Piano Not Cutting Through the Mix

[Creativemind]

Hi All!

Working on a dance track with a piano sample in it but the piano isn't cutting through the mix when it gets busy.

I know EQ would probably be the fixer here but how...would you sort this out at the mix stage or the mastering stage. I'm presuming mix stage but this sort of thing totally eludes me.

Hmmmm...where do I start? what do I do?

Thank You in advance.

[esselfortium]

One thing that I've bumped into a number of times when struggling to get something to cut through a busy mix, is the tendency to keep boosting high frequencies in every instrument in an attempt to add clarity to it, and ending up with a mix where nothing stands out the way it should.

So my first thought is to try reducing or lowpass-filtering out some high frequencies from other instruments in your mix, to see if that helps clear up some space for the piano. Even if it feels counterintuitive to clear up a mix by reducing high end so drastically, I'm usually pleasantly surprised by how much clearer and more focused a mix sounds after that.

Depending on how your song is structured, you might want to automate the EQ or filtering on your other high-frequency-occupying instruments, so that they can fill the space when you need them to be the focus, but have them step back a bit when the piano needs to be heard.

[normen]

Yep, if something doesn't get through don't mess with that channel, mess with those that cover it up.

[Creativemind]

One thing that I've bumped into a number of times when struggling to get something to cut through a busy mix, is the tendency to keep boosting high frequencies in every instrument in an attempt to add clarity to it, and ending up with a mix where nothing stands out the way it should.

So my first thought is to try reducing or lowpass-filtering out some high frequencies from other instruments in your mix, to see if that helps clear up some space for the piano. Even if it feels counterintuitive to clear up a mix by reducing high end so drastically, I'm usually pleasantly surprised by how much clearer and more focused a mix sounds after that.

Depending on how your song is structured, you might want to automate the EQ or filtering on your other high-frequency-occupying instruments, so that they can fill the space when you need them to be the focus, but have them step back a bit when the piano needs to be heard.

Great tips there esselfortium...on listening back to where the piano starts, it's cushioned in at that point by a crash cymbal which is what I tend to favour in my house tracks. I just muted the crash and although the piano there is still a little hidden it's only a touch so it's mainly separating the crash and start of the piano.

Looking at the spectrum EQ on both of these elements, what should I been looking for / at / doing?

EDIT - Been looking at the range of the strike when the piano kicks in on the Spectrum EQ. You can't hold or freeze the spectrum analysis on it. Hmmm. Anyway from looking at the piano it has the most content is 170hz to 640hz then there's a drop there and the highest peak nearly reaches 30dB.

For the crash, seems like there's no content till 320hz and it doesn't reach too high decibel wise, just reaches 0dB at it's peak and then there's a little dip, then another load of content in the crash from 2.6khz to 10khz.

[esselfortium]

The crash cymbal probably isn't something you want to drastically cut high frequencies from, unless they're already extremely boosted.

I'd suggest trying the steps in this video -- it's such a basic technique that I didn't think I'd get much out of watching it, but watching and trying to just follow it by the book was very worthwhile for me, so hopefully it will be for you, too!

[Creativemind]

The crash cymbal probably isn't something you want to drastically cut high frequencies from, unless they're already extremely boosted.

I'd suggest trying the steps in this video -- it's such a basic technique that I didn't think I'd get much out of watching it, but watching and trying to just follow it by the book was very worthwhile for me, so hopefully it will be for you, too!

Good video that. I've watched it before. I feel I understood and learnt more from it now though as it's something I'm trying to achieve now, separation in my mix.

I've got into a bad habit of using Saturation Knob to add volume though...naughty I know. It doesn't make anything worse though, or does it?

So with this piano, he doesn't cover this in the video. How would you high pass or low pass filter that?

[esselfortium]

I would try lowpass filtering (or just using a high shelf to somewhat reduce the higher frequencies) on some other instruments in your mix, rather than necessarily filtering the piano further. The idea is to eliminate the parts that are stepping on your piano.

It might be worth going through all your mix channels and starting with just the piano soloed, then adding each channel and trying to determine at what point it starts to get crowded, to help narrow down where you might need to look. (Though in all likelihood, it's a combination of things, rather than just one instrument.)

Another possibility is that reverb or other send effects could be the culprit. The mixer has mute buttons for the send effects, so those can be useful to get a quick idea of whether one of them might be causing trouble in your mix.

You can also try finding what frequencies of the piano feel most vital to its clarity, and specifically reducing those on your other instruments. There's probably some science to identifying what those frequencies would be, but I just do trial-and-error, boosting an EQ band all the way and sweeping across it to hear what sound is coming from each part of the frequency range. After I've chosen a frequency or two to focus on as crucial to the piano's clarity, I'd either reduce those frequencies on a few select instruments that I'm considering possible culprits, or just send basically everything but the piano into a new bus channel, so I can cut those frequencies from all of them at the same time. That always feels like a dirty trick, but it can be pretty effective!

If none of this works, and there's really just a lot of competing high-frequency content in your mix that can't be eliminated without detracting from the intended sound, there are still some other options.

One is to make more use of stereo panning. Sending some competing sounds to different parts of the stereo field can help make room for them. I like to use LFO-controlled circular panning sweeps on synth arpeggios and spacey leads to simultaneously add some movement to them while also clearing up the center of the mix. (Well, somewhat...)

Another possibility, and this is the painful one that probably none of us ever want to hear, is to reconsider whether all of the sounds in your song are really suited to go with each other. Sometimes mix problems can be worked around by transposing an instrument an octave up or down, changing it to a different patch, or reducing its complexity (i.e. using a smaller range of notes in pad chords, or removing sections to make a melody sparser). With a lot of effort, you might be able to fix things to work without taking this route (and I'm generally one to exhaust every other possibility first!), but this is still arguably one of the cleaner solutions to decluttering a mix, if you can stomach it.

[grizelda]

One thing that I've bumped into a number of times when struggling to get something to cut through a busy mix, is the tendency to keep boosting high frequencies in every instrument in an attempt to add clarity to it, and ending up with a mix where nothing stands out the way it should.

So my first thought is to try reducing or lowpass-filtering out some high frequencies from other instruments in your mix, to see if that helps clear up some space for the piano. Even if it feels counterintuitive to clear up a mix by reducing high end so drastically, I'm usually pleasantly surprised by how much clearer and more focused a mix sounds after that.

Depending on how your song is structured, you might want to automate the EQ or filtering on your other high-frequency-occupying instruments, so that they can fill the space when you need them to be the focus, but have them step back a bit when the piano needs to be heard...

...I'd suggest trying the steps in this video -- it's such a basic technique that I didn't think I'd get much out of watching it, but watching and trying to just follow it by the book was very worthwhile for me, so hopefully it will be for you, too!

this is among some of the best advice/tips ive read on this site. simple as it sounds (no pun intended) the overall effect high and low pass eq can have on your basic mix is incredible. i had also watched that video before and yes i did previously use LP and HP but no way neeear as much as i should have and usually with each instrument solo'd and not getting any idea how the cuts sounded in the overall mix. i read this at a time of need regarding a project ive been "mixing" down for ages and the difference after an hour or so of eq mixing (no boosts at all) is massive. thank you bro for helping us realise something that was right in front of our eyes the whole time

[Creativemind]

Yes excellent advice.

I've just realised the importance (looks at that video) of a better acoustic guitar, better mic and layering up the guitars.

Would anyone here use a dynamic mic (singular) for recording acoustic or is 2 pencil condensers better? Noticed on that video that all 4 guitars were recorded mono too.

[Aikmofobi]

Sure, whatever suits the mix better is the best choice. Use a bloody SM57 in different positions just to try it. And yes, mono truly is gods gift to clean mixes.

[Edouardo]

The solution: Frequency selective side chain compression.

Basically, each time the piano plays, you compress automatically the other instruments that play in the same range of frequencies. But when you do that, you only cut their spectra in the same frequency range that your piano uses. Then it is up to you to set up the attack and release to get the 'cutting through' that you want for your piano.

You do not need any REs to do that, and you can easily set it up in the Rack with Reason standard M-class modules. Once you get used to the technique, it is super easy. I use it all the time in my prods.

I made a tutorial video on this, check it out:

[esselfortium]

The solution: Frequency selective side chain compression.

Basically, each time the piano plays, you compress automatically the other instruments that play in the same range of frequencies. But when you do that, you only cut their spectra in the same frequency range that your piano uses. Then it is up to you to set up the attack and release to get the 'cutting through' that you want for your piano.

You do not need any REs to do that, and you can easily set it up in the Rack with Reason standard M-class modules. Once you get used to the technique, it is super easy. I use it all the time in my prods.

I made a tutorial video on this, check it out:

This is a fantastic trick, too! Thanks for reminding me about it Years ago I used something similar to it to clear up some muffled bass, but mine was a bit jankier -- I sent the kick drum into Scream4's Audio->CV and used that output to automate a Combinator knob that was set to cut an EQ band on a bass synth. The way shown in the video seems like it gives some better control over the results. It takes a bit of setup however you do it, but the results can be surprisingly transparent!