String me up

[Taff]

Back on my strings fixation guys.

I'd like to build some strings combinators, as "go to's" for doing my stuff.

I'd like one each for solo cello, viola, bass and violin, and one each for string sections of the same instruments, hopefully to get the most realistic string sounds I can.

I have chambre strings, and miroslav strings as well as various bits and bobs, (and the orchestra sting banks.)

I've not had much (anything really) to do with making combis before, and would welcome some general do's and dont's.

Also, any thoughts on which NN-XT patches would be best for this, and how you woudl set up the NN-XT's involved.

Not much to ask I know, Fire away though, all help gratefully received!!

[WongoTheSane]

As you have the Chambre ReFill, I would advise to take a look at what they've done for instance in the "Mix" patches (Chambre/1-Combinator Instruments/1-Chambre Acoustic Instruments/Mix xxx (several variations available). Basically, a number of NN-XT are connected to a 6-2 Line Mixer (which allows to set the relative volumes and panning of each of the NN-XT patches), which is then send to a reverb (used as an insert but you can use it as a send too in the Line Mixer) and then to a compressor and a stereo imager.

Don't forget you can do split-keyboard patches by using the programmer on the combinator (click on the device and set the Key Range), it can make it easier to compose with Cellos on the bottom and violins on the top for instance.

I would tend to avoid mix-and-matching patches which already feature reverb with dry ones, as it's quite difficult to balance.

Regarding panning, it can help a great deal with realism knowing how real instruments are placed in a real orchestra (type "orchestra placement" in Google Images, lots of examples). For instance, your cellos and basses will be slightly to the right while the altos will be to the left. There is a bit more reverb on the brass because they're at the back of the orchestra. First violins have a tad less reverb than the other chairs because they're closer to the audience, etc.

In my (limited) experience, solo violins are very difficult to program realistically. It needs a lot of attention to glides, velocities, legatos, swells, spiccati and other frills to make it work, and it's very difficult to mix sources from different ReFills/RE devices because the sound is very different from one another (while it's much easier for groups, as it gives character). I usually stack several patches in a combi and slap an EQ on each of them to select the frequency range that's best in each patch.

It is sometimes interesting to grab the attack of one patch and the sustain of another, but in that case you'll have to edit the patches themselves (shortening the envelope on the first one and increasing the attack on the second one), as it cannot be done with the Line Mixer itself (because of polyphony). Each can be further modulated by velocity.

I found that low brass (tuba/horns) help in masking the cellos/bass imperfections in the low frequency range. Works better for big orchestras than for chamber music, obviously.

One trick I've found is to create one track/instrument per voicing, even with the same patch. That allows to pitch bend one of the notes while the others play normally. For instance, the low voice plays a D, the high voice plays an A, and the middle voice plays a G and pitch bends to an F. If you played chords on just one track, the pitch bend would affect all voices. The pitch bend in itself is often unrealistic on a single instrument but within a ensemble, it yields good results.

Just my two cents!

[Taff]

Wow, many thanks mate!!

[selig]

To add to the excellent post from WongoTheSane:
Assuming you're going for realism…
Also do some basic research on doubling: which instruments are often playing the same line in unison or octaves with other instruments. This can have a huge affect on recreating realistic scores.
Also, although it takes more time, consider playing each part individually, including doubles. Don't copy/paste horizontally or vertically if possible. Don't ever play chords!
I often use some solo instruments along with the group samples, again playing each part separately for added realism. I will often double parts with similar samples from different libraries to create a bigger sound and avoid sounding like one library. I use Orkester, Miroslav, Euphonics, and recently added Encore.
For string bends/glissandos, I learned an unexpected technique years ago from someone (sorry, can't remember who) on the old PUF. It works unexpectedly well, and involves using Neptune to do the bends/slides instead of shifting the sample. For whatever reasons, it sounds much more realistic IMO, and isn't something I would have ever considered doing myself!

So I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not sure there's a need to build any combinators. I would instead consider building a template song that has all instruments on separate tracks so that you can start with all the parts/instruments you may need at your fingertips.

Finally, if you want to educate yourself and have the time, take an arrangement you like and try to replicate it in Reason. The last time I did this, I took a track I'd probably never think would be possible to do in Reason, just to see if I could even come close to duplicating it. Judge for yourself (this uses the Neptune trick for the violin slides around 0:30).

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[esselfortium]

That Neptune pitch-shifting trick works surprisingly well in your demo, thanks for passing it along!

[WongoTheSane]

For string bends/glissandos, I learned an unexpected technique years ago from someone (sorry, can't remember who) on the old PUF. It works unexpectedly well, and involves using Neptune to do the bends/slides instead of shifting the sample. For whatever reasons, it sounds much more realistic IMO, and isn't something I would have ever considered doing myself!

I was about to post a topic asking "how do you create realistic string bends because pitch bend doesn't do it"... That answers the question, it sounds great in your cover!! Thanks!!

[Taff]

Thanks all!

[zumBeispiel]

I would instead consider building a template song that has all instruments on separate tracks so that you can start with all the parts/instruments you may need at your fingertips.

Thank you.

[esselfortium]

Hmm, I tried the Neptune trick on some strings last night and couldn't get results like your demo. When I tried with chords, it struggled audibly to process pitch at all, and when I tried with single notes, it sounded more artificial than using pitch bend on StringWerk or NN-XT. I'm not sure what magic you worked there...

[selig]

Hmm, I tried the Neptune trick on some strings last night and couldn't get results like your demo. When I tried with chords, it struggled audibly to process pitch at all, and when I tried with single notes, it sounded more artificial than using pitch bend on StringWerk or NN-XT. I'm not sure what magic you worked there...

Real strings don't play chords, and don't often slide a chord "parallel" as Neptune will.

I had a similar experience at first (not getting satisfactory results) - allow me to load the original file and take a look. I tried to find the original youtube video describing the technique, but couldn't…

OK, looking back at the file, I see I put Neptune in a Combinator with NNXT. I set the NNXT to mono (1 voice), and have Neptune ALSO tracking the MIDI notes played. Finally, I always bend UP to the destination note because that's the note (in my case) that plays the longest (and I want that note to NOT be "bent").



When you solo the patch, you may hear minor glitching if you don't clean up the MIDI notes after playing the part - here's what the MIDI note track looks like for the violin at around 0:30:


I also layered the solo violin with a group sample, and added a "run" sample under the octave bends to add realism.

[esselfortium]

Thanks for the more detailed explanation!

[Taff]

Thanks to the excellent advice here my strings are now sounding a bit fair bit better. I've found the "resonant violin" combinator patch is fantastic.

I've not used neptune*, but may try playing with that too.




*Mind you, I've never used a Kong or a Dr Rex either, let alone 50% or more of the effects.

[littlejam]

hello,

just listening in

thanks,

j

[decibel]

https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/re-strings/