Reveal Sound Spire RE confirmed in the works!!!!

[PadShifta]

Copied from Instagram*****
raelic@revealsound , will there be a patch converter to import patches from the vst, or any plan to create one?
revealsound@raelic we will do our best
*****

Would this not indicate that the Re version could have the same feature set as the VST? Maybe it has a complete layout overhaul. Or maybe a new SDK, or they split it into 2 or more separate full size UI's? Who knows, it's all speculation..

Saying that, It'd be pretty sickening if devs like Revealsound have to rip out Spire features to accommodate the current SDK. This alone would be off putting for any other big name devs to develop for us. If this is the case, then COME ON PROPS - GET YOUR FINGER OUT.

We're clearly all tired of seeing the words 'Current SDK limitations'

BRAVO, bravissimo XysteR!! I always bite my tongue but actually want to say exactly this too.

[XysteR]

Copied from Instagram*****
raelic@revealsound , will there be a patch converter to import patches from the vst, or any plan to create one?
revealsound@raelic we will do our best
*****

Would this not indicate that the Re version could have the same feature set as the VST? Maybe it has a complete layout overhaul. Or maybe a new SDK, or they split it into 2 or more separate full size UI's? Who knows, it's all speculation..

Saying that, It'd be pretty sickening if devs like Revealsound have to rip out Spire features to accommodate the current SDK. This alone would be off putting for any other big name devs to develop for us. If this is the case, then COME ON PROPS - GET YOUR FINGER OUT.

We're clearly all tired of seeing the words 'Current SDK limitations'

BRAVO, bravissimo XysteR!! I always bite my tongue but actually want to say exactly this too.

If nobody speaks out, we'll not be heard.



I mean what are the real reasons here? We've heard the same thing for years now 'this/that is not possible due to SDK limitations'. Is it a 'financial' thing - By opening up the SDK to allow loading of wavetables / samples, would this be detrimental to the revenue from Re's?

Is it a resource thing, where they're just currently 'working' at it. But really, after this long?

It makes me feel like Revealsound and props should be communicating about this. To at least allow Revealsound to provide us with a fully featured Spire. (eXode is probably cringing here, i'm sure him and Blamsoft would have loved to add a load/save wavetable feature to eXpanse) Hell, I mean Rob Papen is such a good and fair guy, he'd probably bring Predator features up to the level of the VST. If props would just make the moves needed to take away these restrictions. They're clearly putting developers off and ultimately holding Reason back for potentially more developers and ultimately more Reason users.

Who would benefit from this? Us, we'd get full featured VST ports with the creative advantages that come with a device in Reason. Developers, as they'd surely come onboard. Ultimately props would too, it'd open up Reason as an even more attractive DAW. I mean imagine Serum, fully featured within the Reason environment. It would creatively be 'better' than the VST version. I'm pretty certain Props would have tidal wavs of new Reason users if this were the case - But it's never going to happen if these 'restrictions' remain. More Reason users = more devs will follow and vice versa. The situation would snowball for the better.

But again, who knows. Spire may come fully featured yet - I really do hope so.

[EnochLight]

In the teaser picture of the RE, as I mentioned above, all the ENVs are grouped together and all the LFOs are grouped together:

ENVs 1-4 are in one section
LFOs 1-4 are in one section

Unlike the AU/VST that has ENV 1-2 and LFO 1-2 grouped together and ENV 3-4 and LFO 3-4 grouped together.
Get what I'm saying? Thus, you can easily switch between ENVs in one section and LFOs in another using the current SDK.

Ahhhhh - yeah, I get what you're saying now. My bad! Assuming custom displays could be made to blend in (as both the ENV and the LFO have displays which change dynamically on each page), then that might work.

There are also no buttons in those sections for STP1 or STP2. There is no button for MTRX.
And the ARP button is located at the top.

^^ And this is more of what I find troubling (well, that and the completely missing dual-stepper and arp, which are a fundamental part of Spire)...

As far as any mod matrix, just look at most any Reason or RE synth as an example. It can be more compact and thus fit in the remaining rack space or on the back easily.

It absolutely could not fit on the existing design IMHO (as it's estimated to be 8 & 1/2 U already)... and it couldn't go on the back and work like it should (as, again - we would have already seen a completely functional mod matrix on the rear of a synth RE's a dozen times over by now)...

For reference, I would submit to you Blamsoft's Expanse, among others. I'm certain if they could have fit a fully functional mod matrix on the back panel, they would have happily utilized the freed up front real estate for other features...

Copied from Instagram*****
raelic@revealsound , will there be a patch converter to import patches from the vst, or any plan to create one?
revealsound@raelic we will do our best
*****

Would this not indicate that the Re version could have the same feature set as the VST? Maybe it has a complete layout overhaul. Or maybe a new SDK, or they split it into 2 or more separate full size UI's? Who knows, it's all speculation..

Saying that, It'd be pretty sickening if devs like Revealsound have to rip out Spire features to accommodate the current SDK. This alone would be off putting for any other big name devs to develop for us. If this is the case, then COME ON PROPS - GET YOUR FINGER OUT.

We're clearly all tired of seeing the words 'Current SDK limitations'

BRAVO, bravissimo XysteR!! I always bite my tongue but actually want to say exactly this too.

If nobody speaks out, we'll not be heard.



I mean what are the real reasons here? We've heard the same thing for years now 'this/that is not possible due to SDK limitations'. Is it a 'financial' thing - By opening up the SDK to allow loading of wavetables / samples, would this be detrimental to the revenue from Re's?

Is it a resource thing, where they're just currently 'working' at it. But really, after this long?

It makes me feel like Revealsound and props should be communicating about this. To at least allow Revealsound to provide us with a fully featured Spire. (eXode is probably cringing here, i'm sure him and Blamsoft would have loved to add a load/save wavetable feature to eXpanse) Hell, I mean Rob Papen is such a good and fair guy, he'd probably bring Predator features up to the level of the VST. If props would just make the moves needed to take away these restrictions. They're clearly putting developers off and ultimately holding Reason back for potentially more developers and ultimately more Reason users.

Who would benefit from this? Us, we'd get full featured VST ports with the creative advantages that come with a device in Reason. Developers, as they'd surely come onboard. Ultimately props would too, it'd open up Reason as an even more attractive DAW. I mean imagine Serum, fully featured within the Reason environment. It would creatively be 'better' than the VST version. I'm pretty certain Props would have tidal wavs of new Reason users if this were the case - But it's never going to happen if these 'restrictions' remain. More Reason users = more devs will follow and vice versa. The situation would snowball for the better.

But again, who knows. Spire may come fully featured yet - I really do hope so.

I don't think you'll get any complaints from us that the RE SDK is sorely in need of an update. All of the missing features and things that prohibit 1:1 ports of these highly coveted plugins have been nothing but a pain in the ass for everyone involved, users/customers especially!

[joeyluck]

As far as any mod matrix, just look at most any Reason or RE synth as an example. It can be more compact and thus fit in the remaining rack space or on the back easily.

It absolutely could not fit on the existing design IMHO (as it's estimated to be 8 & 1/2 U already)... and it couldn't go on the back and work like it should (as, again - we would have already seen a completely functional mod matrix on the rear of a synth RE's a dozen times over by now)...

For reference, I would submit to you Blamsoft's Expanse, among others. I'm certain if they could have fit a fully functional mod matrix on the back panel, they would have happily utilized the freed up front real estate for other features...

Well currently what you see is about 7.5U
This is 9U:

9U.jpg (331.75 KiB) Viewed 3076 times

I'm not aware of limitations of not having a mod matrix on the back. I know Revival has it's control routing on the back.
In any case, it's anyone's guess on most of this. I'm merely pointing out what is possible given the current layout of the pre-alpha teaser image. There's some room down there for something like effects and as far as I know, you can have a mod matrix on the back.

[groggy1]

Really looking forward to this! I have the VST version, and I've always liked the sound of Spire (like many folks on this thread). I've always loved the on-board reverb.

Anyway, I saw someone mention that they thought the knobs were too big. In my opinion, they seem reasonable size, but maybe I'm not seeing it right.
In-fact, I've always hated how small the controls are on synths like predator. To each his own.

[EnochLight]

What do you think the ARP button at the top does?
I'm curious if and where it appears for editing...

The arp button at the top likely does absolutely nothing in its current form, as there's no arp - nor any room to place one.

Well currently what you see is about 7.5U

Granted, that still doesn't leave but so much space...
But you could fit a mod matrix in there, in the style of Thor:
And of course, this doesn't answer the 5 pages of mod matrix available on the AU/VST (not sure how many presets use that many assignments...)

I've owned Spire for quite some time, and honestly - I have no idea how many current presets use the 5 pages of mod matrix slots available. But the fact remains - if porting removes the possibility, it'll be one more thing for people to batch about and VST-land to laugh about.

I'm not aware of limitations of not having a mod matrix on the back. I know Revival has it's control routing on the back.

Control routing is not a mod matrix. Again, if there was no limitation of placing a fully functional mod matrix on the rear panel of an RE, it's insane to think that no dev has implemented it yet. I mean, the additional screen real estate that it would free up on the front would be incredibly useful.

Question: how often have you seen buttons, sliders, or anything else on the rear of an RE (or native Reason device) automated?

In any case, it's anyone's guess on most of this. I'm merely pointing out what is possible given the current layout of the pre-alpha teaser image. There's some room down there for something and as far as I know, you can have a mod matrix on the back.

I have to admit, your optimism is inspiring (even if misplaced). I truly hope you're right - as a 1:1 port of Spire would be game changing for Reason. I hate having to fire up Studio One just to use it. Anything to keep me in Reason 100% is a step in the right direction, IMHO! When v9 introduced the new audio pitch editor, I have literally went back to Melodyne Essentials exactly ZERO (except to compare results for my own self satisfaction). Spire RE would be one more reason to keep me in Reason.

Now, about Sonic Charge Permut8, MicroTonic, and Synplant...

[mind2069]

It's personnal, but I prefer the white version of reason. I think it looks really really good.

I really dont care bout the missing features, The most important thing is to get the sound quality of the synth and effects and hopefully a mod matrix.

Of course a 1:1 port would be nice, but I dont care. We have plenty of Arps and CV devices to hook it up to.

Nothing wrong with wanting more but it would be nice if people appreciated the fact that the devs who are coming on board are doing the best and making most of the sdk and we have so much stuff to enjoy comparing with the pre RE days.

Im pretty satisfied with the synths options we now have, from Zero, Parsec, Expanse, The legend and much more. And soon ReSpire, I dont compare any of them with VST's, I just see them as a new synth within Reason.

[Iggster]

I've been reading this board with interest and over comments left on instagram and for what it's worth, my take on things is slightly different...

Firstly I don't own Spire but know how good it is from friends who use it but from a purely business perspective, I don't think Reveal would want to release a half baked version of what is arguably one of the best synths out there! I know from running my own business myself the last thing I would want to do is tarnish my reputation by releasing something below par.

Reading the instagram comments and particularly the one regarding Reveal 'doing their best' to release a patch converter, that gives me confidence that what they are planning to release is not far off the VST version similar to Predator. I think there is a lot going on behind the scenes here and i'd love to be a fly on the wall! I wouldn't be surprised if Reveal have been in talks with Propellerhead and have been offered a sweetener to get them on board. This could be an agreement to work on the latest SDK together to tailor make it compatible with Spire (and therefore other VST synths) with interchangeable panels, etc. I can't remember when the last SDK was released (perhaps someone can confirm?) but it seems long overdue and again as a business, i'm sure they want to move things forward. I also note that there are very few comments on this thread from other developers and it could be that they are now aware that a new SDK is on it's way, and they are not getting involved in discussions due to NDAs.

This is purely conjecture at this point but all we are seeing is pre-Alpha version (and only 3/4s of it from the screenshots - I wonder why that is?!). In it's current form it's probably a crude version with no effects, etc. just to get the sound engine right but i'd guess that the final version will be resized with the mod matrix albeit in a typical PH format to save space and include all effects along with the arp (why would they want to mislead people with an arp button!).

You can probably tell i'm a glass half full type of guy but time will tell...!

[EnochLight]

I've been reading this board with interest and over comments left on instagram and for what it's worth, my take on things is slightly different...

Firstly I don't own Spire but know how good it is from friends who use it but from a purely business perspective, I don't think Reveal would want to release a half baked version of what is arguably one of the best synths out there! I know from running my own business myself the last thing I would want to do is tarnish my reputation by releasing something below par.

Reading the instagram comments and particularly the one regarding Reveal 'doing their best' to release a patch converter, that gives me confidence that what they are planning to release is not far off the VST version similar to Predator. I think there is a lot going on behind the scenes here and i'd love to be a fly on the wall! I wouldn't be surprised if Reveal have been in talks with Propellerhead and have been offered a sweetener to get them on board. This could be an agreement to work on the latest SDK together to tailor make it compatible with Spire (and therefore other VST synths) with interchangeable panels, etc. I can't remember when the last SDK was released (perhaps someone can confirm?) but it seems long overdue and again as a business, i'm sure they want to move things forward. I also note that there are very few comments on this thread from other developers and it could be that they are now aware that a new SDK is on it's way, and they are not getting involved in discussions due to NDAs.

This is purely conjecture at this point but all we are seeing is pre-Alpha version (and only 3/4s of it from the screenshots - I wonder why that is?!). In it's current form it's probably a crude version with no effects, etc. just to get the sound engine right but i'd guess that the final version will be resized with the mod matrix albeit in a typical PH format to save space and include all effects along with the arp (why would they want to mislead people with an arp button!).

You can probably tell i'm a glass half full type of guy but time will tell...!

That's a great point. As an early alpha, just to get the audio engine/DSP working and tested, they could have a fully functional DSP engine generating all patches 1:1 - just without a GUI/UX interface to access all of the features (hence the missing arp, stepper, effects, mod section, etc). Perhaps they are just at a point where they need to create the proper GUI/UX to access all of the features.... I know, pure unsubstantiated conjecture!

As you said, time will tell...

[tiker01]

I've been reading this board with interest and over comments left on instagram and for what it's worth, my take on things is slightly different...

Firstly I don't own Spire but know how good it is from friends who use it but from a purely business perspective, I don't think Reveal would want to release a half baked version of what is arguably one of the best synths out there! I know from running my own business myself the last thing I would want to do is tarnish my reputation by releasing something below par.

Reading the instagram comments and particularly the one regarding Reveal 'doing their best' to release a patch converter, that gives me confidence that what they are planning to release is not far off the VST version similar to Predator. I think there is a lot going on behind the scenes here and i'd love to be a fly on the wall! I wouldn't be surprised if Reveal have been in talks with Propellerhead and have been offered a sweetener to get them on board. This could be an agreement to work on the latest SDK together to tailor make it compatible with Spire (and therefore other VST synths) with interchangeable panels, etc. I can't remember when the last SDK was released (perhaps someone can confirm?) but it seems long overdue and again as a business, i'm sure they want to move things forward. I also note that there are very few comments on this thread from other developers and it could be that they are now aware that a new SDK is on it's way, and they are not getting involved in discussions due to NDAs.

This is purely conjecture at this point but all we are seeing is pre-Alpha version (and only 3/4s of it from the screenshots - I wonder why that is?!). In it's current form it's probably a crude version with no effects, etc. just to get the sound engine right but i'd guess that the final version will be resized with the mod matrix albeit in a typical PH format to save space and include all effects along with the arp (why would they want to mislead people with an arp button!).

You can probably tell i'm a glass half full type of guy but time will tell...!

That's a great point. As an early alpha, just to get the audio engine/DSP working and tested, they could have a fully functional DSP engine generating all patches 1:1 - just without a GUI/UX interface to access all of the features (hence the missing arp, stepper, effects, mod section, etc). Perhaps they are just at a point where they need to create the proper GUI/UX to access all of the features.... I know, pure unsubstantiated conjecture!

As you said, time will tell...

They said pre alpha so I think their intention was to show that they are working on it. I would not expect it to be released until Q1 or Q2 2017!

[fieldframe]

Some thoughts on the UI scale:



Here's what it would look like if the entire VST UI (SDK-specific tab layouts notwithstanding) were dropped into the rack. It's actually pretty good - Text could be blown up slightly (maybe go all caps), but most of the controls are comparable to those on its neighbors.



Here it is with the macro bar from the left removed. At this point, the knobs are relatively big, but not huge. They're all about the size of the master volume knob on Thor, and it still lets Reveal fit the Stages section in on the right.



Lastly, the scale they're currently at. Everything is gigantic! The smallest knob on Spire is bigger than the biggest knob on Thor. Even if Reveal can somehow fit all the controls in at this scale, Spire just looks odd and out-of-place in the rack.

[EnochLight]

Some thoughts on the UI scale:



Here's what it would look like if the entire VST UI (SDK-specific tab layouts notwithstanding) were dropped into the rack. It's actually pretty good - Text could be blown up slightly (maybe go all caps), but most of the controls are comparable to those on its neighbors.



Here it is with the macro bar from the left removed. At this point, the knobs are relatively big, but not huge. They're all about the size of the master volume knob on Thor, and it still lets Reveal fit the Stages section in on the right.



Lastly, the scale they're currently at. Everything is gigantic! The smallest knob on Spire is bigger than the biggest knob on Thor. Even if Reveal can somehow fit all the controls in at this scale, Spire just looks odd and out-of-place in the rack.

Nice, great illustrations! At the moment, this confirms a nagging issue: the lack of changeable panels that need to exist for the lower panel mod matrix, ENV, LFO, Stepper, and Arp to exist 1:1. Unless there is a definite SDK update, Reveal Sound will have to make some changes UX/GUI-wise (majorly) or forego some features entirely. IMHO...

[TheMiles]

What is it with those "changeable Panels" ? I don't understand why they are not possible ATM. I mean, the big top/center screen on eXpanse is a changeable Panel isn't it ?

[Iggster]

Enochlight, after watching your video again especially regarding the interchangeable panels for the mod matrix, I actually think that the way the original Spire approached the matrix is actually quite a waste of real estate and the way PH and other developers approach it is a much more efficient use of space. We've seen on other Reason synths that arps, effects, etc can be added in very little space so I think by the time everything is rationalised and moves to Beta, we'll be surprised at what features are included! Now that they have updated and optimised their other versions I just think Reveal have now had time to sit down now to think 'outside the box' on how they can approach things in the Reason world!

[selig]

What is it with those "changeable Panels" ? I don't understand why they are not possible ATM. I mean, the big top/center screen on eXpanse is a changeable Panel isn't it ?

It's a custom display which means no tool tips no modifiers and no 3D graphics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tiker01]

What is it with those "changeable Panels" ? I don't understand why they are not possible ATM. I mean, the big top/center screen on eXpanse is a changeable Panel isn't it ?

It is a custom display. A changeable panel is those you find in Thor!

[TheMiles]

Okay thanks for clarifying both of you. Pardon my ignorance!

[joeyluck]

Some thoughts on the UI scale:

One thing to keep in mind when scaling the AU/VST as an example to fit in the Reason rack, is to keep the height in mind as well.
A device cannot be shorter nor taller than a unit of 1U. Certainly doesn't mean controls can't be made smaller, just something to keep in mind.

[EnochLight]

What is it with those "changeable Panels" ? I don't understand why they are not possible ATM. I mean, the big top/center screen on eXpanse is a changeable Panel isn't it ?

It's a custom display which means no tool tips no modifiers and no 3D graphics.

Yeah, I think most people forget this or aren't aware. Custom displays can do a lot of utility for RE's, but the lack of no tool tips, modifiers, and 3D-ish graphics kills it.

Enochlight, after watching your video again especially regarding the interchangeable panels for the mod matrix, I actually think that the way the original Spire approached the matrix is actually quite a waste of real estate and the way PH and other developers approach it is a much more efficient use of space.

Oh I totally agree - in the context of Reason. In the context of Spire (VST/AU/AAX) there's an almost limitless amount of space, so it was made large just to fill up the area when the panels were switched. It would look silly on the (VST/AU/AAX) if it were made as small as we normally get in Reason/RE's.

[TritoneAddiction]

Just curious, what's all the hype about Spire? I don't really know anything about it. Does it do anything new or unique we can't do already?
What synthesis type is it? Only looking at it quickly it seems to be based on subtractive synthesis.

[EnochLight]

Just curious, what's all the hype about Spire? I don't really know anything about it. Does it do anything new or unique we can't do already?
What synthesis type is it? Only looking at it quickly it seems to be based on subtractive synthesis.

Yeah, it's basically a fancy analog synth, but it's been listed in the top 10 must-have plugins since release, has industry-wide critical acclaim, has a massive professionally produced sample library at its disposal with constant updates (for sale, mind you), is a blast to program (and this is coming from a guy who hates programming LOL), and is just an all around awesome synth.

That said, since Blamsoft has released Expanse for Reason, it has tempered my excitement a bit. But Expanse doesn't have thousands of pro-designed patches at its disposal (as Spire has been out for years), nor does it come with industry-wide critical acclaim (and likely never will, as it's for a very small population of users -not that critical acclaim matters, though)! And it doesn't quite have as many features as Spire (the dual-Stepper + Arp, being one thing that comes to mind).

That said, YMMV... Spire is an acquired taste for many, and some may not like it at all.

[Marc64]

Just a thought ...
Wonder if the props will change the rack layout that adds possibilities to create synths/effects that stretches over 2 rack spaces...
Much like they said they never would add audio tracks but they did eventually...

[TritoneAddiction]

Just curious, what's all the hype about Spire? I don't really know anything about it. Does it do anything new or unique we can't do already?
What synthesis type is it? Only looking at it quickly it seems to be based on subtractive synthesis.

Yeah, it's basically a fancy analog synth, but it's been listed in the top 10 must-have plugins since release, has industry-wide critical acclaim, has a massive professionally produced sample library at its disposal with constant updates (for sale, mind you), is a blast to program (and this is coming from a guy who hates programming LOL), and is just an all around awesome synth.

That said, since Blamsoft has released Expanse for Reason, it has tempered my excitement a bit. But Expanse doesn't have thousands of pro-designed patches at its disposal (as Spire has been out for years), nor does it come with industry-wide critical acclaim (and likely never will, as it's for a very small population of users -not that critical acclaim matters, though)! And it doesn't quite have as many features as Spire (the dual-Stepper + Arp, being one thing that comes to mind).

That said, YMMV... Spire is an acquired taste for many, and some may not like it at all.

Thanks for the reply.
I don't care too much about arp or stepper features. I don't usually utilize those kind of things anyway when I write music.
But a big nice patch library is certainly a good thing since I'm not much of a patch maker myself. I mostly tweak presets to taste.

I'll probably check it out when it's released as a RE but I image I can get pretty far with both Expanse and The Legend in my rack right now.
That should cover both analog and more modern versatile sounds pretty good.

[fieldframe]

Just a thought ...
Wonder if the props will change the rack layout that adds possibilities to create synths/effects that stretches over 2 rack spaces...
Much like they said they never would add audio tracks but they did eventually...

Speaking as a UI designer, I'm pretty sure this will never happen because it would break too many things in the UI. It also makes no sense in terms of the rack metaphor.

Much more likely would be the ability for REs to pop up a floating window with more controls on it, similar to the spectrum analyzer. You could do a lot with these, such as offloading the modulation matrix or a complex arp programmer to it while leaving the regular synth controls in the rack.

[TheGuyNotNamedBob]

Maybe this is a horrible idea. But is it possible to have two devices, available in a bundle, then wire them up to allow more than 9u synths? 1 for envelopes, LFOs, etc, then another for Oscillators and FX. Is that possible?