Question to RE Developers: Can you make a living from RE Development?

[altron]

The title basically says it all. Can you as a RE developer alone make a living from RE development, i.e. does it pay your bills? It would be cool to hear some average profit figures from RE developers.

I'm asking because I'm interested in RE development but I have to evaluate whether it's worth the time and efforts. I'm primarily a software engineer but not yet familiar with DSP programming. However I'm interested in it now and recently had some good ideas for several effect REs that don't exist as that on the RE store yet. I want to develop REs because I love that format so I don't really want to invest in developing VST plugins but I will no doubt have to go through a lot of VST/AU/etc. plugins code because RE development resources are very sparsely seeded, essentially consisting only of what comes with the RE SDK.

Also, on a related note: Shouldn't this forum have a RE dev section?! (because the off. RE dev forum at PH seems dead.) *hint* *hint*

[Benedict]

Hi

I haven't developed an RE but a few ReFills and before that 4 collections of VST. I can pretty confidently say that the answer to your question is statistically very likely to be No. I would even give the same answer if you asked the question about VST.

However if you have some great ideas coupled with the staying power to develop and support then there is at least some nice petrol money to be made. Also you will gain resume pieces and some experiences you will never get as a pure consumer.

Personal advice: if you come into it thinking you will be rich and famous overnight then you will be very upset and leave a trail of damage. If you do this because you have something you need to make then you will profit - even if only in unexpected ways.

[Gaja]

I agree with Benedict. If you're able to develop something you need in the rack (because it doesn't exist yet), do it. You won't get rich nor be able to pay all your bills with RE development, but maybe some. But if it is a great implementation of a great idea, you will at least be loved in the Reason community (like ochenK), which doesn't pay your bills, but is still very nice.

[Jagwah]

Great question.

Also, on a related note: Shouldn't this forum have a RE dev section?! (because the off. RE dev forum at PH seems dead.) *hint* *hint*

No sh*t?!

[Kenni]

Also, on a related note: Shouldn't this forum have a RE dev section?! (because the off. RE dev forum at PH seems dead.) *hint* *hint*

Sure If the developers or whoever is going to outline a usage plan can post something about it in the Suggestions section, we'll create it

[JiggeryPokery]

altron, the official RE Dev forum is the RE Dev forum, and is used daily by a number of devs, including PH themselves.

[hamu]

altron, the official RE Dev forum is the RE Dev forum, and is used daily by a number of devs, including PH themselves.

And it's NDA safe!

[EnochLight]

I simply disagree with Benedict that one cannot make a living just doing VST/AU/AAX plugins - there are dozens upon dozens of companies that have existed for this soul purpose before RE's arrived on the scene for Reason. But I do agree that it would be challenging - if not impossible - to do just RE's alone. Take our most prolific RE devs for example - Rob Papen and Softube. They're not planning abandoning their VST/AU/AAX products any time soon...

That said, everyone's standard of living may vary, so.. YMMV.

[Theo.M]

Hi

I haven't developed an RE but a few ReFills and before that 4 collections of VST. I can pretty confidently say that the answer to your question is statistically very likely to be No. I would even give the same answer if you asked the question about VST.

However if you have some great ideas coupled with the staying power to develop and support then there is at least some nice petrol money to be made. Also you will gain resume pieces and some experiences you will never get as a pure consumer.

Personal advice: if you come into it thinking you will be rich and famous overnight then you will be very upset and leave a trail of damage. If you do this because you have something you need to make then you will profit - even if only in unexpected ways.

and on the other hand some have made an absolute fortune off their plugins - i use nexus again as a prime example - over 5 million dollars in sales of just nexus itself as a base product without expansions! (let's not even go there, those two guys are living large for the rest of their days). And that's just one plugin and a very tiny company.

So it really depends on the product and how the marketplace responds to it. Pretty confidently "NO", may be overstating it, a lot - and i remember your vst collections were $7.50 and used synthedit which you well know many had a phobia too so that already harmed possible sales. There was a stigma with SE with i reckon half the kvr population, for example, who were your biggest user base, that even for free that 50% wouldn't touch SE plugins. Even if everyone loved your plugins, they were $7.50 man, and i believe AUD also? not even USD back then? So how many would you need to sell to make a proper living? To make a (very) average 40k yearly wage you would had to sell like over 500 a month, and with little advertising other than KVR (if any advertising?), that would be quite difficult.

As far as RE sales right now, i don't think they are that great and the risk is definitely higher than with other formats.
Does that have to do with them being non resellable and being tied only to one platform that has a comparatively tiny user base when compared to the other Daw's combined? Probably both of those things. What I am trying to say is, the chances of making it rich in any format may be low, [b but the chances of making a survivable living are 50/50 [/b]IMO, if you do aax/vst/au versions. The chances of making a living with RE only is probably very low at the moment, to directly answer the OP's question. But to compare VST to RE is not fair in this case Benedict and the same goes for refills, cause once again, very small market. I know the OP asked about RE but I quoted and replied to you due to your thoughts that making money as a dev has poor chances even for VST, when there are many devs out there, hundreds, making a comfortable living off of plugins, and I can say this with certainty. Your answer is bias from your own experience solely, it seems.

There is a simple test that could be done to know if GOOD money could actually be made off of an RE. If refx or lennard released nexus and/or sylenth. And if they then provided sales numbers (as in how many units sold). If those failed i would categorically say it is impossible to make money with RE. if those sold really well, then I would say it's because they are products that people want. Alot of people. Which would then prove, with the right product, an RE can make good money. Right now I am not sure and unless the RE devs themselves divulge unit sales we really won't ever know, for sure.

Regardless of all my waffle above, i believe if a product is something the market craves and is priced right (not $7.50 and not $349), that is your best chance. Chances are definitely better with other formats however due to sheer numbers.

[Theo.M]

I simply disagree with Benedict that one cannot make a living just doing VST/AU/AAX plugins - there are dozens upon dozens of companies that have existed for this soul purpose before RE's arrived on the scene for Reason. But I do agree that it would be challenging - if not impossible - to do just RE's alone. Take our most prolific RE devs for example - Rob Papen and Softube. They're not planning abandoning their VST/AU/AAX products any time soon...

That said, everyone's standard of living may vary, so.. YMMV.

Oh there you go, i was typing my marathon out as you were typing your perfectly said neater version - AGREED!

[Benedict]

Oh ye of limited reading skills

"statistically very likely" - No

And sure SSP I was $7.50AUD. I sold a bunch. SSP IV was $10 and I sold very few units for the extra few coins compared to the complexity of the units. SSP I still outsold IV even at the end. Ignoring the SE phobia crap, there was simply a very solid cap on what people would pay. I didn't set out to make a living but to make a difference (and see if it was scale-able).

Sure the next Bill Gates could get there off a DSP plugin but "statistically very likely"? No. Would it be wise to advise otherwise (esp if you read the OP)?

[Theo.M]

Oh ye of limited reading skills

"statistically very likely" - No

And sure SSP I was $7.50AUD. I sold a bunch. SSP IV was $10 and I sold very few units for the extra few coins compared to the complexity of the units. SSP I still outsold IV even at the end. Ignoring the SE phobia crap, there was simply a very solid cap on what people would pay. I didn't set out to make a living but to make a difference (and see if it was scale-able).

Sure the next Bill Gates could get there off a DSP plugin but "statistically very likely"? No. Would it be wise to advise otherwise (esp if you read the OP)?

No need to be rude regarding reading skills. That's a bad form of forum etiquette - just say, as others do "you misunderstood, here is what i meant". Maybe it's poor writing skills on your part, hey?

I already disproved your myth about price with nexus which is a $300 product and has sold 25,000+ copies. So what you mean to say above is, "there was simply a very solid cap on what people would pay for MY product". Once again this is all about your personal experience and your particular product, and you are applying the odds because of this, en masse, when it's simply not the overall case. I have given real examples, lennard is another one, i can give you many many names of people making great money off vst plugins.Camel audio had over half a million pounds in the bank and just sold and made a tidy sum to apple. How many employees? Not many, i tell you. Shall I go on? And statistically very likely, no, means you better back that up with some names and actual, er, statistics.

[Lizard]

There surely are a lot of variables to consider but falling in line with others I would generally say no. I am developing an IDT based Re and the take is slightly lower than that of a DSP Re. But in reality both still fall in the same paradigm. I set out to do it as a challenge and if it can supplement my computer music hobby then great. If you pump out a lot of product then your chances are much better clearly. If you are an established VST programmer already your chances are greatly improved. It's simply about price at units sold. I've talked with a few people that have expressed the number of units sold and they are not as high as you would think. Here is an equation (unfounded) to consider. If I sold a product at 30 USD/EUR and were lucky enough to sell 500 units then total profit is : 30 X 500 = $15,000 ..... and remember Propellerhead wants some of that as well as your local government.

[altron]

Thanks for the feedback anyone! Yes I didn't expect to get rich with REs but at least be able to cover my rent. The problem with investing time into great ideas is that there is no time if you're instead have to do a 9-to-6 full time job as a programmer (unless you have no life and spend the rest of the day and night coding at home ). I would have expected that popular REs at least sell in the thousands. That begs the question of how many Reason users are out there and how many of them are potential RE buyers. What does PH takes share? It looks like ~30% so if your'e selling an RE for an average price of $35 with 1000 sales you would earn ~($23.60 x 1000) = $23.600. Maybe that's too optimistic. But if I go after your opinions then most devs sell only very few REs in one month.

altron, the official RE Dev forum is the RE Dev forum, and is used daily by a number of devs, including PH themselves.

What is the URL of this 'utopian' forum you speak of? It cannot be this one here because there doesn't seem to go on much at all.

[altron]

@Lizard But $15,000 is not that bad if sold within at least four months, which means selling at least 125 per months.

[Lizard]

What is the URL of this 'utopian' forum you speak of? It cannot be this one here because there doesn't seem to go on much at all.

I believe the one JP speaks of is the one you are given access to after being approved as a developer. If you don't have access to the SDK you don't have access to the forum. Unfortunately it isn't open to public. On the brighter side registering to get access is free and easy to do.

[Jagwah]

Oh ye of limited reading skills

Don't do that stuff man. Things like that can really spark into something unnecessary. Thanks.

[ochenk]

Here are a few thoughts from my perspective (as a RE developer with a full-time day-job).

Yes, you can make a living from RE development, even as a side job, but in my experience, only in scale. Think of Amazon.com. They only make a few pennies on each product, and they don't sell enough of any one product to support the company. But they sell millions of products, so at that scale, they're making money.

This is, in part, because RE sales follow the "long tail" revenue model. When you release a RE, you get a spike of sales. But within a few months, sales will fall into a baseline. I've launched products that, in their first month of sales, generate enough to cover that month's bills. But none of my products come close to covering all my expenses once they hit their baseline. However, all of my REs have a baseline above zero sales per month, so all of them continue to make money. Some, more than others. I have 12 products in the shop right now, so I have a stack of 12 baselines that makes up my monthly income from REs. Depending on your obligations, this stack may or may not cover your bills.

So, in my experience, one RE is very unlikely to cover anyone's monthly expenses once it reaches its baseline in sales. But with a big enough stack, they could. How many REs you'll need in your stack depends on the quality and prices of your REs, and of course, your monthly need.

All of that being said, if you're looking to get into RE development to turn it into your day job, I'd suggest finding other options. It's taken me almost three years to build up to 12 products, and I'm doing RE development pretty much in all my free time. I do it because I love programming and Reason. If there was no money in it, I'd still do it. This is my hobby. I don't play video games. I don't watch TV. I don't play sports. I do my day job, come home, visit with the wife, then make REs until I go to bed. If there are other, easier ways for you to enjoy yourself, do those. You'll have a better life.

To address a few details that folks have posted above:

The revenue split is 70/30 (on non-IDT REs) after fees, not 70/30 of the sales price. Depending on your price point, the developer take is closer to 50-to-60%. My understanding is that it's worse for UK folks, but I don't know details on that. The IDT split for the developer is even lower.

Altron, you're looking at the wrong Developer forum. Go to the Developer home page. At the top, there are links to two forums. You pointed to one as dead. Go look at the other one.

[Theo.M]

Thanks for all that excellent info Ochen.

[altron]

Thanks for the insights Ochen! It's similar on the Mac app store in my experience. One app doesn't sell much (unless it's a big hit, promoted by Apple) but if you got enough apps running it might eventually cover the bases. Difference is the maintenance: an instrument is eventually finished at some point, after a few updates and from there on it's good, it never retires. For an app users want to see updates often (at least that's how it seems today).

I'm still wondering what the deal is with the IDK (Instrument development kit)? How does it differ from development with DSP code and therefore the cut is lower? (Sorry, haven't looked into those details yet!)

I got access to the SDK and now found the correct forum link, thanks for the hint @Lizard & Ochen!

[ochenk]

The IDT is essentially a RE template for ROMplers. It's a predefined extra bit of code that handles the majority of C++ programming to make the RE work. If you don't know much C++, or are mostly interested in making sample libraries/ROMplers, the IDT is a great way to go. There's a lower revenue cut presumably because Propellerhead incurred expenses developing IDT and continues to incur expenses for maintenance and updates. But if you want to make synths that actually generate/synthesize audio, or you want to create utilities or effects, the regular SDK is your path.

[JiggeryPokery]

What is the URL of this 'utopian' forum you speak of? It cannot be this one here because there doesn't seem to go on much at all.

Now I see your issue. That's the Dev forum, not RE Dev forum.

[EnochLight]

Oh ye of limited reading skills

Goddamn dude - that was harsh.

I can pretty confidently say that the answer to your question is statistically very likely to be No. I would even give the same answer if you asked the question about VST.

I think I can read pretty good, actually. Perhaps you meant something different, and just weren't able to articulate it accurately? I realize the king's isn't your first language, so correct me if I'm wrong...

[Benedict]

Well well if everyone didn't get just a bit bent out of shape there. Sorry that you again choose to misread my input to the OP and re-interpret it in your own minds as a launchpad for your own stuff.

I was quite bit put out that I was dismissed in what seemed a rather high-handed or arch manner based on mis-reading or selective inattention. I did provide my opinion based on my experience. That is the proof you choose to ignore/deride. And clearly I wasn't ever comparing my SSP to something like Omnisphere which is a completely different sort of market level. I assumed that any new Dev with no great background would start somewhere closer to my experience or that later presented (very nicely) by Ochen K.

I figured the first sentence in my reply was clearly partly humorous (high-handed and arch in a mock-Victorian manner) and a way to alert you that I was somewhat miffed.

No idea why you may think I can't speak English. Matter of fact I commonly use words or turns of phrase that clearly mark me as being of British origin. Also my website clearly states my origins.

Live and let live

[Theo.M]

Oh ye of limited reading skills

Goddamn dude - that was harsh.

I can pretty confidently say that the answer to your question is statistically very likely to be No. I would even give the same answer if you asked the question about VST.

I think I can read pretty good, actually. Perhaps you meant something different, and just weren't able to articulate it accurately? I realize the king's isn't your first language, so correct me if I'm wrong...

he's still doing it in his reply, like, "i'm not doing anything to deserve this" but throwing all these carefully placed digs at the same time. Do what I have learned to do. Respond once and never let it bother you again I assure you it is worth it, and the new foe button is very handy ps I agree with everything you said, and on re reading the post I think both our answers were spot on.