Carve is in the Shop

[EnochLight]

And Ochen wanted you to send him a .Reason file without any other REs so he could open it on his computer and test it. Don't be so smug and act like he can't do that himself...

Perhaps he can make a video of him uploading or posting the songfile instead.   :s0238: :s0225:

[Shokstar]

And Ochen wanted you to send him a .Reason file without any other REs so he could open it on his computer and test it. Don't be so smug and act like he can't do that himself...

Perhaps he can make a video of him uploading or posting the songfile instead.   :s0238: :s0225:

hehe I think that´s enough now. 

[ochenk]

Shok, thanks for taking the time to explain what you're seeing.

I don't know if you have access to the SDK, so you may not know that RE development and testing happens in different environment than Reason. So even if I have a third-party RE in Reason, I can't use it in this other development environment. If a song file has a third-party RE, I usually can't even open it in the development environment (so I don't have the option to replace it) and even if I can open it, I only get the cardboard spacer, and replacing the cardboard with a stock device doesn't usually work very well. So yes, I know how to replace devices. And no, that's not an option in this case. That's why no third-party REs is so important when looking at issues. 

I don't think you've sent a file, but your latest video should have enough for me to try to replicate the issue. (I'm not in the studio now, so can't confirm.) As you demonstrate, even at the most extreme settings, any signal being introduced is at about -100db, and as you point out, sound isn't generally audible until about -48db. You're right that with enough gain staging, those additional frequencies might be audible, but in a real-world application, I'm not sure why one would do any significant gain staging on what would otherwise be empty frequencies.

But yes, I'll absolutely look into this, regardless of whether it has any practical effect in real-world applications. 

[eusti]

Thank you for explaining the issue of testing without 3rd party REs, Ochen!

D.

[tiker01]

Hi Ochen,

I saw a similar VST the other day which was mentioned as a secret weapon so I hope this issue will be fixed so I can grab a Carve myself  :s0221:
However, I think the through should be 100% transparent. Maybe a temporary solution could be using a spider.

As a fix what if you duplicate the reference internally and sending one straight through and using the other for referencing? (Sorry if this is how it works inherently.)

I checked your new tutorial and it seems like the change of the reference signal by trimming with the sensitivity is not reflected on the display which is a bit misleading.

More importantly now we can achieve precise cuts I think they are really hard to see on the display almost a horizontal white line. Therefore, I would love to see a larger display and you could add a grid with a dB scale so one would now what is going on.
A cherry on the top of the icing would be an off button to be able to turn the display off and save CPU/GPU after the device has been tuned to the desired settings. 

BTW congrats to the SOS review  :s0826:

[jappe]

okay here we go again  :s0225: :s0238: :s0225: :s0717:

Hi,
I can verify that I also get that noise.
In addition to that, I can easily also get heavy amplitude modulation on the Sine Sig in signal when carve LP freq is from 172Hz and above. 
But I guess that heavy amplitude mod on the sig in is related to overdriving the carve filter?
Amount 47%, 0dB ref in Thor, run by matrix

[img]webkit-fake-url://c7bc4d3b-a4d8-4068-a353-af6571b371b2/image.tiff[/img]

[Shokstar]

Shok, thanks for taking the time to explain what you're seeing.

I don't know if you have access to the SDK, so you may not know that RE development and testing happens in different environment than Reason. So even if I have a third-party RE in Reason, I can't use it in this other development environment. If a song file has a third-party RE, I usually can't even open it in the development environment (so I don't have the option to replace it) and even if I can open it, I only get the cardboard spacer, and replacing the cardboard with a stock device doesn't usually work very well. So yes, I know how to replace devices. And no, that's not an option in this case. That's why no third-party REs is so important when looking at issues. 

I don't think you've sent a file, but your latest video should have enough for me to try to replicate the issue. (I'm not in the studio now, so can't confirm.) As you demonstrate, even at the most extreme settings, any signal being introduced is at about -100db, and as you point out, sound isn't generally audible until about -48db. You're right that with enough gain staging, those additional frequencies might be audible, but in a real-world application, I'm not sure why one would do any significant gain staging on what would otherwise be empty frequencies.

But yes, I'll absolutely look into this, regardless of whether it has any practical effect in real-world applications. 

yes I have access to the SDK but I can´t talk about it in public, you know the NDA etc. I was thinking about to do a RE but I need to learn more about coding first
it makes sense to reproduce it in the SDK environment.

thanks for taking the time to explain this and I hope you had a bit fun to watch the videos. IT was not personal meant, I´m a funny guy and I´d like to joke sometimes  

Invite me please, if you need my help on a future RE project for beta testing

Cheers 
Shokstar

[kefkekeyser]

Is it possible to add a window or something on the gui that shows me how much carve is cutting

Short version:
Not really, because that's not how Carve works.

Long version:
Carve doesn't define how much db to cut. The incoming signal decides that. And Carve is a 48-band eq, meaning that there are 48 different levels of db cut all going on at the same time.

To illustrate this, imagine that you have an incoming REF signal that's a single frequency at unity (0db). On a 48db to -48db scale, that's 48db worth of amplitude. If you set Carve to cut 10% of the REF audio from the SIG audio, you're cutting 4.8db. If your REF audio drops to -24db, with those same settings, you're cutting 2.4db. Carve stays the same. It's the incoming REF audio that changes. So is that a 4.8db cut or a 2.4db cut?

Similarly, if instead of a single frequency, imagine you had two frequencies playing at the same time, triggering different bands of the 48-band EQ, one at unity, one at -24b. Cutting 10% of that signal, one frequency band is cut by 4.8db and the other band is cut by 2.4db at the very same time. So what db is Carve cutting? 4.8? 2.4? The average? The sum?

So there is no number of db that could ever be described as being cut. Only a ratio of the incoming reference audio. 

I was thinking more about something that could show me the max db cut that carve did during the last 5 seconds, more or less like the big meter can do for peaks. Does that make sense? I think that this could be useful.

[Concep]

Your video cracked me up, Shokstar.  While I could see the added frequencies on your FFT, I could not actually hear them.  I'm not saying that this thing doesn't exist, but I cannot imagine this creating an actual problem with a mix.  Is this making a mountain out of a molehill?

[lowpryo]

Is it possible to add a window or something on the gui that shows me how much carve is cutting

Short version:
Not really, because that's not how Carve works.

Long version:
Carve doesn't define how much db to cut. The incoming signal decides that. And Carve is a 48-band eq, meaning that there are 48 different levels of db cut all going on at the same time.

To illustrate this, imagine that you have an incoming REF signal that's a single frequency at unity (0db). On a 48db to -48db scale, that's 48db worth of amplitude. If you set Carve to cut 10% of the REF audio from the SIG audio, you're cutting 4.8db. If your REF audio drops to -24db, with those same settings, you're cutting 2.4db. Carve stays the same. It's the incoming REF audio that changes. So is that a 4.8db cut or a 2.4db cut?

Similarly, if instead of a single frequency, imagine you had two frequencies playing at the same time, triggering different bands of the 48-band EQ, one at unity, one at -24b. Cutting 10% of that signal, one frequency band is cut by 4.8db and the other band is cut by 2.4db at the very same time. So what db is Carve cutting? 4.8? 2.4? The average? The sum?

So there is no number of db that could ever be described as being cut. Only a ratio of the incoming reference audio. 

I was thinking more about something that could show me the max db cut that carve did during the last 5 seconds, more or less like the big meter can do for peaks. Does that make sense? I think that this could be useful.

 
I don't think that would be useful. let's say out of all the bands, your maximum cut is 8dB, and so your proposed meter says "8dB". that number actually doesn't tell you anything about what's going on, because we don't know if the cuts were applied to a very narrow set of bands or across the whole spectrum. what if it was an 8dB cut in one band, and and a 7dB cut in the other 47 bands? or what if it was an 8dB cut in one band, and 0dB cut in the other bands? two drastically different cases, but that "meter" number would give the same result. which means it's basically useless.
i think because it's a frequency-dependent operation, there's never a case where one number measurement can "summarize" what's happening.

[Shokstar]

Your video cracked me up, Shokstar.  While I could see the added frequencies on your FFT, I could not actually hear them.  I'm not saying that this thing doesn't exist, but I cannot imagine this creating an actual problem with a mix.  Is this making a mountain out of a molehill?

maybe I should make a new video right? mountains vs. molehiill

[Concep]

Your video cracked me up, Shokstar.  While I could see the added frequencies on your FFT, I could not actually hear them.  I'm not saying that this thing doesn't exist, but I cannot imagine this creating an actual problem with a mix.  Is this making a mountain out of a molehill?

maybe I should make a new video right? mountains vs. molehiill

I would definitely watch that one too  :s0230:

[ochenk]

However, I think the through should be 100% transparent. Maybe a temporary solution could be using a spider.

The Reference through is transparent. It's doing exactly what a spider does. Shok is talking about added frequencies to the Signal audio (i.e. the audio that's actually being EQed), not the Reference audio. 

I checked your new tutorial and it seems like the change of the reference signal by trimming with the sensitivity is not reflected on the display which is a bit misleading.

SENS doesn't change the graph, AMT does. If the white graph is too narrow, turn SENS down and AMT up. 

A cherry on the top of the icing would be an off button to be able to turn the display off and save CPU/GPU after the device has been tuned to the desired settings. 

The display is surprisingly efficient. Right now, there's code to disable the display when it's not showing on the screen, so every time you scroll Carve off the screen, the display stops. See if you get any performance boost when it does so. I don't.

[Kategra]

Maybe a bit too late for a feature request, but how about a user set Limit on the reduction. Like a knob setting the max anywhere attenuation from 3dB to 48dB+ or no limit? Or, if this feature is too hard to implement, then just a DRY/WET control should get kinda the same results.

[Last Alternative]

Maybe a bit too late for a feature request, but how about a user set Limit on the reduction. Like a knob setting the max anywhere attenuation from 3dB to 48dB+ or no limit? Or, if this feature is too hard to implement, then just a DRY/WET control should get kinda the same results.

I see what you're saying but I think the amount knob should be in dB, not %.

[tiker01]

However, I think the through should be 100% transparent. Maybe a temporary solution could be using a spider.

The Reference through is transparent. It's doing exactly what a spider does. Shok is talking about added frequencies to the Signal audio (i.e. the audio that's actually being EQed), not the Reference audio. 

I checked your new tutorial and it seems like the change of the reference signal by trimming with the sensitivity is not reflected on the display which is a bit misleading.

SENS doesn't change the graph, AMT does. If the white graph is too narrow, turn SENS down and AMT up. 

A cherry on the top of the icing would be an off button to be able to turn the display off and save CPU/GPU after the device has been tuned to the desired settings. 

The display is surprisingly efficient. Right now, there's code to disable the display when it's not showing on the screen, so every time you scroll Carve off the screen, the display stops. See if you get any performance boost when it does so. I don't.

Cool^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Makes my decision about buying much easier.

What do you say about a bigger display, perhaps after any potentially present issues have been ironed out?

[C//AZM]

My 2cents; could the amount knob have a range of 0 to 300% instead of 0 to 100% to coincide with the actual amount being cut? 100% should mean one to one, right?
Has this been addressed?

EDIT--- Ahh nevermind, seems this is true only when the sens knob is all the way up.

also--would it be beneficial to think of the sens knob as an input knob?

[kefkekeyser]

My 2cents; could the amount knob have a range of 0 to 300% instead of 0 to 100% to coincide with the actual amount being cut? 100% should mean one to one, right?

I also find it confusing that 100% amount is actually 300% of the signal after it was scaled by sense.

also--would it be beneficial to think of the sens knob as an input knob?

What about 'scale' or 'input gain' (although sense is fine for me)?

[lowpryo]

man I love having a line of contact directly to the developers on here, but I feel like maybe we're taking advantage of it now! a lot of these suggestions at this point are just semantics. this is no longer a beta, it's actually on the market! do you really think he's going to release an update to rename "sense" to "input"?
 
(if he actually does then he is a much better man than me haha)

[C//AZM]

If you actually read what I wrote,then you would know that I wasn't asking him to rename the knob, I was trying to wrap my head around the function of the knob.
It's a trim function.

[deankay]

Shok, thanks for taking the time to explain what you're seeing.

I don't know if you have access to the SDK, so you may not know that RE development and testing happens in different environment than Reason. So even if I have a third-party RE in Reason, I can't use it in this other development environment. If a song file has a third-party RE, I usually can't even open it in the development environment (so I don't have the option to replace it) and even if I can open it, I only get the cardboard spacer, and replacing the cardboard with a stock device doesn't usually work very well. So yes, I know how to replace devices. And no, that's not an option in this case. That's why no third-party REs is so important when looking at issues. 

I don't think you've sent a file, but your latest video should have enough for me to try to replicate the issue. (I'm not in the studio now, so can't confirm.) As you demonstrate, even at the most extreme settings, any signal being introduced is at about -100db, and as you point out, sound isn't generally audible until about -48db. You're right that with enough gain staging, those additional frequencies might be audible, but in a real-world application, I'm not sure why one would do any significant gain staging on what would otherwise be empty frequencies.

But yes, I'll absolutely look into this, regardless of whether it has any practical effect in real-world applications. 

Hi There, I'd just like to confirm that I'm reproducing the same issue as Shokstar.
The problem for me is that I'm processing the sound so much and the interference from carve is causing my signal to clip.

I can show an example if you need.

[Shokstar]

Shok, thanks for taking the time to explain what you're seeing.

I don't know if you have access to the SDK, so you may not know that RE development and testing happens in different environment than Reason. So even if I have a third-party RE in Reason, I can't use it in this other development environment. If a song file has a third-party RE, I usually can't even open it in the development environment (so I don't have the option to replace it) and even if I can open it, I only get the cardboard spacer, and replacing the cardboard with a stock device doesn't usually work very well. So yes, I know how to replace devices. And no, that's not an option in this case. That's why no third-party REs is so important when looking at issues. 

I don't think you've sent a file, but your latest video should have enough for me to try to replicate the issue. (I'm not in the studio now, so can't confirm.) As you demonstrate, even at the most extreme settings, any signal being introduced is at about -100db, and as you point out, sound isn't generally audible until about -48db. You're right that with enough gain staging, those additional frequencies might be audible, but in a real-world application, I'm not sure why one would do any significant gain staging on what would otherwise be empty frequencies.

But yes, I'll absolutely look into this, regardless of whether it has any practical effect in real-world applications. 

Hi There, I'd just like to confirm that I'm reproducing the same issue as Shokstar.
The problem for me is that I'm processing the sound so much and the interference from carve is causing my signal to clip.

I can show an example if you need.

maybe I become a free license for bug hunting
yeah, please share an example with us, or send it directly to Ochen K. you can find his email address on a previous page. 

[8cros]

I lost part of the signal due to the DC offset

I'm a little bad for translating English. Can you tell us about the problem. Or let the developer. Thank you.
DC on saw

[8cros]

please help, I would as soon as possible to use this effect.
I have such a problem?

[JNeffLind]

I don't see what your problem is and I can't download the file to my work computer. Maybe if you're more specific I can help. One thing I do see from the image is that you have your amount knob turned all the way to the right. This means you are cutting three times the amount of dB as the reference signal is providing. For some reason the developer set this up so that if you want an equal 1:1 cut on your signal you need to set the amount knob at 33%. I usually set it at around 15-20% depending on the use. Hopefully this helps.