomy
Heigen5 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
By the way - in the NNXT you can detect stuff by right clicking on the layers and press the "Automap Zones" - not probably detecting well everything but for the tonal sounds it's almost guaranteed to work.
Yes the algorithm is created to detect the pitch of tonal sounds, thats why it works on those typ of sounds but not drums.
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by Heigen5
nooomy wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
Heigen5 wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
By the way - in the NNXT you can detect stuff by right clicking on the layers and press the "Automap Zones" - not probably detecting well everything but for the tonal sounds it's almost guaranteed to work.
Yes the algorithm is created to detect the pitch of tonal sounds, thats why it works on those typ of sounds but not drums.
Correct.
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by Boombastix
Not trying to derail this fabulous discussion, but this past weekend I was tuning some of my my tamburine loops...
Re: Detecting the pitch of kicks
Posted: 18 Aug 2020
by Heigen5
Boombastix wrote: ↑18 Aug 2020
Not trying to derail this fabulous discussion, but this past weekend I was tuning some of my my tamburine loops...
How did it went then?
