Delay devices with (or without) dotted notes

[challism]

It's always baffled me why delay devices don't all have dotted note values (1/8* and 1/16* specifically) - especially the core products like Echo and DDL-1. And this trend has continued on with most of the delay REs in the shop. I can't figure out why that is. Turn2On has two delay devices (that I know of, could be more) that feature dotted 1/8 and dotted 1/16 value settings. It's not surprising that Turn2On offers this, as their devices are very, very thorough and seem to deeply explore every possibility. None of the other delay devices in my rack (and I own a good share of the REs in the shop) offer these settings. I find it odd. So in order to get these values, you have to switch from sync mode to MS mode and dial in the right number manually. I've posted a reference chart and calculator here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7527348&p=600171#p600171

The only two delay devices that I know of which offer dotted settings are Turn2On Ecruos and Turn2On Grainshift.
Am I missing any other REs that have this?
What are some reasons this popular delay value would be left off a delay device?

[deeplink]

Isn't 3/4 equal to 1/8 dotted?

dotted.PNG (10.42 KiB) Viewed 866 times

link: https://www.liveabout.com/music-theory- ... ts-4686771

[challism]

Isn't 3/4 equal to 1/8 dotted?

dotted.PNG

link: https://www.liveabout.com/music-theory- ... ts-4686771

I don't believe so, no. I think 3/4 delay would be 3x as long as 1/4 delay. Because a dot (in musical notation) adds half as much of the value to the note being dotted, I believe that you get dotted values by multiplying the note length by 1.5. So 1/8 dotted would be 1/8 + 1/16 (1.5 the value of 1/8).

Let's use 120BPM as an example.
1/4 delay of 120 BPM would be 500ms
3/4 delay would be 3x that amount... 1500ms.
1/8* would be 375ms.

[deeplink]

Isn't 3/4 equal to 1/8 dotted?

dotted.PNG

link: https://www.liveabout.com/music-theory- ... ts-4686771

I don't believe so, no. I think 3/4 delay would be 3x as long as 1/4 delay. Because a dot (in musical notation) adds half as much of the value to the note being dotted, I believe that you get dotted values by multiplying the note length by 1.5. So 1/8 dotted would be 1/8 + 1/16 (1.5 the value of 1/8).

Let's use 120BPM as an example.
1/4 delay of 120 BPM would be 500ms
3/4 delay would be 3x that amount... 1500ms.
1/8* would be 375ms.

I actually meant 3/16, not 3/4.. sorry.
The Echo has time division of 3/16 - so does DDL

Following on from your example @ 120BPM
1/16 = 125ms
3/16 = 375ms, same as 1/8*

The snip I posted above reffered to 3/4 of a beat, not a bar

[challism]

I don't believe so, no. I think 3/4 delay would be 3x as long as 1/4 delay. Because a dot (in musical notation) adds half as much of the value to the note being dotted, I believe that you get dotted values by multiplying the note length by 1.5. So 1/8 dotted would be 1/8 + 1/16 (1.5 the value of 1/8).

Let's use 120BPM as an example.
1/4 delay of 120 BPM would be 500ms
3/4 delay would be 3x that amount... 1500ms.
1/8* would be 375ms.

I actually meant 3/16, not 3/4.. sorry.
The Echo has time division of 3/16 - so does DDL

Following on from your example @ 120BPM
1/16 = 125ms
3/16 = 375ms, same as 1/8*

The snip I posted above reffered to 3/4 of a beat, not a bar

"I actually meant 3/16, not 3/4.. sorry"
I even made a video to respond... and you typed the WRONG value. ha ha ha

1/16 + 1/16 + 1/16 = 3/16. So it does!

Alright, so they didn't drop the ball on their delay devices. And 1/16* value would be equal to 3/32. 3/8 must be a dotted 1/4 note.

Interesting to just be figuring these out now (thanks to deeplink), after all these years using The Echo. I've seen all these uncommon fractions on the delay time dial, and have used them all at different times (no pun), but never realized they were equal to dotted values.

I wonder why they decided to go with the less common use of these fractions (3/8 and 3/16) instead of the more common practice of using dots (1/8* and 1/16*).

Still going to have to dial in the MS for devices such as Polar, which only has the option of setting delay to MS values.

[deeplink]

Still going to have to dial in the MS for devices such as Polar, which only has the option of setting delay to MS values.

Funny you mention polar, I actually created a combinator to get around recently - using an echo delay after the polar, and creating a feedback loop with the 14:2 mixer. Easily adjustable synced pitch feedback delays!

[JiggeryPokery]

I actually meant 3/16, not 3/4.. sorry.
The Echo has time division of 3/16 - so does DDL

Following on from your example @ 120BPM
1/16 = 125ms
3/16 = 375ms, same as 1/8*

The snip I posted above reffered to 3/4 of a beat, not a bar

"I actually meant 3/16, not 3/4.. sorry"
I even made a video to respond... and you typed the WRONG value. ha ha ha

1/16 + 1/16 + 1/16 = 3/16. So it does!

Alright, so they didn't drop the ball on their delay devices. And 1/16* value would be equal to 3/32. 5/16 must be a dotted 1/4 note and 7/16 must be a dotted 1/2 note. Interesting to just be figuring these out now, after all these years using The Echo. I've seen all these uncommon fractions on the delay time dial, and have used them all at different times (no pun), but never realized they were equal to dotted values.
I wonder why they decided to go with the less common use of these fractions (3/8 and 3/16) instead of the more common practice of using dots (1/8* and 1/16*).

Still going to have to dial in the MS for devices such as Polar, which only has the option of setting delay to MS values.

Yes, as you've now discovered, most devices probably do have dotted delays, but in Reason for whatever reason Propellerhead back in the day decided not to use dotted values to indicate them in the UI, so RE devs generally carried on that approach either out of constistency or .... . (I suspect dotted values like 1/16* are a little bit obtuse or even meaningless for a lot of users; it's also possible that dotted values maybe are more a European "classic" thing - it wouldn't surprise me if some places, e.g. US, tend to use non-dotted values? I mean, 3/16 tells you a lot more than 1/16* if you're unfamiliar with what * means. Not everyone is classically trained in sheet music, after all.)


FWIW both Steerpike and Titus offer a vast array of user-adjustable tempo-synced values, however rarely used 95% of them will be. It's not a basic list of presets, though, so again, perhaps it might not seem obvious dotted values are available. You have to know the nominator/denominator values and set them, e,g, 3/16 . It's one of those usability tradeoffs.

[challism]

OK... a simple math problem for all you mathletes. My brain is too broken to figure out what 5/16 and 7/16 are supposed to be dotted values of.

3/32 = 1/16*
3/16 = 1/8*
5/16 = ?
3/8 = 1/4*
7/16 = ?

[selig]

OK... a simple math problem for all you mathletes. My brain is too broken to figure out what 5/16 and 7/16 are supposed to be dotted values of.

3/32 = 1/16*
3/16 = 1/8*
5/16 = ?
3/8 = 1/4*
7/16 = ?

A dotted note means 1.5 x the written value, so 5 and 7 are not “dotted”. And I would add that displaying the dotted values as fractions makes sense in the context of ALSO having the 5 and 7 16ths values (which I actually find very useful for creating interesting rhythm variations). Consistency is a good thing in a UI IMO.

[challism]

OK... a simple math problem for all you mathletes. My brain is too broken to figure out what 5/16 and 7/16 are supposed to be dotted values of.

3/32 = 1/16*
3/16 = 1/8*
5/16 = ?
3/8 = 1/4*
7/16 = ?

A dotted note means 1.5 x the written value, so 5 and 7 are not “dotted”. And I would add that displaying the dotted values as fractions makes sense in the context of ALSO having the 5 and 7 16ths values (which I actually find very useful for creating interesting rhythm variations). Consistency is a good thing in a UI IMO.

Thanks for that. So 5/16 is just 5/16 and not a substitution for some dotted value. Glad to know it wasn't just my brain having a hard time figuring it out. I, too, find having the 5 & 7/16 values to be useful and interesting.

And thanks for your input about the GUI consistency. That does make sense to keep things consistent.

[JiggeryPokery]

5/16 is just 5/16 and not a substitution for some dotted value. Glad to know it wasn't just my brain having a hard time figuring it out. I, too, find having the 5 & 7/16 values to be useful and interesting.

Yes. And afaik (been a while since I checked) Steerpike and Titus are the only Reason delays that have tempo-synced option that can do 5/16, 7/16, or 9/32, or 3/2 or 5/3, 12/7, whatever you want. You're not limited to a limited preset list. Also, it's the only delay with an additional integrated offset mode, so you can apply a pre-delay to a delay, which can provide better results for ping-pong especially, as you can avoid triggering the initial "tap" on the 2/16 in a 2/16 -1/16 ping-pong, to get a more useful 3/16 initial delay before triggerring (it's hard to explain, I never really managed it at the time of release either, but it's one of those things that once you know you realise how useful it is).

[challism]

5/16 is just 5/16 and not a substitution for some dotted value. Glad to know it wasn't just my brain having a hard time figuring it out. I, too, find having the 5 & 7/16 values to be useful and interesting.

Yes. And afaik (been a while since I checked) Steerpike and Titus are the only Reason delays that have tempo-synced option that can do 5/16, 7/16, or 9/32, or 3/2 or 5/3, 12/7, whatever you want. You're not limited to a limited preset list. Also, it's the only delay with an additional integrated offset mode, so you can apply a pre-delay to a delay, which can provide better results for ping-pong especially, as you can avoid triggering the initial "tap" on the 2/16 in a 2/16 -1/16 ping-pong, to get a more useful 3/16 initial delay before triggerring (it's hard to explain, I never really managed it at the time of release either, but it's one of those things that once you know you realise how useful it is).

Steerpike is definitely the deepest delay RE in the shop. You did an extremely thorough job building it. That ping-ponging method looks intriguing, I'm goin to have to try that out now.