Reason or Ableton

[Aosta]

An interesting video just released by Kickback Couture (who got a little flak from her last video about Reason) but I think she has some valid points in this video. I know there are quite a few Ableton users here and some that have even jumped the Reason ship over to there.
Not an Ableton user personally so I'd be interested in an open discussion for the pros and cons from other users and I'm hoping it doesn't go south like the last video

[BRIGGS]

7:03 "polyphonic is one note played at a time, no harmonies" wat???

[MuttReason]

Reason or Ableton? Hmm, well if you can afford it, the best answer (for me) is… both. And add a Push 2 into the mix also as there is no better DAW controller on the market IMO. The RRP inside Live with Reason devices mapped to, and controlled by, a Push 2 is an incredible combo. I’ve also found the upside of having both is being able to switch between the two DAWs depending on setup (I run Live+RRP in my music studio space and the Reason DAW on my laptop when away from home).

FWIW… IMO there’s no contest between Reason’s devices and the stock Live devices. Reason’s built in devices offer a vast sonic palette compared with stock Ableton plugins, even Live 11 Suite, and personally I find Live's AAS synths (Analog, Electric, Tension etc) to be particularly poor with a rubbish UI and weak sounds. Pretty much everything I create in Live now combines my hardware gear with multiple instances of the RRP and no stock Live instruments or other plugins other than some Waves stuff on the master and UAD plugins for tracking.

If I had to choose one DAW it would be Reason because I know it at least as well as I know Live plus the Reason DAW is ahead of Live in some aspects (Pitch Edit is great) although also quite a few years behind in others (eg MIDI clock to multiple out ports, how hard could that be to add?). The hardest thing to say goodbye to if I switched from Live to Reason would be the Push 2 (and I know about the third-party program that can allow a Push 2 to be used with Reason but it doesn’t have anything like the full functionality of Live+Push2).

[guitfnky]

Live is amazing. it's just as easy to pick up and run with as Reason, but so much more capable in so many ways.

I thought I would miss physically routing cables using Live, but almost as soon as I needed to route something from one track to another, I understood how it worked in Live, and realized how gimmicky the cable routing thing is in Reason. yes, it's intuitive, but I found Live's menu system even more so.

Reason has a couple of legs up on Live--for one, the lack of integrated pitch correction in Live is its biggest issue, for me. and the MIDI editing isn't as user-friendly as in Reason. the ability to select MIDI notes tucked into a dense section and use a menu to edit parameters in Reason is much better than the system in Ableton, which makes you try to grab the velocity bar without accidentally selecting something else--a huge pain in the ass (there may be a better way in Live, but I don't think there is).

another area where Reason is a bit better is in idea generation, as the video mentions--Blocks is a really useful feature in Reason--and Session view in Live is too convoluted to be useful for my old ass. but I found I didn't miss Blocks as much as I thought I would--Live's Arrangement view is extremely quick to work in, and once you understand the concepts behind Ableton, it becomes far easier to work in than Reason's song mode.

comping is similar--I think I prefer Live. correcting timing within audio clips is handled a bit differently. I think I prefer Reason on that one.

session organization is a thousand times better in Live than in Reason. track folders are very easy to work with, and a folder = a buss for everything that's in it. intuitive, and quick. Reason is simply awful in terms of organization, especially if you have a lot of automation tracks in a big project. browsing feels like it makes more sense in Live as well. it's fast, although I'm not sure if it's faster than Reason--but it feels structured more intelligently.

and then there's the basics. you can add markers, auto punch, and add notes to devices and tracks--so simple, but super useful. and yeah, of course you can use plugins that generate MIDI properly in Live. it boggles the mind that any DAW in 2022 doesn't have that ability. and Reason doesn't.

while it's not as stable as Reason used to be, Live is definitely more stable for me than Reason 12 ever has been.

one of the best parts about Live is that it goes as deep as you want, in most every way you could need, but stays out of your way until/unless you want to go that far into the weeds. Reason is much the same, but its longstanding limitations keep you in the shallow end of the pool--not so, with Live.

last I'll say is that some people hate Live's UI (I used to), but I think once you embrace and learn to enjoy the DAW, it becomes beautiful in its own minimalistic way. and there are some really good themes out there, which make it more colorful if you're not into the gray thing. I'd probably rather have an ugly DAW that keeps me looking at my real-life instruments anyway.

it really depends where you are in your music-production journey, and of course, personal preference. Reason is a fantastic first DAW, but unless you're just a casual musician, it can get limiting very quickly. Live is just as easy to grasp, and goes quite deep. if I were just starting out, I might still recommend Reason, but for anyone with a bit of experience, you can't go wrong taking a hard look at Live.

[kitekrazy]

Live is one of those everything in the GUI DAWs. So much for multiple monitors. Their audio to midi conversion is good. I've tested it along with Melodyne, both give different results and in some cases I liked Live's.

Reason + vs. Live Suite, once you are in the door of having Live Suite, the upgrade price is slightly over a year of Reason +. Live hasn't updated much of their Suite. So with Reason + you will get something new from time to time.

For someone starting out Live has far more learning resources.

Standard Live and Reason have enough included that doesn't require the need to start investing in 3rd party plugins.

Live Suite also is 80gb and you can put that on another drive where Reason you can't without some work around that I wont bother to try.

Ableton spends time working on their DAW while Reason Studio is into creating more instruments.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Love both. RRP in live is the way to go. I love the reason instruments and the live workflow.

I like variation which is why sometimes I'll start a new project in Reason and love the workflow for writing, then I'll bounce audio (and midi sometimes) when the sketch is done and it's time to arrange and mix.

Btw, Guit, you select the notes and press alt and click and drag up or down to alter the velocity of those selected notes.

[PhillipOrdonez]

7:03 "polyphonic is one note played at a time, no harmonies" wat???

Yeah I didn't get that either

The physical modelling explanation could have been worded better too.

[Popey]

I use live with rrp nowadays and for me personally I am very happy with this solution. For me the benefits of live are track freeze, groups, full vst2 implementation and fast workflow for me.

If we are comparing instruments I would give reason the edge here but nowadays I tend to use external stuff from either daw (eg. Serum, phase plant, legend re etc). Effects are a mixed bag with the echo re and reason ssl eq used on every track but I also use a number of ableton effects as well as external re's and vst. Based on recent usage I would say reason probably is used more than stock live fx but it is pretty close.
Strangely I chose reason for the cabling options but now I prefer live especially when working quickly sidechaining things instantly instead of dragging in spiders and cabling things which I feel takes me out of my flow.

My pc is quite old and needs replacing so track freeze is great to enable me to finish tracks. You can save patches and midi in reason then commit to audio instead of track freeze in live but again it's more steps and takes longer, especially if you then need to bring the instrument and midi back to tweak something.

Overall I think they both have their plus points and I would be hard pushed to recommend one over the other.

[platzangst]

Live is amazing. it's just as easy to pick up and run with as Reason,

Is it? I'm genuinely curious.

One of the reasons I started with Reason (heh) was back in the day, when I was first starting out in digital music and trying to work out which DAW I was going to use, I demoed a bunch of the stuff available at the time, and Ableton was inscrutable to me. I couldn't wrap my head around it - whereas I nearly instantly figured out Reason's system for doing things.

Granted, this was when Reason was back on version 3 or so, and Ableton would have been in a correspondingly earlier version, so it's quite possible that Ableton Live has improved itself since then. I keep meaning to go back and re-demo Ableton to see if I can grok it better with a bit more DAW experience under my belt, but it's really a low priority compared to working with things I know already, so... I haven't.

[jam-s]

Granted, this was when Reason was back on version 3 or so, and Ableton would have been in a correspondingly earlier version, so it's quite possible that Ableton Live has improved itself since then. I keep meaning to go back and re-demo Ableton to see if I can grok it better with a bit more DAW experience under my belt, but it's really a low priority compared to working with things I know already, so... I haven't.

You could also take a look at Bitwig instead/additionally as I think it is the better match for Reason, now.

[guitfnky]

Live is amazing. it's just as easy to pick up and run with as Reason,

Is it? I'm genuinely curious.

One of the reasons I started with Reason (heh) was back in the day, when I was first starting out in digital music and trying to work out which DAW I was going to use, I demoed a bunch of the stuff available at the time, and Ableton was inscrutable to me. I couldn't wrap my head around it - whereas I nearly instantly figured out Reason's system for doing things.

Granted, this was when Reason was back on version 3 or so, and Ableton would have been in a correspondingly earlier version, so it's quite possible that Ableton Live has improved itself since then. I keep meaning to go back and re-demo Ableton to see if I can grok it better with a bit more DAW experience under my belt, but it's really a low priority compared to working with things I know already, so... I haven't.

it is super easy to get going in, provided you start learning it in Arrangement view. the first two (or three) times I tried Live, I gave up within the first hour because I was trying to work in Session view, and that I do find very difficult to use, even still. once I realized you can avoid using it almost entirely, Live became much easier to grasp.

[MuttReason]

Is it? I'm genuinely curious.

One of the reasons I started with Reason (heh) was back in the day, when I was first starting out in digital music and trying to work out which DAW I was going to use, I demoed a bunch of the stuff available at the time, and Ableton was inscrutable to me. I couldn't wrap my head around it - whereas I nearly instantly figured out Reason's system for doing things.

Granted, this was when Reason was back on version 3 or so, and Ableton would have been in a correspondingly earlier version, so it's quite possible that Ableton Live has improved itself since then. I keep meaning to go back and re-demo Ableton to see if I can grok it better with a bit more DAW experience under my belt, but it's really a low priority compared to working with things I know already, so... I haven't.

it is super easy to get going in, provided you start learning it in Arrangement view. the first two (or three) times I tried Live, I gave up within the first hour because I was trying to work in Session view, and that I do find very difficult to use, even still. once I realized you can avoid using it almost entirely, Live became much easier to grasp.

Strange thing is that for me, Session view is one of the things I love most about Live not least because Session view with Push 2 is fantastic. Session view just clicked from day one when I first began using Live (around v2 or v3 from memory… a long time ago).

I am much less keen on Arrangement view… really dislike the track info pane on the right (why can’t it be on the left like every other DAW ever made?) and I strongly prefer Reason DAW layout for linear composition.

Most of what I write starts off as either a bunch of clip ideas in Session view that then start to come together into an arrangement as I play in clips ‘live’ while recording… or I sketch ideas in Reason DAW when I’m travelling and on laptop only and then export loops as audio into Live.

[Popey]

it is super easy to get going in, provided you start learning it in Arrangement view. the first two (or three) times I tried Live, I gave up within the first hour because I was trying to work in Session view, and that I do find very difficult to use, even still. once I realized you can avoid using it almost entirely, Live became much easier to grasp.

Strange thing is that for me, Session view is one of the things I love most about Live not least because Session view with Push 2 is fantastic. Session view just clicked from day one when I first began using Live (around v2 or v3 from memory… a long time ago).

I am much less keen on Arrangement view… really dislike the track info pane on the right (why can’t it be on the left like every other DAW ever made?) and I strongly prefer Reason DAW layout for linear composition.

Most of what I write starts off as either a bunch of clip ideas in Session view that then start to come together into an arrangement as I play in clips ‘live’ while recording… or I sketch ideas in Reason DAW when I’m travelling and on laptop only and then export loops as audio into Live.

I have often wondered about getting a push 2 but it is fairly expensive for me. Does it fully integrate and allow you to fully control live and how do the pads work when composing melodies (how do you know where c or f is etc). I don't know anyone who owns one so have not ever had chance to use it and understand.

[moofi]

No

[Enlightenspeed]

They are both quite Marmite like really, you'll either love them or loathe them. Obviously I love Reason, but Live I just couldn't get along with after one ownership of the real version that then got sold - I struggled to fall in love with that way of working. For "heavyweight DAW" stuff I now go RRP into Cubase, which is a lot more to my tastes; an argument can be made of course that Cubase and Reason have a lot more in common with how they work, and thus they are a better match.

[kitekrazy]

I'm jealous of this young lady because of here knowledge at that age. I was studying music in college in the 80's when DAWs didn't exist. I look back at a time when I had more time to devote myself.

Over time I've collect just about every DAW there is for PC. Live Suite, Acid Pro 9 are the only DAW where I purchased 2 licenses. I have the might Cubase but it's one of those DAWs that doesn't really gel with me. Licensing is always #1 for me since I have 3 systems. If one has no issues with having a system online Reason licensing is very flexible. I still have the dongle on one system.

DAWs are like religions. People don't switch very often. One of the slowest developed DAWs is Pro Tools and it's still used by pros because they know it so well.

[avasopht]

7:03 "polyphonic is one note played at a time, no harmonies" wat???

Yeah I didn't get that either

The physical modelling explanation could have been worded better too.

I'm guessing she meant monophonic. Easy (ish) to make missed steak.

[EnochLight]

Not an Ableton user personally so I'd be interested in an open discussion for the pros and cons from other users and I'm hoping it doesn't go south like the last video

I didn't watch her video, but I do own both Ableton Live 11 Suite as well as Reason 12+. I've been a Reasoner for 20+ years, and ended up grabbing Live 11 last year when Reason's performance issues (at the time) were causing me a lot of grief on my older PC. But it didn't take a lot to push me to pick up Live 11, as I am also an Akai Force user - which is pretty much a standalone Ableton Push. I really enjoy the Clip-based production approach as it speaks to my style of writing (this is called Session View in Live). This is something that has always been missing in Reason, and while I do use Blocks, I prefer Live's Session View approach. So for me, that's Live 11's biggest draw.

I do find editing MIDI a lot easier to do in Reason, but maybe that's just because I'm in my first year of use in Live whereas I've been aboard Reason from its start.

For me, the two are perfect companions. That said... funny enough, I rarely use the Reason Rack VST in Ableton Live 11 - there's just enough in there already in Suite and I already own enough VST that it works well enough alone for me. So I sort of treat them as separate production entities. When I am working from the start in a DAW, I usually go with Reason. But if I start my project in my Akai Force (or even MPC Live II), I'll often bring that into Ableton Live 11 to finish.

DAWs are like religions.

Created by man to control people and fill the void that natural philosophy cannot?

I kid, I kid...

[miyaru]

I have both Reason 11 suite and Ableton Live suite 10. Comparing is difficult for me, they both have their strength and weakness. Like said before owning both and a Push2 makes life easier. I use PusheR2 software to control Reason 11 suite with the Push2. I love it that way. The synths are better in Reason imo.

For me it depends on my mood in what DAW to start and in what DAW to finish. One can import and export stuff from and to the other DAW.

It's pricey to have both and a Push2, but I found it a good investment. I would not like to choose on or the other........ better to have 'em both LOL!

[MuttReason]

Strange thing is that for me, Session view is one of the things I love most about Live not least because Session view with Push 2 is fantastic. Session view just clicked from day one when I first began using Live (around v2 or v3 from memory… a long time ago).

I am much less keen on Arrangement view… really dislike the track info pane on the right (why can’t it be on the left like every other DAW ever made?) and I strongly prefer Reason DAW layout for linear composition.

Most of what I write starts off as either a bunch of clip ideas in Session view that then start to come together into an arrangement as I play in clips ‘live’ while recording… or I sketch ideas in Reason DAW when I’m travelling and on laptop only and then export loops as audio into Live.

I have often wondered about getting a push 2 but it is fairly expensive for me. Does it fully integrate and allow you to fully control live and how do the pads work when composing melodies (how do you know where c or f is etc). I don't know anyone who owns one so have not ever had chance to use it and understand.

Push2 is fully integrated with Live. It’s a super powerful bit of kit, miles ahead of any other DAW controller. It is at its most effective in Session view IME but still offers a bunch of controls in Arrangement view. The ability to control any device using hardware rotary controls with visual feedback on the Push2 display is outstanding. The pads are also really good, easily in the top 3 in the market alongside Maschine and MPC.

You can’t control absolutely everything in Live from a Push (eg you still need mouse and keyboard to edit the content of clips for example) but you can do quite a lot with it without even looking at the computer screen.

I’m a big fan of creating complex Combi 2 devices in the RRP and then mapping the controls to the Live 11 macro controls which are then automatically mapped to the Push2. You can have up to 16 macros mapped like that which turns any Combi 2 into a monster performance beast with 16 hands-on controls (ie the 8 x Push2 rotaries with a bank button to access the second bank of 8 controls). You can do the same thing with any Reason device BTW, assigning a knob/fader/button on any device to a Live macro is v simple and fast. For example, I’ve mapped the most important 16 controls on The Legend RE to the Push2 rotaries… so easy to create Moog-ish sounds from scratch using just the rotary controls.

Melodies and chords are pretty simple, you use the Scale button to select a key and scale or mode, then the pads will map to that scale or mode with root notes highlighted in a different colour. There are YT vids of people playing amazingly intricate piano solos on Push2 which will give you an idea of what it can do.

[EnochLight]

The pads are also really good, easily in the top 3 in the market alongside Maschine and MPC.

I wonder how much the pads on Push 2 are alike (or not alike) the original Push? I know Akai made the original Push for Ableton, but then Ableton brought the design in-house for Push 2. The pads on Akai's Force are incredible - probably some of the best I've worked on.

[BRIGGS]

I'm guessing she meant monophonic. Easy (ish) to make missed steak.

steak is always better with butter

[jonnyretina]

Reason all the way. Hopefully at some point soon some form of clip launcher or real-time quantisable input will be available within the Reason environment. Once that happens, one of Ableton's major unique selling points (the Session View), should hopefully be easily fully replicable within Reason.

[MuttReason]

The pads are also really good, easily in the top 3 in the market alongside Maschine and MPC.

I wonder how much the pads on Push 2 are alike (or not alike) the original Push? I know Akai made the original Push for Ableton, but then Ableton brought the design in-house for Push 2. The pads on Akai's Force are incredible - probably some of the best I've worked on.

I’ve not used a Push1 before so don’t know how they compare. But FWIW I also have a MPC Live 2 Retro and the feel and responsiveness of the Push2 pads is easily up there with the MPC pads. Main difference in use is the Push2 pads are smaller than the MPC Live 2, although that’s no big deal for me as I’m a rubbish finger drummer anyway.

Also with Ableton Live 11 the Push2 pads send polyphonic aftertouch which is pretty awesome with a poly AT-enabled synth like my Hydrasynth Desktop or any of the Ableton instruments that are MPE-enabled (like the new Live 11 brass quartet and string quartet… amazingly expressive with poly AT on Push2). Shame Reason 12 isn’t MPE-enabled.

[Popey]

I have often wondered about getting a push 2 but it is fairly expensive for me. Does it fully integrate and allow you to fully control live and how do the pads work when composing melodies (how do you know where c or f is etc). I don't know anyone who owns one so have not ever had chance to use it and understand.

Push2 is fully integrated with Live. It’s a super powerful bit of kit, miles ahead of any other DAW controller. It is at its most effective in Session view IME but still offers a bunch of controls in Arrangement view. The ability to control any device using hardware rotary controls with visual feedback on the Push2 display is outstanding. The pads are also really good, easily in the top 3 in the market alongside Maschine and MPC.

You can’t control absolutely everything in Live from a Push (eg you still need mouse and keyboard to edit the content of clips for example) but you can do quite a lot with it without even looking at the computer screen.

I’m a big fan of creating complex Combi 2 devices in the RRP and then mapping the controls to the Live 11 macro controls which are then automatically mapped to the Push2. You can have up to 16 macros mapped like that which turns any Combi 2 into a monster performance beast with 16 hands-on controls (ie the 8 x Push2 rotaries with a bank button to access the second bank of 8 controls). You can do the same thing with any Reason device BTW, assigning a knob/fader/button on any device to a Live macro is v simple and fast. For example, I’ve mapped the most important 16 controls on The Legend RE to the Push2 rotaries… so easy to create Moog-ish sounds from scratch using just the rotary controls.

Melodies and chords are pretty simple, you use the Scale button to select a key and scale or mode, then the pads will map to that scale or mode with root notes highlighted in a different colour. There are YT vids of people playing amazingly intricate piano solos on Push2 which will give you an idea of what it can do.

Thanks for the info really handy to know. I watched a few videos on you tube and was surprised how versatile the display was and most things seemed to be easy to understand. Maybe a bit of a learning curve early on perhaps with the modes (clip, device) etc but it would definitely be a massive upgrade on my 25 key midi keyboard. Worth saving for me thinks