Wishing for a VST Bridge in Reason

[normen]

I just don't wanna make it a flame war but if you don't like it don't use it. I'm suggesting in a good way not to offend you or anything. However, lets say you have a Rack which is capable of holding VST and AU and that Rack is like Bitwig studio sandboxed and it doesn't crash the host and you can do your scanning via that Rack. What is the negative side of that? if you are not a fun of VST and AU don't use that Rack. Hey I really love to put my UAD horse power to support Reason.

Well I guess his point is rather that if theres VST support you'll hear from many developers "We won't do a RE version, use the VST" and you'll never get one-click install.. Sure, for many VSTs you'll hear that anyway...

[mreese80]

I would love to be able to use vsts. And those who aré against having vsts in reason dont have to use them. Those of us who want this feature in reason shouldnt have to deprived of this just because some aré against it.

[normen]

I would love to be able to use vsts. And those who aré against having vsts in reason dont have to use them. Those of us who want this feature in reason shouldnt have to deprived of this just because some aré against it.

That some users are against it isn't the reason, its that the Props didn't want to implement it. And as was said so many times, you can use standalone instruments with Reason no problem.

And don't _you_ think that adding support for VSTs would lessen the incentive to actually port plugins to RE? I think thats the main reason some people are completely against it - not that they'd get a feature they can very well simply ignore.

[Benedict]

Practically speaking, while it seems simple enough to feel that a VST could run inside a Combinator type thingee that was a VST host, that would not make that VST a fully integrated member of the Rack and Reason environment.

Surely if a VST Host Combi was as easy as many would like to think, Props or a third party Dev would have made one by now. Even if Props nixed it at the Shop, they would be showing it in action on YouTube.

Sure it would seem a step forward to have the wealth of VSTs out there pluggable into the Rack but they would be second class citizens. While getting MIDI In and Audio Out working would be great today, how are Props going to bridge CVs into the VST space, esp if there is no standard in the VST SDK for CV control? Also how to manage the dichotomy of REs being same dimension vs VST being and shape the Dev desired? Yes I hear the argument that you could just float the VST but that is not the Rack paradigm that is the core of Reason.

Reason is different. VST would bring some things but let's also be aware that with every feature added to any software there are sacrifices, something is taken away; e.g. Reaper has trillions (sic) of features but it is not easy to use at all.

[househoppin09]

Yeah, aside from all of the many, many other serious obstacles to implementing VST support in Reason, it's worth pointing out that to do so would necessarily alter the Reason landscape in many fundamental ways. It wouldn't just be a matter of "if you don't like it, don't use it". The entire Reason culture would change. There would be a massive influx of new users, which would be great in some ways, but would also mark a major turning point that might well see Reason evolve into an entirely different kind of DAW. This would undoubtedly be more than worth it for some of us, while others of us would be appalled by the changes. Be careful what you wish for! It's not just some feature. It would be such a huge deal that it would really open up a Pandora's box, in ways both good and bad but definitely irreversible.

[Catblack]

My pet theory has been that the Propellerheads will make a super stripped down version of Reason, a wrapper if you will, that will install as a VST and then run Rack Extensions inside it. So that way VST users don't have to buy full version of Reason to access the RE format, and it all (magically, I have no idea how) runs as a VST. Perhaps with a very limited rack that includes a hardware/midi interface that ties into the VST wrapper. That way the Props still get a cut of shop sales, users still have to sign in to use it or authorize their computers, it uses the same copy protection as Reason, etc.

I know, it sounds crazy and I have no evidence they are doing this. It's just a hunch. But I believe there are other VST bundle packages that are charging quite a bit out there with their own shops and copy protections. We already have Rewire, so it still makes no sense to bring VSTs into Reason. Instead it makes more sense for the Props to do something like I describe here and bring more customers to their shop. (Even though there may be technically impossible hurdles to it.)

So instead (in my theory) you won't get a VST bridge in Reason, you'll get a Rack Extension bridge in the VST world.

[joeyluck]

Well Reason Essentials is only $69 and supports Rack Extensions and ReWire. So if a user's goal is to have an inexpensive version of Reason to simply host Rack Extensions and to ReWire it with other software...that would be a great solution/suggestion for those folks looking to do that.

[Catblack]

I didn't realize Essentials was so cheap. But I still am going to stick with my crackpot theory that something like essentials without the sequencer is going to come out for cheaper -- and installable as a VST. I'm so tired of the "bring VSTs into Reason" talk that I'm just going to stand in the corner and go "no, I bet they do the opposite of that."

[Raveshaper]

This has been discussed to death many times over many years, but seems to be on the rise.
Still waiting for the official "c'mon props!" meme tee shirt to come out.

Anyway, my feeling is pivoting toward the view that a tool is a tool. A hammer is just a heavy piece of metal on the end of a stick. It will sit there and do nothing if left unused, it will make dents in things when held by an untrained hand, and it might break a toe if you drop it. But in the right hands, you can craft helms and plate armor out of flat pieces of steel. What you get out is what you put in.

But, there is something to be said about why this discussion appears to be on the rise as more and more flashy plugs come out in VST land. Simply put, if you have been using Reason a long time like most of us have, you know that it more or less looks the same as it once did. We have a much cleaner sequencer with actual clips instead of endless stretches of raw notes, we have a main mixer and newer devices, we even have 3rd party devices that we can sign up to begin creating ourselves. Reason is a great tool, and you can get amazing results if you put in the time. But it is easy to look at Reason in its static state that has remained cosmetically identical throughout the years and then look over the fence at the modern approach of "user experience first" and get dismayed. Especially when the preset out-of-the-box sound you get is so much more satisfying than having to build it piece at a time after countless hours of self-taught experimentation.

Either way, this comes down to hours and hours of ear training and slowly developed skills. We will always have something else to learn and something new to try. One direction you get to improve your skills within a clearly defined system of limitations that -- when compared to the hits of yesterday -- rival the creative tools at the disposal of the greats who inspired us. The other is very flashy and very modern, but runs the risk of sounding like everybody else. If it sounds great already, why study hard and craft an original sound?

Personally, I still think this comes down to Reason economics. It appeals to people on a budget who are at the lower end of the income bracket. If money was not an issue or if music was the most important thing regardless of cost, then people would happily have their feet on both sides of the stream; owning Reason and other DAW packages too. There would be no issue there. The goal is to get good enough with what you have to then build your way up toward the ever greater tools and opportunities of your career in this field. Hate to say, but I have come to understand from my own despair in the past that if you feel like your tools limit you now, you'll never get there. It all relies on one's mindset.

My preference would be to use tools and techniques that excite and surprise me. I also greatly hunger for precise and scientific analytical tools that tell me exact information, like dB and percentages, correlation and phase alignment, partials of harmonics, and compressor response in real time graphs. That is why I feel that Ableton Live is more my style. I need more precise information and a larger community to connect with. Above everything else though, I need something new. I'll still have Reason, but I need to evolve and take the next step.

I don't think Reason needs VST, I think Reason needs a better set of educational resources on how to get the most out of it.
This is all just my perspective, I can't speak for anyone else.

[xylyx]

The only way I could see VST working for me would require the Props to have some sort of tie up with the providers of the VSTs themselves, so that they could perhaps create a special RE-wrapper for each VST specifically and then hold the licence information etc on their servers, so that I could quickly reinstall all REs and VSTs from one source.

This is one of the main factors about Reason that I like - I can buy a new computer and reinstall Reason and it's REs with very little effort and be able to open old projects straight away...try doing the same with old (or even new) projects with most other hosts and see how long it takes.

I just don't wanna make it a flame war but if you don't like it don't use it. I'm suggesting in a good way not to offend you or anything. However, lets say you have a Rack which is capable of holding VST and AU and that Rack is like Bitwig studio sandboxed and it doesn't crash the host and you can do your scanning via that Rack. What is the negative side of that? if you are not a fun of VST and AU don't use that Rack. Hey I really love to put my UAD horse power to support Reason.

There will be no flame war from me, as you clearly didn't read my post properly and therefore your response doesn't actually address anything I said...

[Oquasec]

Rewire.
Advanced midi module that's stuck to reason.
Loopmidi.
EMI.

Also comparing stock sounds to custom setups & thirdparty is not a good idea either.
Image line even stepped in to make a vsthost specifcally for propellerhead called minihost.

[Benedict]

Last I knew Imageline Minihost was dead??

[chk071]

Last I knew Imageline Minihost was dead??

It is. Hasn't seen an update since 2014, i think. Shame, looked pretty promising. Unfortunately, Image-Line have quite a few things discontinued now.

[Oquasec]

It still works, and I doubt they have stopped supporting it since so many use it.
Then there's also plogue bidule, vsthost & savihost on top of those other options there are already enough methods to get that vst fix it's not necessary to build a native vst bridge. Protools and ignite have the same caveat as reason when it comes to vst support.

[RandomSkratch]

I don't think Reason needs VST, I think Reason needs a better set of educational resources on how to get the most out of it.
This is all just my perspective, I can't speak for anyone else.

So true. I just came across a video from Selig showing how to use The Echo as a parallel processor bypassing the delay portion and only focusing on the extra features. It's not as simple as hooking up the cables normally and turning off the delay section... I would never have figured this out on my own!

It's things like this that I wish were more apparent. Maybe making the devices more modular if possible? Before Pulsar came out I would need to load a Subtractor up for using its LFO and I always thought it would be much easier or efficient to just have a device that did LFO for CV. For the above Echo trick, just having that color section on its own would be neat.

But seeing how Reason is now, you could fill volumes with tips or educational resources and still have more to learn!