Thoughts on Reason DAW standalone: new life?

[EnochLight]

So, anyone else noticed that the last two promotional/tutorial videos promoted by Reason Studios featured Reason as a standalone DAW? No RRP in sight.

In particular, “How to make REX Loops” on November 7, 2022 and now “From Raw Chord Progressions to Full Songs with Chord Sequencer” on November 8 both featured Reason DAW proper. I like this direction.

[bossa]

I work exclusively with the Standallone version? What is so special about it?

[Jackjackdaw]

The presenter also rocks out a shirt with the proper Reason logo. Read in to that what you will! Lol

[EnochLight]

I work exclusively with the Standallone version? What is so special about it?

I mean... you're not new around here - I'm sure you've seen the Reason Studios is abandoning the standalone DAW, etc threads/posts that seem to pop up fairly regularly? I'm just saying - it's refreshing to see them post videos specifically showing off core DAW features and all in standalone. Seeing these and knowing that VST3 support is coming soon is a nice change of pace.

[selig]

Maybe they realized a lot of folks are using BOTH, like I have recently begun to do.
Sure, more folks speak of using one or the other (or leaving one for the other). But I find Reason to still be the best DAW for ME to start songs with, just not to 'finish' them.
That's where LUNA comes in, and the number of times I need a certain effect and can just quickly build it using RRP is amazing. Things like auto pan locked to tempo, dynamic control of an effect, an LFO controlling literally anything, etc.
It's really like having multiple products: a basic library of fairly unique instruments (including my sample library built up over the past 20 years now), a Reaktor-like building block instrument for combining/integrating multiple instruments, and a totally tweak-able effects collection (and all with a relatively robust control/interface designer).
I find this the perfect setup these days. After holding out for years for Reason to become the "one DAW to rule them all" I've resigned myself to the reality that ain't happening. And this approach is quite literally the next best thing IMO!
BUT - for all this to work, they need equal attention on both products, which I'm glad to see is progressing nicely (at the usual glacial pace).

[Tinnitus]

This refocusing of their marketing message makes me hopeful more sequencer love is incoming.

The workflow is so quick. However as I've only used Reason, it's hard to tell if this is the design or my familiarity with the product.

If 13 is full of sequencer updates, they are going to guarantee upgrade revenue from those that still use it as a DAW.

[bxbrkrz]

Only two videos is statically meaningless. Maybe after 10 for a new life?
Why not revamp the old 52 weeks of Reason into 52 new 4K videos of cool stuff RS 12 standalone can do today? I love good well made remakes.

[avasopht]

I've never known the development effort of a team to be reflected in marketing material. Market research might indicate what to produce/develop/improve/maintain, but the promo/advertising effort might be different because it needs to INFLUENCE purchases.

Instead, marketing material is produced based on what brings in the most purchases.

For every $1 they spend on advertising RRP, they might yield $3 worth of sales from NEW CUSTOMERS who are now aware they can use RRP in their current DAW.

For every $1 they spend on advertising the DAW, they might only yield $1.10 worth of sales from existing customers who already knew about the DAW but needed a little prodding to buy an UPGRADE now rather than some time next year or the year after when the next version of Reason comes out (plus they'll receive notifications via their registered Email address).

So, while it yields them a profit of $0.10, it's an opportunity cost of $1.90.

Instead, it might be best for them to invest in focus groups to gauge interest in in-development DAW features and associated R&D for the DAW. You might also find them commissioning REs or financially incentivizing ports (which they might have done with Autotune and some of the earlier big brand REs).

As an example, putting "I spend 3 hours per week reviewing my mistakes and cockups to improve my productivity" might be less effective than "Certifications on X, Y and Z". That doesn't mean you're not learning from your cockups.

[QVprod]

I just see it all as Reason. The argument of which one gets used in a video is silly to me because usually it’s something both the DAW and the plugin can do. But hopefully it does inspire more confidence amongst those fearful of unlikely futures.

[EnochLight]

But hopefully it does inspire more confidence amongst those fearful of unlikely futures.

This was my takeaway. I just don't see them making a visible effort to show the last two videos taking place in Reason DAW standalone if RRP was the sole focus. Was hoping that it would make some of those who have been skeptical feel a bit more at ease, but - as always - IT'S A TOUGH CROWD.

Eh, anyway.

[Propellerhands]

Maybe they realized a lot of folks are using BOTH, like I have recently begun to do.
Sure, more folks speak of using one or the other (or leaving one for the other). But I find Reason to still be the best DAW for ME to start songs with, just not to 'finish' them.

I agree 100 percent, Reason is best DAW for starting ideas. But finishing them it is a bit tedious job, especially when a track becomes too complex.

On related note, I have so many demo tracks right now, but that's not a bad thing, I intend on finishing most of them. Part of my love for Reason is how quickly it opens. Just 4-5 seconds, while Ableton takes 10 seconds at least. Perhaps that's why whenever I feel inspired I choose Reason, and when I am drunk I choose Ableton.

[DaveyG]

I just see it all as Reason. The argument of which one gets used in a video is silly to me because usually it’s something both the DAW and the plugin can do.

Don't worry. When they finally implement VST3 support they will be able to do videos with Reason Standalone hosting the RRP and thus keep everyone happy.

[Billy+]

But hopefully it does inspire more confidence amongst those fearful of unlikely futures.

This was my takeaway. I just don't see them making a visible effort to show the last two videos taking place in Reason DAW standalone if RRP was the sole focus. Was hoping that it would make some of those who have been skeptical feel a bit more at ease, but - as always - IT'S A TOUGH CROWD.

Eh, anyway.

I'm not sure that creating Rex loops is possible in other daws and I would also guess that setting up chord sequencer in another daw and using the cv would not entirely translate, so I think it was just simply the only real option for both videos

I would prefer to see daw features that show real interest in Reason standalone and it's continued development but I also think RRP is a very handy option as well so don't really read anything into any of the marketing/social content.

[Jackjackdaw]

I'm not sure that creating Rex loops is possible in other daws and I would also guess that setting up chord sequencer in another daw and using the cv would not entirely translate, so I think it was just simply the only real option for both videos

Well that’s kind of the point isn’t it? They are highlighting the things stand-alone can do that other DAWs cannot. Therefore signalling a commitment to stand-alone that is often doubted by some people.

[Billy+]

I'm not sure that creating Rex loops is possible in other daws and I would also guess that setting up chord sequencer in another daw and using the cv would not entirely translate, so I think it was just simply the only real option for both videos

Well that’s kind of the point isn’t it? They are highlighting the things stand-alone can do that other DAWs cannot. Therefore signalling a commitment to stand-alone that is often doubted by some people.

Maybe it is but I really don't see any reason to read anything into the selection of RRP vs Reason standalone.

The standalone daw works far better than RRP and I would assume that it always will what makes RRP great is the choices it gives you to take the devices from Reason and work with other daw's.

I never did use rewire and although I'm using RRP in Live from what I've read rewire was far superior but I guess that there's something easy about RRP that makes dropping rewire worth the loss in functionality.

Either way I'm just not someone who reads to much into the content anymore than I try to figure out if someone is meaning something different than what they are saying....

[QVprod]

Well that’s kind of the point isn’t it? They are highlighting the things stand-alone can do that other DAWs cannot. Therefore signalling a commitment to stand-alone that is often doubted by some people.

Maybe it is but I really don't see any reason to read anything into the selection of RRP vs Reason standalone.

The standalone daw works far better than RRP and I would assume that it always will what makes RRP great is the choices it gives you to take the devices from Reason and work with other daw's.

I never did use rewire and although I'm using RRP in Live from what I've read rewire was far superior but I guess that there's something easy about RRP that makes dropping rewire worth the loss in functionality.

Either way I'm just not someone who reads to much into the content anymore than I try to figure out if someone is meaning something different than what they are saying....

I think it would be really odd for them to show something stand-alone works better than the plug-in for if the intent as people say is to abandon it. That would be very counter intuitive.

As far as Rewire. It was definitely not better than RRP. Several Reason users left completely because the workflow was annoying to deal with for most. The few that prefer it are those that liked being able to use two different sequencers synced together (particularly nice for switching patterns). That’s the only ‘missing’ feature from RRP that Rewire had.

[PhillipOrdonez]

RRP is dead. I'm calling it. Now they are only focusing on the sTaNdALonE instead of working in enhancing the RRP. Multiple rack lanes option and CV over various RRP instances! Moog showed it can be done with their new vst pedals. It can be done!



/s in case it isn't obvious. But I do mean the requests. They'd be superb RRP additions

[huggermugger]

I haven't been paying attention recently, but the main enhancements brought to us in R12 primarily benefitted the RRP, with very little improvement if any specific to the standalone. To me, this indicates where their priorities lie, even if they do throw us standalone users a bone now and then. The one major update that would specifically benefit the standalone is the most controversial one - VST3. We're nearing the middle of November, a year and four months since the R12 beta was prematurely let out of the bag, and still we've seen nothing but a roadmap that seems to wander aimlessly into the desert towards a mirage.

[MuttReason]

I haven't been paying attention recently, but the main enhancements brought to us in R12 primarily benefitted the RRP, with very little improvement if any specific to the standalone. To me, this indicates where their priorities lie, even if they do throw us standalone users a bone now and then. The one major update that would specifically benefit the standalone is the most controversial one - VST3. We're nearing the middle of November, a year and four months since the R12 beta was prematurely let out of the bag, and still we've seen nothing but a roadmap that seems to wander aimlessly into the desert towards a mirage.

IIRC the most recent build of R12 included a bunch of new performance optimisations (hyper threading options etc) that are more relevant for Reason DAW than for RRP. And of course VST3 is a DAW thing not RRP (and at some point soon we have to assume RS’ promise of VST3 will come good). No doubt there is a lot of drift going on with RS (it’s the same with M1 support) but the old Props and the new(ish) RS do have at least one thing in common… they can take an age to fix or add what is needed, but almost always they get there eventually….

[avasopht]

Too much premature speculation can make you go blind

[bxbrkrz]

[DaveyG]

As far as Rewire. It was definitely not better than RRP. Several Reason users left completely because the workflow was annoying to deal with for most. The few that prefer it are those that liked being able to use two different sequencers synced together (particularly nice for switching patterns). That’s the only ‘missing’ feature from RRP that Rewire had.

Reason with Rewire had one other big advantage over RRP: the ability to host VSTs. If you use the RRP exclusively you cannot use any Combinator that uses a VST, including all of the new Combi2 "VST wrappers" that have been published on this forum and elsewhere. If you believe the hype then Reason usage is currently split about 50/50 between Standalone and RRP so that's half of all users not using having access to those combis. There is no technical reason for the RRP not to host VSTs - plenty of other VSTs host other VSTs, so I assume it's a design decision in order to focus resources elsewhere.

I've no feel for how widespread Rewire usage was but I have been surprised at the strength of feeling on some other DAW forums about Rewire being dropped from those DAWs. In fact there are current feature requests for it to be re-added to Cubase and Studio One! The biggest irritations of Rewire were remembering to start up the two DAWs in the correct order and remembering to save the project at both ends at the same time. I always thought the latter thing should have been achievable automatically with the master optionally being able to command the slave to "save" or "save and exit".

But it's all water under the bridge. They sure as hell ain't going to bring Rewire back. I've still got R10 installed purely for compatibility with Rewire and a bunch of Combis I put together but now that other DAWs, specifically Studio One and Cubase, have dropped Rewire it means I need to keep old versions of those too, which becomes too much hassle at some point.

(As an aside I still have a virtual machine running Reason and Rebirth together using the Rebirth Input Machine, which I think was a forerunner of Rewire. It's easy to forget how much fun and how revolutionary Rebirth was...).

[avasopht]

Are VST There Yet?

[QVprod]

As far as Rewire. It was definitely not better than RRP. Several Reason users left completely because the workflow was annoying to deal with for most. The few that prefer it are those that liked being able to use two different sequencers synced together (particularly nice for switching patterns). That’s the only ‘missing’ feature from RRP that Rewire had.

Reason with Rewire had one other big advantage over RRP: the ability to host VSTs. If you use the RRP exclusively you cannot use any Combinator that uses a VST, including all of the new Combi2 "VST wrappers" that have been published on this forum and elsewhere. If you believe the hype then Reason usage is currently split about 50/50 between Standalone and RRP so that's half of all users not using having access to those combis. There is no technical reason for the RRP not to host VSTs - plenty of other VSTs host other VSTs, so I assume it's a design decision in order to focus resources elsewhere.

I've no feel for how widespread Rewire usage was but I have been surprised at the strength of feeling on some other DAW forums about Rewire being dropped from those DAWs. In fact there are current feature requests for it to be re-added to Cubase and Studio One! The biggest irritations of Rewire were remembering to start up the two DAWs in the correct order and remembering to save the project at both ends at the same time. I always thought the latter thing should have been achievable automatically with the master optionally being able to command the slave to "save" or "save and exit".

But it's all water under the bridge. They sure as hell ain't going to bring Rewire back. I've still got R10 installed purely for compatibility with Rewire and a bunch of Combis I put together but now that other DAWs, specifically Studio One and Cubase, have dropped Rewire it means I need to keep old versions of those too, which becomes too much hassle at some point.

(As an aside I still have a virtual machine running Reason and Rebirth together using the Rebirth Input Machine, which I think was a forerunner of Rewire. It's easy to forget how much fun and how revolutionary Rebirth was...).

Right, forgot about the combinators. I never got into making combis with VSTs so it’s an easy oversight for me.

Rewire as a protocol did have widespread use in recent years, but not specifically for Reason. IIRC Melodyne used Rewire some time before DAWs started supporting ARA. There’s likely some other older programs that were affected by RS discontinuing it.

[selig]

I haven't been paying attention recently, but the main enhancements brought to us in R12 primarily benefitted the RRP, with very little improvement if any specific to the standalone. To me, this indicates where their priorities lie, even if they do throw us standalone users a bone now and then. The one major update that would specifically benefit the standalone is the most controversial one - VST3. We're nearing the middle of November, a year and four months since the R12 beta was prematurely let out of the bag, and still we've seen nothing but a roadmap that seems to wander aimlessly into the desert towards a mirage.

I agree their priorities have recently been focused more on RRP, which makes sense because it’s new and needs the most work. But I don’t think this implies any sort of long term abandonment of the DAW. Also, I’m not sure how VST3 is “controversial”. It was delayed due to other issues taking more time than projected.

Now they are addressing VST3 and I’m fairly confident it will be in the next release - hopefully that will be before the end of the year. But don’t we all want it done right and not just “on time”? Isn’t that your main complaint above, that they rushed out R12 and what they SHOULD have done was delay the release when it was clear it wasn’t up to their standards? Isn’t that exactly what they’ve done with VST3 support?

We begged for a road map. They said ‘yea but if we give you one, you’ll just see it as a ‘promise’ and then complain if we don’t hit all the marks on time. We said, ‘no we won’t (we promise!), we understand it’s just a road map and things change etc.’.

I can’t tell you how many times folks literally said “they broke their promise” and similar simply because they missed the goals on the road map. FWIW I’ve never been on a road trip where my road map was followed exactly.

Oh well, I’ll speculate the ONE thing they are least likely to continue to support in the future is not the DAW or the RRP - it’s the roadmap!