ReasonTalk.com

It looks like Steinberg has forced all developers in the current SDK for VST 3 to discontinue VST 2, both in the plugins and in the DAWs ! The whole thing should then be implemented with the next update of the DAW or the plugin.
So in the next update of Reason or any vst plugin you cant use vst 2 any more. Today I received an update from uhe for Filterscape and Satin stating that vst 2 is no longer offered. I think others will be following.

here is an actual thread on kvr:
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8875743

Steinberg has the monopoly on VST, which is never good. Time to go on open source CLAP format for all developer

A good few devs using JUCE are having problems with VST3 in Reason and Cubase. Slow loading times, crashes etc. VST2 versions work as expected.

Another good reason for me to go RE exclusively. Luckily, the only VST I can't replace with an RE (yet) is already VST3 now.

maybe devs should just use the old SDK

Newer isn't always better, in a lot of cases.

It's strange to witness how fast the destruction of Digital History is happening in front of my eyes. Not all VST2 devs are still alive and recreate on VST3.

In a few months or years it will be as if they never existed, like an old faded memory.

bxbrkrz wrote: ↑

28 Mar 2024

It's strange to witness how fast the destruction of Digital History is happening in front of my eyes. Not all VST2 devs are still alive and recreate on VST3.

In a few months or years it will be as if they never existed, like an old faded memory.

32bit --> 64bit ???

Mac OS updated ???

DirectX plugins ???

Loque wrote: ↑

28 Mar 2024

bxbrkrz wrote: ↑

28 Mar 2024

It's strange to witness how fast the destruction of Digital History is happening in front of my eyes. Not all VST2 devs are still alive and recreate on VST3.

In a few months or years it will be as if they never existed, like an old faded memory.

32bit --> 64bit ???

Mac OS updated ???

DirectX plugins ???

All of the above, and then some. Digital History archives nothing.
https://gamehistory.org/87percent/


Archaeologists have discovered the world's oldest known cave painting, a life-sized picture of a wild pig made at least 45,500 years ago in the Leang Tedongnge cave on the Indonesian island of Sulawesi.13 The painting is likely the earliest known work of art in the world, and it was made using uranium-series analysis of the calcium carbonate deposits that form naturally on the cave wall surface used as a 'canvas' for the art.2 The oldest date given to an animal cave painting is now a depiction of several human figures hunting pigs in the caves in the Maros-Pangkep karst of South Sulawesi, dated to be over 43,900 years old.0 The oldest known cave painting is a red hand stencil made by a Neanderthal over 64,000 years ago in the Maltravieso cave in Cáceres, Spain.

I wonder what this means for a Reason 13 update?
If I understand this right, with the next Update Reason Studios needs to drop VST2 support!

This can‘t be good for Reason Studios and a possible update to Reason 13. Who will buy the update and give up VST2 support?

VST3 to VST2 bridge plugins should work -- like Kushview Element or Bluecat Patchwork.

riemac wrote: ↑

28 Mar 2024

This can‘t be good for Reason Studios and a possible update to Reason 13. Who will buy the update and give up VST2 support?

Same is true for Ableton, Bitwig, Studio One, (you name it)... they are all in the same boat.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I can't quite believe Steinberg would enforce this but I'm watching with interest.
The CLAP community will be pissing themselves laughing...

CLAP support might perspectively might be a good thing

tanni wrote: ↑

28 Mar 2024

It looks like Steinberg has forced all developers in the current SDK for VST 3 to discontinue VST 2, both in the plugins and in the DAWs ! The whole thing should then be implemented with the next update of the DAW or the plugin.
So in the next update of Reason or any vst plugin you cant use vst 2 any more. Today I received an update from uhe for Filterscape and Satin stating that vst 2 is no longer offered. I think others will be following.

here is an actual thread on kvr:
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8875743

Steinberg has the monopoly on VST, which is never good. Time to go on open source CLAP format for all developer

That thread tells me nothing useful, or I didn’t go back far enough to find all the details. I don’t know how they can force Reason to drop VST2 support, but maybe there’s something in the SDK I’m not familiar with.

FWIW, VST2 support was dropped in Jan 2022 (two years ago) according to this:
https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... scontinued

Can anyone find info about where a DAW (e.g. Reason) can no longer support VST2 plugins?

selig wrote: ↑

30 Mar 2024

tanni wrote: ↑

28 Mar 2024

It looks like Steinberg has forced all developers in the current SDK for VST 3 to discontinue VST 2, both in the plugins and in the DAWs ! The whole thing should then be implemented with the next update of the DAW or the plugin.
So in the next update of Reason or any vst plugin you cant use vst 2 any more. Today I received an update from uhe for Filterscape and Satin stating that vst 2 is no longer offered. I think others will be following.

here is an actual thread on kvr:
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8875743

Steinberg has the monopoly on VST, which is never good. Time to go on open source CLAP format for all developer

That thread tells me nothing useful, or I didn’t go back far enough to find all the details. I don’t know how they can force Reason to drop VST2 support, but maybe there’s something in the SDK I’m not familiar with.

FWIW, VST2 support was dropped in Jan 2022 (two years ago) according to this:
https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... scontinued

Can anyone find info about where a DAW (e.g. Reason) can no longer support VST2 plugins?

The suggestion is that future versions of everything will not be permitted to include VST2 support, even the current release already does.
No idea how it will be policed or enforced. There is a thread on KVR, including a link to the new Steinberg licence agreement:

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=608115

selig wrote: ↑

30 Mar 2024

I don’t know how they can force Reason to drop VST2 support, but maybe there’s something in the SDK I’m not familiar with.

Looking at the VST3 license agreement, there's this nugget (under 9.3):

Steinberg is entitled to terminate this Agreement with 24 months written notice. For the validity of the
termination, it shall be sufficient that Steinberg sends the termination to the last known email address
of the Licensee.

I'm pretty sure the VST2 license has a similar text. I think we can be sure that Reason Studios got that email quite a while ago. It might even be possible this forced their hand in implementing VST3 support in Reason.

I also haven't read too far into the thread. But I'm going to guess that Steinberg is addressing the VST developers, -no further authority to release plugins in VST2 format. It's what the original KVR post (from Audiority) is talking about. Existing VST2 plugins will continue to work, and DAWS, etc. won't be prevented from hosting VST2, but no further release of VST2-format plugins or updates. That's my take.

Whether or not the legal jargon insinuates DAW's can't host VST2, it's hard to imagine Steinberg would enforce this, for reasons mentioned by other posters. For Steinberg's own self-interest, It would not be good PR for them to paralyze all of our old projects that utilize VST2 plugins, etc. It would also create paranoia that they could do the same to VST3, putting every major plugin-maker out of business, since CLAP is not so universal yet.

So I say, relax. Our old VST2's will continue to work, Reason 13 will still support them, and in the mean-time we have all been migrating to VST3 anyway, have we not?

NMHindman wrote: ↑

30 Mar 2024

For Steinberg's own self-interest, It would not be good PR for them to paralyze all of our old projects that utilize VST2 plugins, etc.

They already made that decision, as Cubase 13 cannot use VST2 plugins. So, if they have no problem forcing their own users, how big of an issue do you think they'll have forcing users of every other (competing) DAW. It is actually in their interest to force VST2 compatibility out of competing DAWs, as those DAWs are currently competing by still having VST2 support while Cubase doesn't have it any longer.

crimsonwarlock wrote: ↑

30 Mar 2024

NMHindman wrote: ↑

30 Mar 2024

For Steinberg's own self-interest, It would not be good PR for them to paralyze all of our old projects that utilize VST2 plugins, etc.

They already made that decision, as Cubase 13 cannot use VST2 plugins. So, if they have no problem forcing their own users, how big of an issue do you think they'll have forcing users of every other (competing) DAW. It is actually in their interest to force VST2 compatibility out of competing DAWs, as those DAWs are currently competing by still having VST2 support while Cubase doesn't have it any longer.

Your karma just ran over my dogma! So be it. However, I still don't get what Steinberg is thinking. It's beyond competition with other DAWS, and genuinely brutal. If it's about Cubase not having VST2 vs. other DAWS, it would be better business for them to reverse that decision. I'm truly trying to be their corporate advocate here. And never mind VST2. If I'm UAD or PA or Waves, I'm concerned they could do the same with VST3 and put me out of business. And as a plebeian user, such an action is enough to keep someone like my passive self from ever considering purchasing a Steinberg product. I think these and other results can be nothing but bad for Steinberg.

madmacman wrote: ↑

29 Mar 2024

riemac wrote: ↑

28 Mar 2024

This can‘t be good for Reason Studios and a possible update to Reason 13. Who will buy the update and give up VST2 support?

Same is true for Ableton, Bitwig, Studio One, (you name it)... they are all in the same boat.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I suppose one option for DAW users who upgrade (say to Reason 13) is to keep Reason 12 on their machine too, for VST2 access, or for old song files that used VST2 plugins. This would apply to other DAWs as well, so the DAW companies can go ahead and market upgrades without fear of their users losing access to old VST2 projects.

I asked AI and linked to this thread It said this:

The forum discussion you linked likely stems from a misunderstanding or misinformation about VST2 licensing. While Steinberg created the VST format, they don't have control over how other DAWs choose to implement it.

Here's a breakdown:

VST2 is a plugin format, not a DAW format.
Steinberg can dictate licensing terms for VST2 plugin developers, but not DAW companies.
DAW companies have the freedom to choose which plugin formats they support in their software.
Steinberg's decision to discontinue VST2 support only affects their own products and VST2 plugin developers. Other DAW companies can continue supporting VST2 if they choose to do so.

NMHindman wrote: ↑

30 Mar 2024

Your karma just ran over my dogma! So be it.

NMHindman wrote: ↑

30 Mar 2024

However, I still don't get what Steinberg is thinking. It's beyond competition with other DAWS, and genuinely brutal.

Oh, I do agree with you on that. Forced removing of any legacy support is a dumb strategy tmo. If individual DAW developers would decide to drop VST2 support, then that is their decision, but forcing them to do so is stupid... or evil, you choose

My guess is that developers of bit-bridges and plugin-wrappers will find a way around this issue. There are too many legacy VST2 plugins that won't be ported to VST3, simply because the developers are no longer around, and other valid reasons. Someone will come up with a solution.

Steinberg might come to regret this.

We already have the CLAP format. This could force other DAWs to band together to commit to an open standard that no one company controls.

DaveyG wrote: ↑

30 Mar 2024

selig wrote: ↑

30 Mar 2024

That thread tells me nothing useful, or I didn’t go back far enough to find all the details. I don’t know how they can force Reason to drop VST2 support, but maybe there’s something in the SDK I’m not familiar with.

FWIW, VST2 support was dropped in Jan 2022 (two years ago) according to this:
https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-u ... scontinued

Can anyone find info about where a DAW (e.g. Reason) can no longer support VST2 plugins?

The suggestion is that future versions of everything will not be permitted to include VST2 support, even the current release already does.
No idea how it will be policed or enforced. There is a thread on KVR, including a link to the new Steinberg licence agreement:

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=608115

the only thing I could see is about dropped support for SDK 2.0, which only affects developers as I understand it. i can’t find anything that talks about how this affects VST hosts/devs - do DAW devs even pay a license fee to host VSTs (seems odd if so)?

I trust the AI answer on this one (see above). It was pretty convinced it knew the right answer even when I pushed against the answers it gave, it kept reassuring me that people in the forum are misunderstanding or are misinformed

selig wrote: ↑

30 Mar 2024

DaveyG wrote: ↑

30 Mar 2024

The suggestion is that future versions of everything will not be permitted to include VST2 support, even the current release already does.
No idea how it will be policed or enforced. There is a thread on KVR, including a link to the new Steinberg licence agreement:

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=608115

the only thing I could see is about dropped support for SDK 2.0, which only affects developers as I understand it. i can’t find anything that talks about how this affects VST hosts/devs - do DAW devs even pay a license fee to host VSTs (seems odd if so)?

I honestly don't know. I do know that there are quite a few forums that seem to think it will end all DAW support for VST2, perhaps more than the usual Internet scare-mongering. Also, in that KVR thread you'll see Urs from uh-e rattling his sabre and pushing the CLAP format that uh-e jointly designed with Bitwig, so he's not exactly unbiassed. But it still feels like there is fire behind all the smoke. I guess time will tell. It's not like we can influence it.