Can any Dev make a Sidechain RE

[Marc64]

modify curves in the sequencer automation like that volume shaper would be amazing even in synchronus


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[avasopht]

cant remember who but someone made a reason file with different automation curves that you could copy/paste to taste.


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This Is The Guy

http://www.propellerheads.se/stuff/JB34.zip

I think this is a huge reminder of how important a pragmatic approach to production is!

[tobypearce]

I just sent this email to Llectric Panda:

[Links weren't preserved when I pasted this into the forum, but you'll get the idea.]

----
Hi there,

Thanks for the wonderful Rack Extensions you have made so far. I have several of them and they are really useful.

What can I do to encourage you to make a volume shaper? Can I try?

Volume shapers sell very well in VST format.

They are made by a number of developers - there is good competition. For example: Cable Guys Kick Start Waves

Side chaining is an extremely popular technique - near ubiquitous - lots of potential customers.
Here’s a recent magazine review showing how popular the technique is.

Development for you would be quick and easy - build on your existing work - you are 90% there already.
A volume shaper is basically just a variant of Shape RE.
Your Shape RE already has powerful curve editing for CV. You just need to adapt this for audio.
It’s a simple concept:
Audio input —> volume shaped by envelope —> Audio out


Demand from Reason users

There is nothing like this in Reason at present. Users have to work around.
Here are three YouTube videos showing some relatively clunky work arounds in Reason
Reason 6 Tip: Best way to sidechain! (Method used by Camo & Krooked) 33,948 views
Make your synths pulse/pump on Reason! (Sidechain-Compression Techniques) 121,266
52 Reason / Record Tips - Week 43: The Side-Chain Compression Effect 47,236 views
These videos have receive many thousands of views.
Here’s a recent discussion thread specifically wanting a volume shaper in Reason http://www.reasontalk.com/viewtopic.php ... 38#p272238


Once again, many thanks for all you’ve done so far. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. Is it something you might consider?

Best wishes,

Toby

[Kenni]

Isn't the best way to sidechain just using a compressor, doing what sidechain really is?

[boobytrap]

something similar like FL gross beat. making gate patterns on volume. still can do automating volume. but nice to see a RE with some additional functions and built in patterns

[riemac]

Isn't the best way to sidechain just using a compressor, doing what sidechain really is?

It seems, that this sometimes is a philosophical question. I prefer the volumshaping method at least for a 1/4 beat.
- Lower CPU usage than a compressor
- Often more control over the shape of the sidechain
- Compressors sometimes introduce saturation, this often depends on how fast the attack and release setting is
- Easier to setup

I prefer sidechaining with a compressor on all other rythmical (non 1/4) situations, for example sidechain a pad with a piano etc.

[orthodox]

The hard part is the library of shapes. Synchronous has one.

As for volume shaping, it can be done with Thor modulation matrix scale factor or Pulverizer volume modulation input. These two are instant, unlike CV which has 64-sample time quantum, and no attack/release envelope is applied.

[8cros]

For me, the most impressive and unusual turned sidechain tube or saturation. It must be set so that the level of destruction did not change the amplification of Carrier, and have worked as a garden shears cutting off the leaves from the bushes crown. Harmonics are created only at the time of the mix and the RMS is in the same place. It's pretty dirty, but very suddenly. (This requires a fairly complex system of envelope followers)
I have Charlotte as well, and Synchronous.
But usually for envelope shaping need one Malström.

[selig]

The hard part is the library of shapes. Synchronous has one.

There ARE other ways to approach this application. I've never been attracted to the "library of shapes" approach unless those shapes can be easily And fully edited - in Reason speak: "patches".

I believe there is a market for a dedicated and simple device that's not as complex a multi-FX as Synchronous and not inside a Combinator for super low CPU (and To allow a cool UI). The idea IMO is how to make a device that is very versatile and yet so obvious and simple to use. I also wouldn't want something TOO simple that leaves you wanting more, and obviously I have a few ideas on how to implement such concepts - but I have something else that's in line ahead of this idea - and I'm listening…



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[Reasonistas]

The hard part is the library of shapes. Synchronous has one.

There ARE other ways to approach this application. I've never been attracted to the "library of shapes" approach unless those shapes can be easily And fully edited - in Reason speak: "patches".

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There is already a developer bringing a dedicated "sidechain" device to Reason with this approach very soon. Stay tuned for more details.

[selig]

The hard part is the library of shapes. Synchronous has one.

There ARE other ways to approach this application. I've never been attracted to the "library of shapes" approach unless those shapes can be easily And fully edited - in Reason speak: "patches".

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There is already a developer bringing a dedicated "sidechain" device to Reason with this approach very soon. Stay tuned for more details.

Well then I'll have to wait and see if they bring any of the innovations I'm planning, and if not I'll continue with my plans - though I'm not really expecting to see the approach I'm planning on taking… we'll see - the more the merrier, right?!?

[Reasonistas]

The hard part is the library of shapes. Synchronous has one.

There ARE other ways to approach this application. I've never been attracted to the "library of shapes" approach unless those shapes can be easily And fully edited - in Reason speak: "patches".

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There is already a developer bringing a dedicated "sidechain" device to Reason with this approach very soon. Stay tuned for more details.

Well then I'll have to wait and see if they bring any of the innovations I'm planning, and if not I'll continue with my plans - though I'm not really expecting to see the approach I'm planning on taking… we'll see - the more the merrier, right?!?

Thanks, Giles. Good to know.

[Spryx]

I'm partial to doing it through the compressor in the VSSL. I use a shelob device to split a BD or phantom trigger track. Also route insert pre and dyn post eq

[selig]

What would the simplest functional device look like (anyone?)?

[michal22]

What would the simplest functional device look like (anyone?)?

1. The large display for setting the curve.
2. Control via keyboard midi - sequencer - can copy notes in the sequencer to retriger.
3. In addition to the CV input retriger well if needed.
4. Volume knob of +/- with volume control plus and minus.
5. Any number of points of the curve, any of its length and in any shape line. Ability to set time synchronized mesh - 1/16, 1/32, etc.
6. Output CV's for control of additional effects.
7. Ability to work as a mixer, so as to control the volume of multiple tracks simultaneously with intensity control changes the volume separately for each track.
(In Section 7 I do not know if the unit is not complicated too hard).

[selig]

What would the simplest functional device look like (anyone?)?

1. The large display for setting the curve.
2. Control via keyboard midi - sequencer - can copy notes in the sequencer to retriger.
3. In addition to the CV input retriger well if needed.
4. Volume knob of +/- with volume control plus and minus.
5. Any number of points of the curve, any of its length and in any shape line. Ability to set time synchronized mesh - 1/16, 1/32, etc.
6. Output CV's for control of additional effects.
7. Ability to work as a mixer, so as to control the volume of multiple tracks simultaneously with intensity control changes the volume separately for each track.
(In Section 7 I do not know if the unit is not complicated too hard).

This sounds a lot like Synchronous minus the triggering.

Questions:
How often do you use unlimited points of the curve? Or rather, how many points do you REALLY need?
What do you mean by "work as a mixer"?

[michal22]

This sounds a lot like Synchronous minus the triggering.

Yes, it's true.

Questions:
How often do you use unlimited points of the curve? Or rather, how many points do you REALLY need?

When points of the curve is unlimited, then you can use tool like this for diffrent creative effects. I very like settings amp/filter curve in blamsoft zero. It super easy and very powerful.

What do you mean by "work as a mixer"?

I mean the ability to connect multiple devices to a single "sidechain tool" - the same curve sidechain, but different power of influence. I do not know, however, whether it's a good idea. It is possible that the device is too complicated then.
It is also important to "bypass" function, in order to be able to turn off the sidechain at any time, for example, when we quietened kick.

[michal22]

I think that is a lot of RE's to create curves, but you need to be connected to a mixer or other external devices for changing the volume. The store is missing plugins all-in-one.

[submonsterz]

I really don't think I need anything more than redrum and compressor on 99.99999% of side chaining between the compressor and the redrum you have all you need its all in the source used in the redrum and its settings .
every thing you touch changes the duck effect and you have patterns for different timings etc
on top of that you have all the compressor settings attack decay threshold and compression amount .
try different sources in your redrum like clicks for getting nice sharp ducking and use the tone and p[itch settings and length and gate modes .
I have vst sidechains and errmm I can get all I have there in reason all ready cant see the need for a device that will have as many knobs and dials as people seem to want to do things on it.
look again at what you have and you will see it is all there and really theres not much more to it than what is asked here for as one device......

[lowpryo]

What would the simplest functional device look like (anyone?)?

my dream:

the top half would be a multi-stage envelope generator similar to Zero's (the best curve-drawing tool in Reason IMO). there would be a switch for "LFO" or "oneshot" (that would be triggered with CV). also rate & sync knobs.

the bottom half would have two knobs:
-"gain amt" which would send the LFO to automate level (for pseudo-sidechain, tremelo, amp env etc)
-"filter amt", which send the LFO to a filter. ideally would have a variety of filter types built in. also I'd love a variety of filter shapes (kinda like the filter module on Serum VST if you've ever seen it - basically complex filter movement all assigned to one macro knob)

there are definitely many ways of doing this already (Synchronous, Lectric Panda's Shape, EtchRed, others), but IMO this would be the cleanest and fastest solution without any kind of combinator or CV routing.

[Vyckeil]

Since audio was introduced in Reason, what we really need is sequencer automation curves. It's so much easier to line up the curves and automation perfectly to the audio compared to a device in a rack. Devices are fine for synth-based stuff, but it's a pain to time it right and tight to an audio sample in the sequencer. Then you can either bounce to channel or copy-paste the setup in blocks for further tweaking in other parts of the song.

There are tons of really good CV and automation devices that do what we want already.

[tobypearce]

One other thing I'd add is that any volume shaper just has to be cpu efficient. I've tested today and shape actually takes quite a toll, and dissuades me from using it over the old fashioned redrum/compressor approach.
Perhaps this is a limitation on the sdk?

[selig]

Since audio was introduced in Reason, what we really need is sequencer automation curves. It's so much easier to line up the curves and automation perfectly to the audio compared to a device in a rack. Devices are fine for synth-based stuff, but it's a pain to time it right and tight to an audio sample in the sequencer. Then you can either bounce to channel or copy-paste the setup in blocks for further tweaking in other parts of the song.

There are tons of really good CV and automation devices that do what we want already.

But then you can't "play" the effect - there's no interaction, though I agree there are advantages to doing it this way. There also need to be track looping options (loop an individual track) for this approach to really work well IMO.

[selig]

One other thing I'd add is that any volume shaper just has to be cpu efficient. I've tested today and shape actually takes quite a toll, and dissuades me from using it over the old fashioned redrum/compressor approach.
Perhaps this is a limitation on the sdk?

That's interesting…and disappointing. Shouldn't really be a CPU hog as far as I reckon. BTW, poring over your ducking curves examples from the Line Mixer thread…

[Vyckeil]

Since audio was introduced in Reason, what we really need is sequencer automation curves. It's so much easier to line up the curves and automation perfectly to the audio compared to a device in a rack. Devices are fine for synth-based stuff, but it's a pain to time it right and tight to an audio sample in the sequencer. Then you can either bounce to channel or copy-paste the setup in blocks for further tweaking in other parts of the song.

There are tons of really good CV and automation devices that do what we want already.

But then you can't "play" the effect - there's no interaction, though I agree there are advantages to doing it this way. There also need to be track looping options (loop an individual track) for this approach to really work well IMO.

I completely agree with you, but sometimes it's just way better to simply add "that automation" at "that spot" right in the sequencer when composing. It's also much a much better workflow when mixing and editing too.

Nothing is stopping us from using automation devices right now. There are plenty of really good REs and stock devices that do the job. We're still missing proper sequencer automation, and the workarounds we have are not that great. At least have a bunch of standard curves (just like in Synchronous) for the sequencer, and maybe a device that can record CV automation straight in the sequencer without having to use Thor as a workaround. Heck, I want that device with the option of linking automation parameters of other devices so that it could record the automation directly on the lane of the parameter I want to modulate.