R12, 16 months on, ... how are you all finding it?

[moneykube]

wow
authorizer once opened manually (yet again) > is NOW syncing 9 racks I had downloaded or had missed going through the pages. Progress of sorts... I guess. I do know for sure that many were just downloaded... not sure about a couple.
Hopefully this will licence everything now, and I will be able to finally try 12.5 out.
Guess we will see when it finishes downloading stuff again. None of the racks I mentioned that appear as not high res, are being downloaded... so I am still curious if others have those 3 as saying they are high res in authorizer... or not.

[moneykube]

Tbh. i don't use it yet. In the beginning i've read that it is buggy and laggy. I was afraid that it takes too much power from my CPU. Can someone in this thread tell how much more CPU-use R12 has with the newest version? Much more than 11? (I am running currently Reason 11 Suite). On the other hand i don't know if i need the benefits of 12. If there had been a new synthesizer...maybe. But a sampler... not for me But i am still interested in it.

I will let you know when and if I can open it, and have time to explore this new version.
I am sure others using reason plus can tell you
Seems I will make the 4000 post mark at this rate
I do find it odd that I have to make new posts instead of being able to edit the current posts... Seems like censorship to me.
Some posts I can't edit only had one or two revisions as things progressed so it is not based on edits
Reason 12 appears authorized with all the racks now....

[joeyluck]

I will let you know when and if I can open it, and have time to explore this new version.
I am sure others using reason plus can tell you
Seems I will make the 4000 post mark at this rate
I do find it odd that I have to make new posts instead of being able to edit the current posts... Seems like censorship to me.
Some posts I can't edit only had one or two revisions as things progressed so it is not based on edits
Reason 12 appears authorized with all the racks now....

Yes, I would agree that the play-by-play is pretty spammy and unnecessary.

The forum has a time limit on edits.

[moneykube]

Yes, I would agree that the play-by-play is pretty spammy and unnecessary.
The forum has a time limit on edits.

Noted... thanks... Now that authorizer appears to be working again, the racks that did not show as high res are indeed showing as high res finally... Off to make music and explore the new version
Has to be the stupid number of GAS racks I own causing the initial hiccup.

[MuttReason]

Tbh. i don't use it yet. In the beginning i've read that it is buggy and laggy. I was afraid that it takes too much power from my CPU. Can someone in this thread tell how much more CPU-use R12 has with the newest version? Much more than 11? (I am running currently Reason 11 Suite). On the other hand i don't know if i need the benefits of 12. If there had been a new synthesizer...maybe. But a sampler... not for me But i am still interested in it.

My experience (on Intel MacBook Pro, Monterey)… R12 is now pretty much as CPU-efficient as R11 and it’s certainly at least as stable as R11. I don’t use VSTs in Reason (either in R11 or R12) and I am running R12 on exactly the same laptop I used to use for R11, so what I’m experiencing is directly comparable I think.

Usual caveats apply… your experience may not be my experience, depends on hardware (Win vs Mac, Mac Intel vs Mac M1) etc etc. But FWIW, after about a dozen or so updates from RS, R12 has gone from a bug-strewn mess to one of the best iterations of Reason I’ve used since I started using Reason back in the v1 days 20+ years ago. It literally never crashes on me now, just keeps ticking along and is super reliable, just like the old days.

[gribbly]

after about a dozen or so updates from RS, R12 has gone from a bug-strewn mess to one of the best iterations of Reason I’ve used since I started using Reason back in the v1 days 20+ years ago. It literally never crashes on me now, just keeps ticking along and is super reliable, just like the old days.

This exactly mirrors my experience. R12.5, as it stands today, is as performant and reliable as Reason has ever been for me (I've also been a user since v1... I think I've installed literally every version, plus Record along the way!). The initial R12 release was definitely surprisingly buggy for a Reason update - for me it was mainly graphical glitches, some slow perf, and some errant/annoying popup dialogs. But it wasn't that bad, and now it's really solid again.

I think using VSTs is a pretty big wildcard. I don't use them (I have a couple just out of curiosity), but my sense is that they have an upside and a downside. The upside is obviously access to a huge array of cool and creative tools, which is awesome - for some projects, the availability of a very specific instrument or effect could be a make or break. The downside is you're now much further outside the Reason "sandbox", with the quality control and stability challenges that brings - and I think a lot of it comes down to individual plugins. It's not like "VSTs are bad", it's like "the quality of VSTs varies widely".

For me, VSTs aren't worth the stability tradeoff. I realize for others it works out the other way!

[moneykube]

The forum has a time limit on edits.

Just what is that time limit btw? Thinking about it, I am pretty sure one 2 line post I made here was uneditable in less then 24 hours with no following comments.

You asked and nobody seems to be having the issue you are having...

It seems there are indeed some here experiencing this issue.

[/quote]
Not sure why you are deleting REs. You have to choose to upgrade REs to hi-res, that does not require deleting. So if they are not the hi-res versions, you have not upgraded them to hi-res.
[/quote]

I think this only applies to those using companion,
or some people don't have a large amount of racks, and sync all does it thing like it is supposed to.

[moneykube]

So what is the time limit
Or was I saying things the overlords disagreed with?
Asking for a friend
BTW the authorizer on my old 2012 laptop, running Mountain Lion OS, with the same amount of racks, runs and works 1000 times better then the new improved authorizer that comes with Reason 12, using the Monterey OS from Apple.
This is something that also needs fixing
The old Authorizer is quick, and Sync all , ACTUALLY WORKS, most of the time, once a rack is in my account.
Unless of course it is the weekend when the servers at Reason Studios tend to go down.

[Arrant]

Back to the original question, R12 is stable at last but it took a year to get there.
VST3 still has some way to go but it's nice to have the option at least.

I agree with Aquila about the inserts, they were better before. So much wasted space now and extra clicks to get there.

Combi 2 is nice, but I haven't created a lot of new combis, no. I like the fact I can control lots of VSTs with it but the remote controller mapping doesn't sit right somehow.

R+ content, I downloaded a lot of packs but don't use them. I find them too small, I like big packs and I cannot lie.

Been flirting with Studio One lately and while it does not beat Reason in every category it certainly feels a lot more modern and smooth.

[fceramic]

I switched to Bitwig. Reason is a mess and the development speed is just embarrassing. I still use the Reason plugin and have been spending a lot of time bouncing Reason projects. Going back to Reason feels like jumping back 15 years. I can't even navigate the arranger in a somewhat normal way and audio editing is such a PITA with the different modes and confusing comping interface. The only thing I'm missing in Bitwig is midi lanes/comping, EVERYTHING else is so much better, faster, and easier than in Reason.

[jam-s]

I've just finished testing R+ and thus R12 with a free trial. While there are some nice new things, I'll wait and see what R13 will bring to the table even if it might take another year until then. So back to R11.

[iTrensharo]

Without Apple Silicon I've removed it from my machines because I'm not going to use it and be forced to run everything under Rosetta 2 on my MBP. I've tried (and own) Logic Pro, and I'm not really interested in moving off Cubase Pro for that. Just not worth the loss of productivity, and I prefer something cross platform. I'm better off using other Synths, Virtual Instruments and MIDI Processors, instead.

I must agree that the development pace is a bit too glacial - at least, for my liking.

I cannot see myself buying anymore Rack Extensions or any Upgrades in the future. I think it's better (for me) to get discrete virtual instruments instead of depending on a Rack of instruments when the developer is this laggard. Otherwise, there is too much potential for inconvenience or disaster (OS/Software updates that break Reason will break everything hosted within it, by extension). REAKTOR 6 (and the Ensembles hosted in it) is another good example of this.

I've been in a bit of a pruning phase and I held off for a few months with Reason, but they are just too damn slow and I'd rather invest my time and my "use" into something a bit more reliably and briskly developed. At this point, I really don't even want to care about it. Lol.

On Windows, it's been largely fine. I do wish it had proper Windows Audio Support, though. I don't consider clutching onto long-deprecated APIs from the Early-Mid 1990s proper platform support in 2023. God, I wish Microsoft would just rip that out of Windows, already.

[crimsonwarlock]

Otherwise, there is too much potential for inconvenience or disaster (OS/Software updates that break Reason will break everything hosted within it, by extension).

Funny, because that is one of the reasons I am using Reason without VST plugins now (as much as possible). If some OS-update breaks the VST framework, or maybe the owner of that spec decides we all need a new VST framework , you are dependent on hundreds of developers to get your stuff running again. All those VST2 plugins that are not maintained anymore will stop working in the (near) future. If something breaks Reason, and by extension all the rack extensions, then there is just one developer who fixes it all and everything will work again.

[tallguy]

I'm good with R12, it works fine on my M1 MacBook. It's very stable.

I did get Bitwig last Christmas and am liking it so far, but it equally gives me lots of appreciation for all the things Reason does really well. Like, it's shocking to see how Bitwig, unlike Reason, doesn't record undos for VSTs. And I do miss the Groove Mixer.

[iTrensharo]

Otherwise, there is too much potential for inconvenience or disaster (OS/Software updates that break Reason will break everything hosted within it, by extension).

Funny, because that is one of the reasons I am using Reason without VST plugins now (as much as possible). If some OS-update breaks the VST framework, or maybe the owner of that spec decides we all need a new VST framework , you are dependent on hundreds of developers to get your stuff running again. All those VST2 plugins that are not maintained anymore will stop working in the (near) future. If something breaks Reason, and by extension all the rack extensions, then there is just one developer who fixes it all and everything will work again.

Lol. Steinberg gets advanced access to OS builds from developers like Microsoft and Apple. By the time a major update is released, Windows has been in Alpha/Beta testing for several months, and I'm pretty sure they get advanced access to macOS for months. Cubase supports nothing but VST3, so the chances of an update breaking the VST3 SDK to the point that users are all left high and dry to this extent is... slim to none.

If any DAWs do suffer from this, than it's more likely an issue with developer prioritization and/or not being able to develop the fixes fast enough than the VST3 SDK itself.

There has never been a major update that broke the VST3 SDK. Most updates that broke plug-ins were on macOS, and it had to do with Apple implementing more stringent Security Measures in the OS.

Literally all of this is avoidable by simply waiting a week or so to avoid the OS update. By then, you should be aware of all the Pros and Cons of it. Day One updates on important production machines are... illogical.

[iTrensharo]

I'm good with R12, it works fine on my M1 MacBook. It's very stable.

I did get Bitwig last Christmas and am liking it so far, but it equally gives me lots of appreciation for all the things Reason does really well. Like, it's shocking to see how Bitwig, unlike Reason, doesn't record undos for VSTs. And I do miss the Groove Mixer.

Some DAWs have VST and Mixer Undo as an option, and sometimes the option is Off by Default.

Not sure what it is with Bitwig, because the trial lasted like 10 minutes before I uninstalled it. I do know I have seen similar options in other DAWs' preferences, though.

[crimsonwarlock]

Lol. Steinberg gets advanced access to OS builds from developers like Microsoft and Apple. By the time a major update is released, Windows has been in Alpha/Beta testing for several months, and I'm pretty sure they get advanced access to macOS for months. Cubase supports nothing but VST3, so the chances of an update breaking the VST3 SDK to the point that users are all left high and dry to this extent is... slim to none.

Yep, you obviously didn't get my point

I'll try again: The introduction of VST3 means that eventually VST2 support will be fased out. How fast that will happen depends on the DAW developer, but you can expect Cubase just to be the first. That means that you are depending on the plugin developers to update their plugins to VST3. Many have done that already, but others have not yet and simply may not. And ALL vst2 plugins that won't be updated to VST3 because their developers stopped developing, will stop working indefinitely.

And if you think VST2 compatibility will remain in all DAWs, think again. If future updates of an OS breaks VST2 SDK compatibility, the DAW developers have no options to keep their VST2 implementation working and will remove it from their DAW. And that is besides the economic issue of keeping an old standard up to date in your software in regard of actual use of that old standard. Most DAW developers will drop VST2 support way before any compatibility issues arise.

TLDR; The VST3 introduction will break VST2 compatibility in the (near) future, and there is no way to solve that problem. All your VST2 plugins will be worthless.

[jam-s]

TLDR; The VST3 introduction will break VST2 compatibility in the (near) future, and there is no way to solve that problem. All your VST2 plugins will be worthless.

That's a bit extreme as there are and still will be VST2-to-VST3 bridging solutions.

[crimsonwarlock]

That's a bit extreme as there are and still will be VST2-to-VST3 bridging solutions.

Which also cost time/money to maintain, and therefore bring the same dependency problems as the plugins.

[ltbrunt00]

I am loving Reason 12. They added VST3 I am good for now. I don't want Reason Studios to rush anything. I hope Reason 13 is something epic.

[jam-s]

That's a bit extreme as there are and still will be VST2-to-VST3 bridging solutions.

Which also cost time/money to maintain, and therefore bring the same dependency problems as the plugins.

Sure and it can be a possible business case for another party other than the DAW maker or it could possibly also work as a collective open source project.

[iTrensharo]

Lol. Steinberg gets advanced access to OS builds from developers like Microsoft and Apple. By the time a major update is released, Windows has been in Alpha/Beta testing for several months, and I'm pretty sure they get advanced access to macOS for months. Cubase supports nothing but VST3, so the chances of an update breaking the VST3 SDK to the point that users are all left high and dry to this extent is... slim to none.

Yep, you obviously didn't get my point

I'll try again: The introduction of VST3 means that eventually VST2 support will be fased out. How fast that will happen depends on the DAW developer, but you can expect Cubase just to be the first. That means that you are depending on the plugin developers to update their plugins to VST3. Many have done that already, but others have not yet and simply may not. And ALL vst2 plugins that won't be updated to VST3 because their developers stopped developing, will stop working indefinitely.

And if you think VST2 compatibility will remain in all DAWs, think again. If future updates of an OS breaks VST2 SDK compatibility, the DAW developers have no options to keep their VST2 implementation working and will remove it from their DAW. And that is besides the economic issue of keeping an old standard up to date in your software in regard of actual use of that old standard. Most DAW developers will drop VST2 support way before any compatibility issues arise.

TLDR; The VST3 introduction will break VST2 compatibility in the (near) future, and there is no way to solve that problem. All your VST2 plugins will be worthless.

I got your point. You didn't get mine.

My point is that the chances of the VST3 SDK being broken on the release of practically any major platform update is slim to none, because Steinberg has too much at stake to not put as many developers as possible to get the job done. This will not happen, and it has never happened in 20 years of Apple breaking things whenever they could on macOS. They get advanced releases of the SDK, and they fix whatever problems pop up in the Alphas/Betas and plug-in developers will rebuild and issue updates. It's a pretty simple affair, frankly. The only thing you wait on is for Developers to release plug-in updates, but that goes for any DAW and any plugin architecture (AU plugins weren't except while VST2/3 and AAX were affected).

Beyond that, I think Steinberg would be a lot faster in fixing the VST3 SDK than Reason Studios would be at fixing a broken Reason DAW, so I would always take my chances with Steinberg and the more agile plug-in developers.

Almost all of my plug-ins are M1 Native, at this point, and every other macOS-compatible DAW that I do or have used is M1 Native, at this point. Reason really is the only product I own that isn't. Lol. I don't even have Rosetta 2 installed on my MBP.

[iTrensharo]

TLDR; The VST3 introduction will break VST2 compatibility in the (near) future, and there is no way to solve that problem. All your VST2 plugins will be worthless.

That's a bit extreme as there are and still will be VST2-to-VST3 bridging solutions.

Bridging solutions will be worthless on macOS once Rosetta 2 goes away, as they are all Intel Code. It will only work on Intel Macs,a nd aside from Mac Pros and iMac Pros those machines generally feel decidedly low end compared to M1 Pro/M2 machines getting released today. Even the M1 Machines were competitive, if not better, than i9 MBPs (thermal constraints due to design likely played some role in that).

Personally, I am more than fine with abandoning developers who don't make the move to VST3. I don't think it is even worth investing in them. They have had far too long to move to VST3, by now. There is literally no excuse for it.

[Jac459]

Personally, I am more than fine with abandoning developers who don't make the move to VST3. I don't think it is even worth investing in them. They have had far too long to move to VST3, by now. There is literally no excuse for it.

I theory I agree with you. In practice, there are a few A-List plugins that haven't jumped yet.
Spire from reveal sound is one of them. I don't use it as much as before, but for SAW Leads, and dance stuffs, it is unmatched in my opinion. I own Phase Plant, Serum, Pigments, but none does the kind of sound like spire... (maybe Synapse Antidote is the nearest).
So basically, even if these vendors have no excuse (especially as they continue to sell these plugins at high price), it is a bit frustrating...

Fortunately Spire has a RE version...

[dvdrtldg]

Fortunately Spire has a RE version...

Did that ever get fixed? I remember it being very buggy and a lot of people being very angry