4MER WaveShaper Synth is in the Shop!

[Loque]

Pjeudy, i am with you.

Critism is ok, if it is positiv and constructive. I would prefere feedback like "i see osc is aliasing that makes me sad and i wish OchenK can fix this" rather than bashing like "this and that is sh***, i sh** on innovation, i want to hate someone... ".

Be respectfull to the innovative work someone produced, and offered the results with a fair price. All the things the ppl here said and asked for (including me) can make a RE twice or tripple the price. I know this. I would pay.

So, be more constructive (not you in special case) and help OchenK to make this synth great.

[bsp]

If I may add: It's always a good idea to try out a synth/effect yourself instead of relying on screenshots or what other people said on an internet forum.

As far as this synth is concerned, I think it sounds good and I really like the oscillator waveshaping concept. The results remind me a bit of "table oscillator" but this one is a lot easier to use.
It does need some EQ, probably more than other synths, but that's hardly an issue in my book.

Regarding aliasing: Yes, it does alias but as OchenK explained, there's nothing much that can be done about that due to the underlying concept. It's still worth mentioning, though.

The important thing is that this synth does something that other synths do not, it's not a problem that it does not do everything.

There are some quirks/bugs but nothing too serious and I am sure the author will fix these minor issues rather sooner than later.


Anyways, I spent some more time evaluating this synth and made another patch -- a very gloomy one
It uses all 4 oscs, both filters, all modmatrix entries, plus EQ, a touch of chorus, and the DR-1 reverb. I've attached the patch (and the ones from the previous page), in case anyone wants them.


(this thread needs more audio examples!)

[bsp]

I was testing out some pad sounds this morning and created a nice patch, actually several versions of that.
After switching to an older version (for comparison), I noticed that the patch sounded quite different all of a sudden.
Quite a bummer since that forced me to recreate the patch almost from scratch.

The good news is that it is easy to reproduce, although it took me a while to figure out:

Create an instance of the synth, route LFO1 to a waveshaper parameter, set modulation amount to +100, then turn off the modulation target (or select a different one).

The previous modulation will still be active, not even a "Reset Device" will turn it off, even though loading another patch does.

Category "major", please fix ASAP!

[Loque]

I noticed similar things. The rendering buffer and internal values are not all reset. I noticed this on patch change, patch duplication and also on playing, the sound evolves and changes uncalculatable. The sound is different and sometimes just not present. Looks like missing reset and initializing of internal stuff. Hope this will be fixed soon.

Wondering how this could be missed by the beta testers...

[Bonkhead]

Wondering how this could be missed by the beta testers...

Because maybe you can not test everything in limited time, but do it part by part, not knowing if it is already submitted or when it will be approved for the shop, while you are doing other things in life. Trust me when I say the testers did work hard, together with Ochen.

[Neko the Jaguar]

I don't really get into all the technical aspects of REs, but this thing is fun. Pretty simple to program and tons of options. I really enjoy the visual aspect to it, which is why I enjoy playing with Vecto as well.

[tt_lab]

4mer looks pretty cool. I'm gonna try it right away

[XysteR]

How the absolute F**K is this rated to 3.7 in the shop? I read through this entirely - A fair few comments were about as constructive as a demolition party. You know what, I'm gonna stick my neck out here to say something just smacks of snide - I really hope I'm a million miles wrong to feel this way though.

It's a real shame that people didn't get to know the synth entirely before posting. I feel bad for ochenk that this thread is now probably detrimental to 4mer sales, no matter how small the numbers. Clearly the amount of work that's gone into this (from just one man) is mind bending!

ochenk, sterling work man - it's highly appreciated from me and clearly many other happy customers. Thanks for providing us with a fresh new instrument to work with in Reason. I will be buying this for sure!

[PinkSlime]

The synth is very versatile and most importantly sounds great. In case of undesired peaks or aliasing you can always eq a little. I also noticed a few bugs (attributes staying when loading patches, right channel muting after loading patches) but these are things that can be fixed. Either way, they are not compromising the capabilities this synth has

[eXode]

How the absolute F**K is this rated to 3.7 in the shop? I read through this entirely - A fair few comments were about as constructive as a demolition party. You know what, I'm gonna stick my neck out here to say something just smacks of snide - I really hope I'm a million miles wrong to feel this way though.

It's a real shame that people didn't get to know the synth entirely before posting. I feel bad for ochenk that this thread is now probably detrimental to 4mer sales, no matter how small the numbers. Clearly the amount of work that's gone into this (from just one man) is mind bending!

I think 3.7 is a compliment considering it's current status.

Posts like your's come off as pretty ignorant, and condescending towards other users. 4MER may be unique as a RE, but it sure isn't unique if you look at what's available on the VST market. Ever heard of Z3TA+? or Zebra for that matter? Both have a couple of years on their neck and still they don't alias as much as 4MER does (while offering similar functionality), in fact some of the sidebands that I hear in 4MER suggest that something is wrong with it.

4MER aliases more in 4X oversampling than Z3TA+ does with 2X oversampling (I have Z3TA+ 2 here so I've compared them).

The fact that Ochen K runs a one man show/sparetime whatever is pretty uninteresting for me as a customer, especially as there are several other developers that do the same (Blamsoft comes to mind. Synapse Audio, and Rob Papen are just two people, afaik) and they seem to be able to deliver high quality products anyway.

I had high hopes for 4MER, and I think the UI is spot on, Ochen did a great job with it, but the sound and performance of 4MER left me disappointed.

[XysteR]

How the absolute F**K is this rated to 3.7 in the shop? I read through this entirely - A fair few comments were about as constructive as a demolition party. You know what, I'm gonna stick my neck out here to say something just smacks of snide - I really hope I'm a million miles wrong to feel this way though.

It's a real shame that people didn't get to know the synth entirely before posting. I feel bad for ochenk that this thread is now probably detrimental to 4mer sales, no matter how small the numbers. Clearly the amount of work that's gone into this (from just one man) is mind bending!

I think 3.7 is a compliment considering it's current status.

Posts like your's come off as pretty ignorant, and condescending towards other users. 4MER may be unique as a RE, but it sure isn't unique if you look at what's available on the VST market. Ever heard of Z3TA+? or Zebra for that matter? Both have a couple of years on their neck and still they don't alias as much as 4MER does (while offering similar functionality), in fact some of the sidebands that I hear in 4MER suggest that something is wrong with it.

4MER aliases more in 4X oversampling than Z3TA+ does with 2X oversampling (I have Z3TA+ 2 here so I've compared them).

The fact that Ochen K runs a one man show/sparetime whatever is pretty uninteresting for me as a customer, especially as there are several other developers that do the same (Blamsoft comes to mind. Synapse Audio, and Rob Papen are just two people, afaik) and they seem to be able to deliver high quality products anyway.

I had high hopes for 4MER, and I think the UI is spot on, Ochen did a great job with it, but the sound and performance of 4MER left me disappointed.

Condescending? Not at all. Mildly defensive maybe - I feel miffed! I see it to be unfair he's not had a 'fair crack of the whip'. I read through everything here and it left a pretty bitter taste. So much so I felt the need to vent, nothing wrong with that - It would have been ignorant of me not to point this out, and let it go by the by. I just don't think it's very fair on Ochen that people are jumping down his neck on V1 of 4MER. When other devs have brought out Re's with problems and hardly even a peep in comparison to this. Yes I've heard of Z3TA+ and Zebra - Buggy as hell on release. I don't care about, and am highly ignorant of what's available in the VST market. The vast majority are buggy as and a complete ballache compared to this synth within Reason. I've been there, seen it and done it. That's why I wrapped all that nightmare up, and now use Reason. Guess how many times I've had Reason crash since I began using it umpteen years ago? none! The only VST's I bothered to keep were Massive and Reaktor. Both of which I can use in Reason within a few clicks, but I don't even bother with them now. Why? because I have pretty much all the synths I need in Reason so why bother? I think more enthusiasm for what he's accomplished here would be more productive and helpful to Ochen.

Ochen has already cleared up and given explaination to most peoples problems.

Quote "I had high hopes for 4MER, and I think the UI is spot on, Ochen did a great job with it, but the sound and performance of 4MER left me disappointed"
Quote "in fact some of the sidebands that I hear in 4MER suggest that something is wrong with it"
Maybe send a more detailed description to Ochen of this? Just a constructive suggestion..

This reads like you're discounting this already in V1? Would it not have been more constructive and wise on Ochen's behalf to wait, before having readers of this thread believe what is effectively an early 'micro review' of a synth by a sound designer? This is ignorant and exactly what I meant when I said the guy has not had had a fair crack of the whip! Give the man a chance to get a few updates out.

I'm far from disappointed with it. I think the only thing I didn't think a great deal of was the effects. I'm not saying they were bad. They were actually pretty good - But I am quite critical of effects in synths. If they are not up to scratch they will pull the whole synth down. Of course it's nicer for you as a sound designer to work with synths that have effects included. So maybe 'sound wise' this is what you mean? Strange though - The sound performance and quality is actually brilliant for me, and not too far away from other Re Synths. I am using a relatively modern computer if that is gonna make a great difference. Of course this is not going to be light on the DSP. But it's a powerful synth. In a nutshell, people just have to keep with the times with their hardware as best they can.

At the minute I'm happy with it. I feel 4mer will really shine after an update or two.

[Bonkhead]

How the absolute F**K is this rated to 3.7 in the shop?

By pressing them starz
That's a 7.4 on the 1-10 scale, pretty good if you ask me with all this complaints over here.
Also it's quite a new type of synth in the rack, people still need to adjust a bit imho.

[XysteR]

How the absolute F**K is this rated to 3.7 in the shop?

By pressing them starz
That's a 7.4 on the 1-10 scale, pretty good if you ask me with all this complaints over here.
Also it's quite a new type of synth in the rack, people still need to adjust a bit imho.

It's all bent as a nine bob note... lol

[eXode]

Quote "I had high hopes for 4MER, and I think the UI is spot on, Ochen did a great job with it, but the sound and performance of 4MER left me disappointed"

This reads like you're discounting this already in V1? Would it not have been more constructive and wise on Ochen's behalf to wait, before having readers of this thread believe what is effectively an early 'micro review' of a synth by a sound designer? This is ignorant and exactly what I meant when I said the guy has not had had a fair crack of the whip! Give the man a chance to get a few updates out.

I'm far from disappointed with it. I think the only thing I didn't think a great deal of was the effects. I'm not saying they were bad. They were actually pretty good - But I am quite critical of effects in synths. If they are not up to scratch they will pull the whole synth down. Of course it's nicer for you as a sound designer to work with synths that have effects included. So maybe 'sound wise' this is what you mean? Strange though - The sound performance and quality is actually brilliant for me, and not too far away from other Re Synths. I am using a relatively modern computer if that is gonna make a great difference. Of course this is not going to be light on the DSP. But it's a powerful synth. In a nutshell, people just have to keep with the times with their hardware as best they can.

At the minute I'm happy with it. I feel 4mer will really shine after an update or two.

We have different standards. You think that a V1 release of this quality is acceptable. I do not.
Regardless of plugin platform, I try it, and judge it based on what it is now, not what it might (or might not) become in the future. For all I know my trial might have experied once all the kinks have been ironed out.

[pjeudy]

I can't count how many times I've said the hell with music.... when I'm frustrated that after days, weeks of working on a track..... I still can't get it where it needs to be. We all understand hard work !!!!!!

But I wonder how much emotion people are putting into this because OchenK is one if us in the same Reason Bubble.
What if a developer today releases a new device that is just as buggy as 4MER, I wonder how many people would say..."hold on to your Analysis of Version 1.0 untill version 1.01 comes out?"
How many positive comments versus criticism do you have to give.in order not feel like you are hurting the developer? OchenK will survive, 4mer will survive.
And also think about this......at any given time there are no more then 50 people on Reasontalk.com....these 50 or less people, we form a small core of Reason users, what about the other 90% plus Reason users who don't know OchenK and his hard work through out the years...will they be as understanding as to why there are these issues with a device, or would they simply think to them self, this or that developer product is buggy I will not buy his stuff.

The silver lining here is that we in this small group of core Reason users are a billion times more understanding then what an outsider will be. And if OchenK can take the feedback and grow with it any future project will benefit from it.

[EnochLight]

To be fair, it's neither mine nor anyone else's duty here to "be nice" to devs, especially when it is regarding the quality and potential purchase of their product. We're all adults here, and this forum is an open field for discussing anything we see fit within the guidelines of the forum rules.

No one here is being disrespectful towards Ochen K, nor any other forum members as far as I can tell. If we disagree on our thoughts regarding things, that's absolutely fine. You can be sure I've disagreed with plenty of people, and plenty disagree with me!

But expecting us to hold our tongue for fear of driving sales away from a person's product release? Not gonna' happen. You're going to get honest feedback here, and no one should be expected to sugar coat things IMHO.

[selig]

I've tried to stay out of this, especially as my past criticism of Ochen's products were met with a response that suggested I had some sort of agenda against him (which of course I don't). But I'd like to make a few comments just to keep things positive and moving forward here.

For one, Exode is far more than just a "sound designer", and I consider him one of the "synth experts" around here. As far as my credentials go and why my opinion of Exode should matter, I actively (part time) write reviews for Recording Magazine and have done so for years now, so I feel I've learned something about the professional review process. And I'll just say this - Exode has high standards and writes extremely fair and technically in depth reviews, and writes from years of experience as well. I don't find fault with anything he has written, and often learn something from his reviews.

Secondly, once a product is released to the public it's fair to review it. You don't have to wait for a few revisions before writing about it, because it's the current version that is for sale! Anyone who is considering a purchase will want to know what they're getting TODAY, not what they might get tomorrow (though that type of comment is also welcome).

I appreciate folks like Exode taking the time to write an in depth and straight forward reviews and letting the chips fall where they may. I should also comment that IMO it's VERY important for developers to hear the positive AND the negative reactions to their products. I can say that as a developer myself, it's the negative comments I take most to heart - I'm typically already aware of the positives, so it's the negatives that become crucial to my understanding of the market to which I'm trying to appeal!

All this to say; nothing to see here, move along!

[Bonkhead]

It's all bent as a nine bob note... lol

What's "extremely gay" about it ?

[joeyluck]

And it's up to the customer to try the product for themselves and see if it works for them.

For instance, I see people ranting and raving about a filter that I think sounds awful and doesn't emulate well at all what it says it is based on. Yet people are 'instabuying' before even trying. Doesn't mean I need to buy it. I can use my own ears to make a decision.

I think constructive reviews are important. I only wish user reviews could be required and tied to star ratings. That would be most helpful to devs ad users IMO. Maybe with the comment feature of Discover, it is possible?

[pjeudy]

@joey why can't we make a sub forum about it ? User reviews only...... the only issue might be that people might want to have long conversations instead.

[eusti]

@joey why can't we make a sub forum about it ? User reviews only...... the only issue might be that people might want to have long conversations instead.

That is a good idea, pjeudy! Not sure how to set it up that it's less of a discussion though...

D.

[pjeudy]

@joey why can't we make a sub forum about it ? User reviews only...... the only issue might be that people might want to have long conversations instead.

That is a good idea, pjeudy! Not sure how to set it up that it's less of a discussion though...

D.

I hear ya...the only way would be strick moderation, to ensure that reviews don't turn into reply to post and respons back etc...

Or a 1 post/review per user to ensure that an original poster isn't responding back and forth. ...but allow that 1 post/review to be edited at will.

[joeyluck]

A sub forum for review might work. Although I feel a separate site more geared towards this type of thing would be best. Not sure how best it would be organized here. One thread per Rack Extension (created when the first review is created)? And each user writes their review in that thread? That way, each thread could have a polled score.
We could say no quoting, but general responses/references make sense (just the same as with reviews in other stores, you might mention part of someone's review in rebuttal).

If you want, go ahead and create a thread for this in the ReasonTalk Suggestions forum and everyone can discuss it there

[Shokstar]

I was trying out this RE and must saying it's a cool tool for dirty baselines. I really like the warp feature for adding more life into my sound. It was has really surprised me what I can get out of this synth.

[XysteR]

I just bought 4MER last night and 5* rated it. I love it - its a great original synth and a welcome addition to Reason! My only single gripe is that a fair number of the included patches feel a little 'dulled' by the on board effects. (Probably why some of the combi patches sound better to me). For some patches I generally leave the effects off in the synth, and pipe it through Antidote effects or one of my other delays/reverbs. For me, this is where you really hear the synths quality.

Again though, awesome work Ochenk.