are we going to see more perpetual versions ?

[crimsonwarlock]

I'm not so sure that the development of some of the latest features would mean the development of Reason standalone is happening.

As already has been stated by others here, their current focus seems to be aimed at VST3 support, which is squarely aimed at standalone, as the RRP doesn't support VST plugins at all. However, it could well be possible that when VST3 support arrives, it also is included in the RRP.

Nevertheless, I still see no reason why they would abandon the standalone DAW, as it still creates several revenue streams for them, pretty much at zero additional cost concerning what they do on the RRP side of things.

And I would say my new signature below applies here as well

[avasopht]

You could argue that Combinator 2 and its editor, codebase revamps, taking on a new RE developer and so much of what Props have done recently is all aimed at R+, with some of it also benefiting Reason standalone - yet as an afterthought.

You could say that, but you could just as easily say the opposite. But suggesting Reason Standalone is just an afterthought to R+ is not only a non-sequitur, but also relies on the presumption that those details are disproportionately beneficial to R+.

Take away R+, and each of those is still just as valuable. That would mean that there is no valid argument that it suggests it favours R+. If Reason Standalone was only an afterthought, then at least one or two of those details would be out of place as a benefit to Reason standalone.

Note that the RE developer they took on is working on the application itself, not REs.

I haven't looked at DPI support enough to understand it but if you think it is associated with progressing / upgrading Reason standalone that's great, and as Deeplink mentioned VST3 support means the same thing, we can only hope it happens in our lifetimes.

I meant that high DPI support showed that they are still active (as you said it seemed they've not shown Reason much love).

[avasopht]

all that stuff apart from vst3 support
( which has taken so long even renoise implemented it quicker with there small tiny amount of coders )
is for
the rack plugin as well , i think vst3 has taken so long because it’s not a priority .

This is highly presumptuous speculation.

Renoise doesn't have half as much going on, so sure, Reason Studios also have devices to create (like Mimic, Friktion, Algoritm, Complex, Mutator, etc). So you're right, RS do have other priorities (lots of internal plugins, plus the RE SDK).

[Tinnitus]

The simple answer is yes, they well continue as otherwise they will lose a (likely large) percentage of people who upgrade their perpetuals who will stick with their final perpetual version and just use it as a RRP.
By pushing perpetual owners away (likely to other DAWs) they would also lose future revenue on RS devices and REs as the likely feeling of betrayal would stop further spending with RS.

So from my uninformed view, it would not make sense from a business perspective.

[avasopht]

My bad I got confused with the versions available.

I'm not so sure that the development of some of the latest features would mean the development of Reason standalone is happening. Developing / improving the RRP does not improve Reason standalone as far as I know? Don't forget for the longest time we have been debating if Reason standalone is going to be discontinued in some way, moving everyone to the RRP except for hardcore legacy users because of the obvious lack of interest / commitment / advancement from Props. The introduction of Combinator 2 did not all of a sudden alleviate those concerns, nor did High Res or any new rack devices etc etc - all of these could be considered a focus on the RRP.

It works like this.

Some people will ONLY be interested in RRP, and will NEVER use Reason Standalone.

Some people will ONLY be interested in Reason Standalone and will NEVER use RRP.

What you're proposing suggests Reason Studios wants to go bankrupt.

You have to remember that the use of RRP requires the purchase of another DAW. It's a completely different value proposition.

It also means no:
1. Audio Pitch Editor.
2. Recycle in the timeline.
3. Reason timeline timestretch.
4. ReGroove.
5. SSL Mixer.

Standalone users aren't "legacy". They're bread and butter.

They could only become legacy if the vast majority of Reason users purchased another DAW and stopped using or wanting Reason Standalone.

Not only do they gain nothing by doing this (as they could always just as easily keep selling Reason Standalone but not add any features to the timeline, etc), but they also lose EVERYTHING.

It would require vastly different circumstances for this to be a worthwhile topic

[Jagwah]

I'm not so sure that the development of some of the latest features would mean the development of Reason standalone is happening.

As already has been stated by others here, their current focus seems to be aimed at VST3 support, which is squarely aimed at standalone, as the RRP doesn't support VST plugins at all. However, it could well be possible that when VST3 support arrives, it also is included in the RRP.

Nevertheless, I still see no reason why they would abandon the standalone DAW, as it still creates several revenue streams for them, pretty much at zero additional cost concerning what they do on the RRP side of things.

And I would say my new signature below applies here as well

I see no reason why they 'appear' to have abandoned the DAW and caused all this confusion and annoyance, this never needed to take forever.

My point still remains - almost all focus has been on the RRP and the latest features only reinforce that imo. VST3 being the main exception but that's not even here yet... High DSP support also should indicate DAW progress and future upgrades so there is no confusion, just that there's been very blurred lines about all of this.

I agree with your signature's sentiment because it's important to focus on using our tool for our craft, not be concerned with its inadequacies, but why be satisfied with our tool stagnating for so long when it could have progressed in leaps and bounds by now?

[Jagwah]

Standalone users aren't "legacy". They're bread and butter.

They could only become legacy if the vast majority of Reason users purchased another DAW and stopped using or wanting Reason Standalone.

Not only do they gain nothing by doing this (as they could always just as easily keep selling Reason Standalone but not add any features to the timeline, etc), but they also lose EVERYTHING.

It would require vastly different circumstances for this to be a worthwhile topic

Reason could not become legacy as a result of Props phasing out Reason to get everyone on RRP? Is that not a possibility? I seem to remember reading that being speculated on here that's why I mentioned it.

Standalone users being Prop's bread and butter is news to me but I do not know and there's been debate about all of this for a very long time. In that time progress with the DAW has been very minimal. Yes debatable on many counts, but according to you guys, VST3 support and High DSP support both indicate work is absolutely happening on the DAW and that's wonderful news to me.

[Jackjackdaw]

I think they could do a lot more to improve RRP. A sampling input from the host and drag player patterns to track are a couple of obvious omissions that keep me using stand-alone.

I think the combinator upgrade and the hd graphics are worthy improvements that suggest they are still in the game. They move slow though, that’s for sure. It’s been said they are a tiny team but when the credits scroll up on the About screen it looks like they have loads of staff!

[crimsonwarlock]

...why be satisfied with our tool stagnating for so long when it could have progressed in leaps and bounds by now?

... and yet, people spend insane amounts of money on vintage hardware that has been stagnant for 40 years or longer

I totally don't subscribe to the "stagnant tool" sentiment, hence my (new) signature. I use Reason DAW for what it does. It suffices for me today, and I don't see how, for some strange reason, it won't suffice for me tomorrow.

[Jackjackdaw]

...why be satisfied with our tool stagnating for so long when it could have progressed in leaps and bounds by now?

I totally don't subscribe to the "stagnant tool" sentiment, hence my (new) signature. I use Reason DAW for what it does. It suffices for me today, and I don't see how, for some strange reason, it won't suffice for me tomorrow.

I agree , except I do think they have to evolve to support current computer standards. The HD was important to me and so is VST3. M1 support is rightfully expected by Mac users. These are all standards that aren’t even new anymore!

[crimsonwarlock]

I agree , except I do think they have to evolve to support current computer standards. The HD was important to me and so is VST3. M1 support is rightfully expected by Mac users. These are all standards that aren’t even new anymore!

I do get the VST3 argument, and so does RS obviously or they wouldn't be working on it. However, VST plugins still remain a strange beast in Reason because they don't adhere to the rack paradigm. I do use a few VST plugins but could easily live without them in Reason. I actually tend to remove at least one VST plugin each month because I find I don't need it with all the RE power I have available.

The HD graphics were very welcome, my eyes are getting worse with age and I basically upgraded to 12 because of HD graphics. However, Reason 11 worked for me as is. Not getting HD graphics would not have made me abandon Reason.

As for M1 support, I'll still remember the drama when Logic went Apple exclusive, so I'll leave it at that.

[Jackjackdaw]

Well yeah Apple are a pain in the ass the way they chop and change all over the place, beats me why people indulge them with it. But as a software company selling on that platform, customers reasonably expect them to support it properly.

[avasopht]

Reason could not become legacy as a result of Props phasing out Reason to get everyone on RRP? Is that not a possibility?

Not presently, no.

Basically, it can only be a possibility (well, a reasonable possibility) if the vast majority of demand for Reason Standalone shifts towards RRP.

You cannot force that, and it's astronomically unlikely this is a goal they're trying to pursue.

As of today, they can either continue to develop the DAW or go bankrupt. Shifting people to RRP is a weak theory as it requires it to be:
1. Little to no risk: but any evaluation would show this to be extremely high risk.
2. Significant enough likely benefit to offset risk: but I don't think there are any indications that shifting users to RRP would yield any sizeable benefit.

Standalone users being Prop's bread and butter is news to me but I do not know and there's been debate about all of this for a very long time. In that time progress with the DAW has been very minimal. Yes debatable on many counts, but according to you guys, VST3 support and High DSP support both indicate work is absolutely happening on the DAW and that's wonderful news to me.

It's been their bread and butter for the last 20 years.

Nothing suggests that's changed.

Is there any less activity on the DAW today than there was 10 or 15 years ago?

[chimp_spanner]

Yeah like it's already been mentioned but VST3 support is, for now, exclusively a standalone thing. And while we're all still waiting on <insert shiny new feature here> there have actually been a fair few maintenance updates to the core program since R+ rolled out. I feel like the bug fixes and small patch-ups are coming faster than they used to. So that's good! Very much looking forward to Splice Bridge, and a small number of plugins I really like to use in Live.

[selig]

As of today, they can either continue to develop the DAW or go bankrupt. Shifting people to RRP is a weak theory as it requires it to be:
1. Little to no risk: but any evaluation would show this to be extremely high risk.
2. Significant enough likely benefit to offset risk: but I don't think there are any indications that shifting users to RRP would yield any sizeable benefit.

Not only that, they could not charge nearly as much for a plugin vs a full fledged (so says some of us) DAW, so the price (either perpetual and/or subscription) would need to be lowered if they dropped the standalone version. That is unless they added some amazing killer features, but we're still waiting for VST3 and M1 support…
So there's that.

[crimsonwarlock]

so says some of us

Me, me, me

[Sorped]

I've said it here before, subscription means you must be able to pay to USE the software. Getting a perpetual license means you must be able to pay to GET the software, but you can use it even when you cannot pay anything. Subscriptions work for people with steady income (is that even still a thing), but when you don't have that, then a subscription means you can't use Reason when you are out of money. And in my opinion, that's when you need your hobbies the most.

exactly that

subscriptions are greed
theres no need


and yes exactly that people who just take out subs and forget about it coming out there bank

not the people who have to check every penny or every direct debit

i like the option of skipping a version

even with subs i really don’t feel like i own it

feels like back when you used cracked versions to me

like your borrowing it until you can have it completly and own it yourself

subs is a good thing of someone needs to do a project and they haven’t got reason and they collaborate

but it’s not viable and wantable for me in the long term

that’s why i think

if they concentrate more on the rack

make the rack sub make it like a kontakt thing

add more cinematic libraries

and keep a small version for the daw and keep the daw seperate from that

i would be boss at this strategy and marketing and updating of this product

use amazons customer service as the base

ps: do the reason guys come in here anymore ?

Yes, it is a horrible concept to offer different options. Everybody is exactly the same!
Some people enjoy the subscription model, others enjoy the perpetual license model. Horrible, horrible, horrible concept.
Why are people so obsessed with people who have a slightly different apporach to things?

[crimsonwarlock]

Yes, it is a horrible concept to offer different options. Everybody is exactly the same!

That is definitely not what I was saying. The subscription system is great for people who can spare the money on a monthly basis. If you are a paid producer, being able to activate a subscription only when you need it for a project is a very economic option. If Reason is your hobby, and you don't have a steady income, or you have trouble to make ends meet, then absolutely not.

The point is actually that indeed all people are not the same. There are people for whom the subscription model sucks because you can't use Reason when you are out of money. I doubt that's a difficult concept to grasp.

[Yonatan]

DAW market is a tough basket to be putting all your eggs in. RS probably knows it takes much time and effort to only focus on that (cleaning up the code etc), but they as we know, that for each betterment of the Reason DAW, brings it to become more attractive.

Reason and Record fused, these two needs or user interests still somewhat exists in theory but now as the Rack plugin and the DAW. Some uses both or can do so if needed.

Users that only uses the Rack plugin in another DAW, wants more focus on Rack and/or more devices and dont care much about the "Record" DAW side.
And those mainly uses the Reason as a DAW, wants more focus on core functions, sequencer improvements, workflow etc. They may say "We need no more toys, we want these crucial core features...or else we have to change DAW soon...but we dont want to do so as Reason is our preferred creative environment".

The other market, Rack as a plugin with instruments and effects, is also a tough one, if that was their only focus.

So, from that point, RS is trying to cross the ocean with both these worlds and doing it with their own touch (as always).

Reason+ seem to be a way to not having to buy a full package but to be able to use Reason environment or the Rack with RS plugins, on certain projects. Even most 3rd party RE can be on a separate subscription.

All these options are ways to not close doors to users. So when RS finally introduce something new, for the DAW or the Rack, there are ways for older ex users as well as new ones, to jump into the Reason eco system.

For me, when I picked up Reason 4 and Record back in the days, I have gradually collected Refills and RE´s, but at these times, people wants to go in more fully and not have to spend extraordinary sums just because they are late to Reason. And they want to be able to change platforms more easily.

Yes, as a somewhat longtime user, I have many times felt a bit neglected. RS have mainly had their eyes on new users and also made their mistakes but (hopefully) learnt from them.
But also, if they are to be able to keep adding value to this Reason ship, new users and those that jumped the ship, need to be able to find a way back on the ship and also leave anytime they wish. Earlier it was a very closed exclusive system. Now it is more open, RS tries to make Reason environment more accessible.

Yes, it is a slow road right now to have to satisfy so many options. And who knows how well it will work out. Both the Rack plugin, the DAW and the concept of Reason+ with soundpacks, have adjustments and changes to make them even more compelling and open for different needs among artists and producers.

One thing I do think RS could do to create a better spirit is to support the 3rd party RE makers a bit more.
As an example, there are advanced producers that have tons of stuff but they may not need or want to subscribe or buy the whole package to use Rack plugin. They may see one or a few RE that they want to be able to use in another DAW, but it gets too expensive to buy the package with a DAW, just to be able to buy a RE that they want to use as a VST.
I dont know how many such users exist, but quite some is my guess. And it could bring revenue to RS as well.
So some sort of "Rack plugin included when buying a RE in the shop". It can be a blank Rack and maybe maybe, for extra fees, be able to upgrade the Rack with RS RE´s on different levels. Yes, then that becomes another entry to the system. But one should be able to use the Rack plugin blank with just selected RE´s. That would support the RE makers and even invite more to sell RE in the shop, as that automatically will be a VST3 via the included blank rack (or with some basics in it).

[dakta]

For me, subscription works because of the accessibility - if I bought everything the subs got me then I'd probably make no music - i'd be bankrupt

"if you have a perpetual license, you can decide not to pay anymore"

I haven't done it but I beleive I can decide not to pay anymore either, consequence is temporary. I've no big issue paying a monthly as long as it';s not an absolute fortune (which RS isn't as it's just a few premium coffees every month, or twice the radio i used to listen to). The constant revenue stream might also keep RS a viable ship which despite peoples views on their attitude towards updates is a vital

Imagine having to buy hardware

you must have money to burn if your paying £20 for a couple of coffees lol

i just like owning stuff tbh.

for me having it only for a month and
maybe it’s just my brain here but i don’t feel like it’s mine,
it just feels the same as cracking software to me
maybe i’m
different but
because i really don’t think about paying the developer i care more that it belongs to me , it makes me feel like i want to use it more because it’s my thing , it’s like i’m borrowing someone else’s television every month it’s nice i can watch stuff but i feel like ohh it’s gotta go back eventually if circumstances change its the same for me with subs ,
i think if stuff becomes sub only a lot more people will use the reason 12 cracked version

i’m on 11 now and i will stay there for a while unless 13 is great . i will never sub .

To be honest it's more than a couple, I only go into office a few days each month but if you a costa coffee in the morning each time, or bring one in for a colleague you hit that £20 quite fast

Another perhaps more fair analogy is where I park which is in the city, it's £16 per day

£20 is a lot of money of course, I'm trying to balance it against other things - if I did have to buy synth gear I'd just not be in the game whatever I wanted

Do agree on the ownership aspect though, I hate the concept of renting it sort of bugs me in an OCD like way but I try to switch off because it does add to the revenue stream and without revenue RS will be nothing

It's also partial guilt because I only subscribed to reason in reason years when i could actually afford it. Made a point of doing it though

[Jagwah]

It's been their bread and butter for the last 20 years.

Nothing suggests that's changed.

Is there any less activity on the DAW today than there was 10 or 15 years ago?

I missed the point where the worrying speculation about the phasing out of the DAW to move everyone to the RRP had stopped and become completely outrageous and the only truth possible is what you speak. I'm pretty sure I get it, moving on.

[Jagwah]

...why be satisfied with our tool stagnating for so long when it could have progressed in leaps and bounds by now?

... and yet, people spend insane amounts of money on vintage hardware that has been stagnant for 40 years or longer

I totally don't subscribe to the "stagnant tool" sentiment, hence my (new) signature. I use Reason DAW for what it does. It suffices for me today, and I don't see how, for some strange reason, it won't suffice for me tomorrow.

Well we all have our own opinions. I am of the opinion that Reason could have progressed in leaps and bounds over all these years when it didn't.

I never said that Reason will not satisfy me, it already does.

You seem to want to shoot me down for everything I say so I'll just STFU.

[avasopht]

... and the only truth possible is what you speak ...

not sure how we got here



...

[Jagwah]

... and yet, people spend insane amounts of money on vintage hardware that has been stagnant for 40 years or longer

I totally don't subscribe to the "stagnant tool" sentiment, hence my (new) signature. I use Reason DAW for what it does. It suffices for me today, and I don't see how, for some strange reason, it won't suffice for me tomorrow.

Well we all have our own opinions. I am of the opinion that Reason could have progressed in leaps and bounds over all these years when it didn't.

I never said that Reason will not satisfy me, it already does.

[Jagwah]

... and the only truth possible is what you speak ...

not sure how we got here



...

I don't have a clue what you are confused about?