VSTs are weak compared to REs

[DNA Apocalypse]

I just wanted to clarify how lucky reason users are for having the sandboxed res that perform like superstars.....if you disagree I invite you to a debate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Vsts are for for poor pirate producers....res are for the producers that actually make money from their craft!!!! Correct me if I am Wrong! Sorry if I offended anyone! Just my opinion.................

[jam-s]

Obvious troll is obvious.

[K.Markov]

so, new synth?

[Michaellos]

so, new synth?

I've got the same feeling that DNA Apocalypse are cooking something

[Skullture]

Vsts are for for poor pirate producers.... money

money

You make an interesting comment, however. You seem to mix up two important points. One being the pirating aspect, and the other one being the quality of the product. These are two separate subjects imo. So I'm confused what the point is you're trying to make.

[submonsterz]

I just wanted to clarify how lucky reason users are for having the sandboxed res that perform like superstars.....if you disagree I invite you to a debate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Vsts are for for poor pirate producers....res are for the producers that actually make money from their craft!!!! Correct me if I am Wrong! Sorry if I offended anyone! Just my opinion.................

Reason is not the only daw to now be using sandboxing for pluggins. So thats that one out
and more top brand daws are looking more likely than ever to be introducing this too.
If piracy was even an issue no vst's would be made or released as it would not be worth a dev doing so in the first place.
Id say any vst worth its wieght sells just fine even with piracy and a lot more units being sold per unit compaired to re .
Vst have also become very stable in modern hosts compaired to the ancient times you seem to have based your view on.
I do dissagree very strongly infact in most of what you say.
Also the re sand boxing comes at a price in extra resources being used having a middle man as such.
And on only pros use reason as your comment suggests
Well reason seems to be populated mostly by hobbyists from what ive gathered over the years.
Also res have had there problems and deaw backs and bugs and instabillitys . Some still have them long after being found to perform not as should.
So in a nutshell yup i dissagree and thats my argument to it.
Enjoy.

[DNA Apocalypse]

I just wanted to clarify how lucky reason users are for having the sandboxed res that perform like superstars.....if you disagree I invite you to a debate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Vsts are for for poor pirate producers....res are for the producers that actually make money from their craft!!!! Correct me if I am Wrong! Sorry if I offended anyone! Just my opinion.................

Reason is not the only daw to now be using sandboxing for pluggins. So thats that one out
and more top brand daws are looking more likely than ever to be introducing this too.
If piracy was even an issue no vst's would be made or released as it would not be worth a dev doing so in the first place.
Id say any vst worth its wieght sells just fine even with piracy and a lot more units being sold per unit compaired to re .
Vst have also become very stable in modern hosts compaired to the ancient times you seem to have based your view on.
I do dissagree very strongly infact in most of what you say.
Also the re sand boxing comes at a price in extra resources being used having a middle man as such.
And on only pros use reason as your comment suggests
Well reason seems to be populated mostly by hobbyists from what ive gathered over the years.
Also res have had there problems and deaw backs and bugs and instabillitys . Some still have them long after being found to perform not as should.
So in a nutshell yup i dissagree and thats my argument to it.
Enjoy.

"Vst have also become very stable in modern hosts" LAUGHABLE....please be more specific so I can demolish your anemic and fragile, to say the least ,hollow assumptions. Well, is it Ozone? Nope sorry ....Waves? nope sorry not very dependable at all and to keep this short, those two I named have the highest budgets. By the way both have been cracked and pirated.

P.s. Bitwig is sandboxed albeit very poorly..... I have to say because multiple instances of Legit Nexus, and VIP software plugins have crashed as I have this daw also.

Anyway thanks for the easy win bro! j/k but you tried...

[DNA Apocalypse]

Vsts are for for poor pirate producers.... money

money

You make an interesting comment, however. You seem to mix up two important points. One being the pirating aspect, and the other one being the quality of the product. These are two separate subjects imo. So I'm confused what the point is you're trying to make.

The point is clear. Read the Subject title.

[DNA Apocalypse]

I am deeply sorry if I offended anyone! I do NOT want to be an internet troll to anyone but I do want to reserve the distinct right to express strong opinions without being labeled as such. In retrospect, it does sound little harsh to bash vsts but ....well....truth-be-told they're weak. And don't confuse the sound quality with this point I am making , the vst sound quality is amazing, I am specificly speaking in terms of stability and solidity. True, a lot of re synthesizers will massacre computer dsp usage and stop working .....but thats a problem with weaker budget computers. My consumer level macbook pro retina (i7 8gb ram) has never ran out dsp ever in reason.

[chk071]

Reason is the total crap, and RE's are really weak compared to VST's. Sorry if offended anyone, not my intention!

Btw, i don't know which VST's you have tested, but i have no problem with stability. And CPU consumption pretty much depends on the detail of sound, oversampling, or filter model. Which all have to do with sound quality, more or less. And i have read more than once elsewhere that there are RE's, which literally slaughter your CPU. Predator is one of those, if i recall correctly. There are some VST's which slaughter your CPU too, NI Monark e.g. But most synth are pretty moderate in terms of system usage. It really depends. If you want to have a very accurate analog model, it will cost you. Also as a RE. It's difficult to compare though i think. RE SDK has many limitations VST SDK does not have, hence there are things possible in VST which are not possible in RE, thus might need more CPU.

[pjeudy]

So DNA...RE's are more stable then VST ..because of how Props keeps it sandboxed and everything else that goes with ..Ok...I'm not gonna argue that.
But here's the thing, people seem to not give a shit...because you can't show me a flood of Engineers Producers running to REASON.
But you can follow any engineer/Artist/producer on social media in magazine or anywhere, who uses a computer to make music, who is not using a VST host DAW.
Yes I understand that VST's have been out Sooner then RE's....But in the internet age, anytime a piece of software Tech is released that greatly improve the stability and make life easier for a Producer/engineer...people would flock to it and promote it as a revolutionary piece of software that's a god send for people in Music...RE's have been out for years now.... and Failed to make the case that it's stability is the #1 reason why people should abandon that old format called VST.

So this tell me that Props needs more then just "hey look our plugin don't crash as often" they need RE's too Perform exactly as VST interns of feature and then they need to surpass said feature with things that can only be done with RE's...and even then you are not guaranteed that if such a thing where to happen that VST developers wouldn't simply copy and start implementing those same ideas.Which then leaves RE's in a state of always playing catch up. Unless RE's can demonstrate a clear superior advantage other then stability...but stability is a great start.

Now, I'm not saying that Engineers/Producers not breaking the doors at Propellerhead to buy REASON...Doesn't not mean that RE'S don't perform solidly. My view is and this is where you may have a problem understanding is that on balance RE's performing solidly is not the Sole reason to favor Rack Extensions.

Other then performing in a more stable manner versus VST...on almost every aspect VST allow developers including your self more option to create there vision. For example could SERUM be made in REASON today? Steve Dudda the dev of SERUM , while traveling on a tour bus with other musicians/producers got inspired to create a fantastic sounding and performing piece of Software Tech...That was 2 years ago !? and still can't be easily fully ported 1:1 as an RE.

Of course there some very cool things that RE's allow for: CV routing/Running Audio through other devices/300 undo ...other then those things (and maybe a few more I'm not thinking about right now) what RE do you know of that can't be made as a VST? with possibly more features added then can be done in the RE Sdk at that.

RE's are stable for the most part??... YES they are...you are the winner of this common knowledge in the REASON community. But is that stability all that matters ? the market according to what I see says nope...not enough Props (I'm not talking about financial Market,I have no idea how much money Props makes) . Some day I'm sure...But as I see it, when ever there is a major Audio advancement news (or just some cool new plugin tech coming) at those Shows or convention....My un-scientific opinion says that 99.999% of them are NEVER revealed as Rack Extension EVER.
I can't remember if I ever Saw a developer say " this Plugin is only possible do the the RE SDK" Maybe you have.

To Answer the OP's title: NO Vst's are not weaker then RE's... if this is how you want to frame the comparison in this simplistic none informative format, then I'll respect your thread, I'll stay on topic and say: RE's are weaker then VST's

[chk071]

I think it's merely a business decision. Effort and time invested against profit made. Obviously a lot of devs don't think the ratio is right, otherwise we would see a lot more RE's. Devs like Reveal-Sound can't port their product due to limitations in the RE SDK. RE seems a rather half-assed attempt from Propellerhead to shut up the people constantly begging for VST support. Sorry. Either they do it right, or they shouldn't do it at all. If they really want to give people an alternative, and want to motivate devs to develop RE's, it's GOT to be on par with VST, at least. Actually, it has to be better, for people to buy RE's, AND to make them buy Reason on top of that, because they think some RE's are irreplacable.

[tibah]

Perception is everything.

Otherwise - some RE developer going a bit bananas.

[avasopht]

But in the internet age, anytime a piece of software Tech is released that greatly improve the stability and make life easier for a Producer/engineer...people would flock to it and promote it as a revolutionary piece of software that's a god send for people in Music...RE's have been out for years now.... and Failed to make the case that it's stability is the #1 reason why people should abandon that old format called VST.

See "Worse is Better," and how "Good Enough" overpowers brilliant when it comes to technologies. It seems paradoxical but when investigated makes a lot of sense. Sometimes there are other factors, such as adoption rates and culture. For instance our internet could have been much faster and more secure, but the simpler format won at the time because it was completely open (IIRC, .. or something of that nature).

When it comes to RE vs VST, no doubt, the pros do not come without cons, so it's difficult to say RE's are absolutely better than VSTs. At most they have some pretty awesome improvements and a level of forward thinking that 10 years down the line will pay dividends.

Propellerhead's patent will cause some controversy in the near future.

From a technological standpoint it's incredibly easy to improve on VSTs but it would be a wasted effort because nobody would adopt it. AU for example is only adopted because it's the only way to be compatible with Logic, not because it's an improvement. Ditto for Javascript and C. Any improvement has to contend with the fact that C and Javascript are good enough, has an army of programmers and is already supported in places you are not.

As for the OP. I can understand excitement over the strengths of RE's but VST is more than good enough because is covers the most common use case well, which is audio effects and virtual instruments. And if I had to pick between VST and Rewire I'd pick VST every time (because VSTs are saved with the project).

FL Studio has its own plugin protocol too. Or you can target Reaktor.

[tibah]

VST - great possibilities, sick deals, nice 2nd hand market, insane amount of freeware available, just no "working" host/DAW for me personally to interact with them

RE - less possibilities, deals like 2-3 times a year, no 2nd hand market, amount of freeware is manageable, nice integration in my favorite DAW

So, basically RE doesn't do it for me because of stability, but because I can access them in the environment I like the most. I also don't like to manage a VST collection. Copy protections. What goes where. x86, x64, preset loading via host or via the VST itself. The list goes on.

[Skullture]

Vsts are for for poor pirate producers.... money

money

You make an interesting comment, however. You seem to mix up two important points. One being the pirating aspect, and the other one being the quality of the product. These are two separate subjects imo. So I'm confused what the point is you're trying to make.

The point is clear. Read the Subject title.

Not at all, lol. What are you saying? Something is "weak". You're not defining "weak".

[Dante]

I agree RE are superior to VST. But here is 10 great reasons some not mentioned yet.

1) RE are much easier to buy and install (one stop shop with no Paypal required all buyable with Credit Card).
2) RE are much easier to keep track of licenses etc, without having to register on obscure websites that are not always available or easy to navigate.
3) Can have them all updated/synced with a single button press in license center.
4) RE have a more predictable and attractive sale/discount cycle. You can get most of what you want cheaper if you wait. Some VST never go on sale.
5) Yes they are generally much more stable.
6) They sound awesome - there are only a few VST synths left that need to be beaten (Uhe DIVA, Omnispere etc) and they are CPU hogs.
7) Better integration and workflow than any VST I've ever used and its all standard whereas VST's from different manufacturers all have their own rules.
8) They are a standard width and vertical fold up size
9) Most of them have CV.
10) Many RE unique to RE format even by makers of VST.

So really @DNA Apocalypse, there is no debate to be had.

[geir]

Very good points and I love REs, but it doesn't matter how good (we think) the technology is if it is hardly supported. All major plugin companies support VST. Almost none of them support RE's.

[bitword]

n/a

[DNA Apocalypse]

Vsts are for for poor pirate producers.... money

money

You make an interesting comment, however. You seem to mix up two important points. One being the pirating aspect, and the other one being the quality of the product. These are two separate subjects imo. So I'm confused what the point is you're trying to make.

The point is clear. Read the Subject title.

Not at all, lol. What are you saying? Something is "weak". You're not defining "weak".

OK what I mean is: There is a feeling of solidity in performance when using REs as compared to the fidgety issues of VST stability. I mean there is a strength I notice in the performance of , specifically all Reason instruments/effects but more direct, I mean REs because they are direct rivals of VSTs IMO. Its the easiest word I can think of to describe them...

[kuhliloach]

The industry standard is also the most pirated. That would be VST's. The result of the piracy is more positive than negative; it seems to generally increase widespread exposure, which in turn results in more legit sales and overall hype. Let's not bag on bedroom pirates too much. They are an important part of the scene.

Now on to the question of whether or not RE's are "better". Of course they are. They are special. Like you. And me.

[Dante]

Very good points and I love REs, but it doesn't matter how good (we think) the technology is if it is hardly supported. All major plugin companies support VST. Almost none of them support RE's.

Doesnt matter how ?

Firstly, there are a number of major players on the RE circuit, I don't need to name them.

Secondly, if you get what you need then its somewhat irrelevant how many VST plugin companies also support RE.

[Gulale]

Oh my did you say VST weak? Please pick your favorite Re which is available for both format i.e. Softube reverb or kuassa and I will do the test. And I'm sure I will run double number if not triple instances without a problem while Reason sneezes a forgive me message. Why talk while we can do the test.

[platzangst]

The industry standard is also the most pirated. That would be VST's. The result of the piracy is more positive than negative; it seems to generally increase widespread exposure, which in turn results in more legit sales and overall hype.

Emphasis on "seems". Every time I hear this, there's only shaky actual evidence to back it up, plus a lot of anecdotes. As time goes on I become more skeptical about this claim.

Let's not bag on bedroom pirates too much. They are an important part of the scene.

Well, let's not pretend they're some sort of heroes, either. Pirates are freeloaders; taking advantage of other peoples' work without giving those people anything tangible in return. At the base of the pirate is the impulse: "I want this, but I don't want to pay for it, so I will take it anyway." Let's not give them any false sense of nobility by justifying their theft as performing some kind of community service.

I've been broke and done questionable things in those times, but I never tried to fool myself that I was doing anyone a favor when I did those things.

[DNA Apocalypse]

I have to be brutally honest. This was a calculated thread to reveal the reason haters floating around in this reason forum. Thanks for exposing yourselves! I'll go back into my little hole now. By the way I love the sounds VSTs are capable of and also the lack of limitations....but if you read what I said, I am NOT speaking on that aspect at all, I am speaking on the errors they make when in use. (not errors caused by dsp handicapped computers)