Refill designers should move to making RE's only.

[bxbrkrz]

ROMpler RE's like Hydronexius and many others are great tools. I think lots (all?) of refills should be converted into RE's. Better, safer income for developers. I think it will happen. I hope it will happen. What are the main obstacles that keep refill devs to do so?

[Michaellos]

I don't think it's a good idea for every refill to be released as a device. Your rack's gonna become huge with many devices, sometimes primitive. And I can't agree that Hydronexius could be released as a refill, for it is more complex

[Loque]

I prefere single samples or loops in some cases, that allow me to modify them. If it is a complete instrument mapped to an NNXT, i would agree to provide it as a RE, but it still requires more effort to develop and finaly could make it more expensive.

But i see the "protection" thing here and i think thats why some decided to make their stuff as RE. Wondering why there isnt a way to easily protect refills the same way through the PH shop. Maybe PH can improve this to a refill 2.0 format with copy protection like the RE.

[submonsterz]

Sorry i think bad idea if romplers/idt load mass amounts in at one go .
If you like me use the odd sound from different refills / sample packs etc im shure having to load a device for each sound that loads a lot of other un nessecasry data is a bad idea its not like ram is infinate . And some of the idts are huge ram wise .
So with this is mind i can see ram being an issue very quickly for a lot of people.

[Michaellos]

And how should developers work out new sound libraries for existing synthesizers/samplers/romplers ? Create rack extensions for rack extensions ? ))

[submonsterz]

And how should developers work out new sound libraries for existing synthesizers/samplers/romplers ? Create rack extensions for rack extensions ? ))

Turn2on have done this ""in a way"" all ready with black pole .
They have selectable roms via a switch on the back of the device .
But still there needs to be a way of just loading the sounds you need only via browser etc instead of a full rom load of sounds .as i say some idt are large in file size needs adressing to be honest to make them more effiecient in the handling of ram sizes used.
I could be wrong but i see the huge amounts of ram dissapear loading in heavy idt devices per device .

[frog974new]

ROMpler RE's like Hydronexius and many others are great tools. I think lots (all?) of refills should be converted into RE's. Better, safer income for developers. I think it will happen. I hope it will happen. What are the main obstacles that keep refill devs to do so?

don't forget those points.
Re format needs :
- a fresh GUI
- knowlegde on programmation , IDT tool kits dev to manage DSP , input lag , spilt issue RAM ..i.e
...

Refills is all about only sound design

in other way , as explained by submonsterz , Refills with patch based on stock samplers from reason steel the best option for low setup/config .
Imagine a piece orchestral with above 30-40 channels ..Oo , if you done this with only Rompler or huge IDT RE , how many users can stand that kind of project ..?

[bxbrkrz]

Maybe the Props could create a RE Key format + Refill 2.0.
A (unique) RE key would be provided to the refill designer from the Props. We purchase the (pairing) RE Key once ($9?) It's a RE that can be updated every time a developer create a new refill or update an old one, just like any RE. It doesn't even need to be a visible rack, but it will show up on our authorizer list. The action of purchasing a key would give the designer an exact idea of how big its market is.

[Softphonics]

"Refill designers should move to making RE's only"

Just one of many refill developers here, and from our point of view i have to totally disagree with that unfortunately.

And the following reasons are from 2 points of view, both as avid reason musicians, but also from a business perspective.

• (1) RE's - Can only be sold in one place - Refills are sold by many stores making it much more worth our while (Closed market vs Open market) In some parts of the world our refills are sold (As Hardcopies in stores), more than they would be in the Prop shop) So why cut off that option for them reason musicians but also cut off what money essentially keeps us developing new sounds.
  
  (2) RE's / IDT Romplers are extremely annoying, labor intensive and time consuming to construct & propellerhead pay the same amount for an IDT & a Refill when sold.
  
  (3) For a Sample heavy refill developer like us, time is best spent getting the instruments recorded properly. Messing around with the process of building an RE on top of that for less reward is anti intuitive.
  
  (4) Refills allow users to access the core sounds, the engine that drives the refill, Romplers deny this access, Creative musicians hate this!
  
  (5) Serious musicians love a good sound library, one that they can call upon when needed, Refill is the "Sound library" of reason. IDT is just a fancier way of delivering the "Sound library" without the perks of actually being able to access core sounds.
  
  (6) There is many other reasons that I wont bore you with, I'm sure other developers can throw in their feelings on it. We have pushed for a more progressive modern system like Kontakt with Props for years now, Maybe someday they may listen closer and then you will see Softphonics devices in Reason.

Hope that helps!
Have a nice weekend everyone

[DNA Apocalypse]

Refills require way way less technical "know-how" to produce therefore its ideal for a lot of entry level sound designers to get started. I love refills and I think refills are great...however I think they are great as preset expansions for REs and stock Synthesizers. If you produce sample based refills, your virtually giving anyone access to copy your refill and pirate your content, it's not a very protected business move IMO and until the invention of REs/IDTs developers had no choice. There is still obstacles for developers which are: 1-programming skills 2-capital 3-graphic design......many sound designers produce great sounds but lack one or more of those pre-requisites (judging on the custom combinator backdrops I've seen in some refills...lol definitely 3-graphic design). In any case refills serve a good purpose and REs serve a good purpose...I like them both!

[PurpleMonkeyDishes]

Refills require way way less technical "know-how" to produce therefore its ideal for a lot of entry level sound designers to get started. I love refills and I think refills are great...however I think they are great as preset expansions for REs and stock Synthesizers. If you produce sample based refills, your virtually giving anyone access to copy your refill and pirate your content, it's not a very protected business move IMO and until the invention of REs/IDTs developers had no choice. There is still obstacles for developers which are: 1-programming skills 2-capital 3-graphic design......many sound designers produce great sounds but lack one or more of those pre-requisites (judging on the custom combinator backdrops I've seen in some refills...lol definitely 3-graphic design). In any case refills serve a good purpose and REs serve a good purpose...I like them both!

Once again, DNA talking down to people.. So you are calling Softphonics and similar sample based guys "Entry level" sound designer..
And you are laughing at some developers combinator skins, anything to make yourself feel better is it?

Climb down off your high horse it must be lonely up there, 99% of your own shop content is refill format.

The more you talk in this forum the more of an introspective force you seem to become. People can see through the smarm.
Anyone developer who stands on others publicly to get ahead is not worth the steam off my piss IMHO and I have no problem calling them out.

Give us all a break

[Marco Raaphorst]

ROMpler RE's like Hydronexius and many others are great tools. I think lots (all?) of refills should be converted into RE's. Better, safer income for developers. I think it will happen. I hope it will happen. What are the main obstacles that keep refill devs to do so?

I don't agree. A Combinator can be a great idea because you can load new samples and tweak the devices. A RE is like a Combi with DRM. Good example is Audiomatic which is nice but it would be so much nicer if Audiomatic was a Combinator anyone could open to tweak.

Developing RE's takes a lot of time. You can only sell them on the Prop shop and the Props take a lot of money from the profit. With ReFill you can sell them in your own shop and all money is yours.

Like comparing apples with bananas.

[DNA Apocalypse]

Refills require way way less technical "know-how" to produce therefore its ideal for a lot of entry level sound designers to get started. I love refills and I think refills are great...however I think they are great as preset expansions for REs and stock Synthesizers. If you produce sample based refills, your virtually giving anyone access to copy your refill and pirate your content, it's not a very protected business move IMO and until the invention of REs/IDTs developers had no choice. There is still obstacles for developers which are: 1-programming skills 2-capital 3-graphic design......many sound designers produce great sounds but lack one or more of those pre-requisites (judging on the custom combinator backdrops I've seen in some refills...lol definitely 3-graphic design). In any case refills serve a good purpose and REs serve a good purpose...I like them both!

Once again, DNA talking down to people.. So you are calling Softphonics and similar sample based guys "Entry level" sound designer..
And you are laughing at some developers combinator skins, anything to make yourself feel better is it?

Climb down off your high horse it must be lonely up there, 99% of your own shop content is refill format.

The more you talk in this forum the more of an introspective force you seem to become. People can see through the smarm.
Anyone developer who stands on others publicly to get ahead is not worth the steam off my piss IMHO and I have no problem calling them out.

Give us all a break

I'm not talking down, merely stating an opinion you disagree with. So relax and stop being so mad at life. Did you read the part where I said I love refills, you probably didn't get that far? I may regret to say it but did you release any refills with custom graphics recently....lol this may explain your anger? Why would you twist my words and implicate that I meant Soft phonics is entry level? I said refills are ideal for entry level sound designers to get started. Soft phonics is not entry level at all, they are established IMO. When I said that I meant it as a great thing since I love refills...please stop being so disgruntled MonkeyDish.

[selig]

Refills require way way less technical "know-how" to produce therefore its ideal for a lot of entry level sound designers to get started. I love refills and I think refills are great...however I think they are great as preset expansions for REs and stock Synthesizers. If you produce sample based refills, your virtually giving anyone access to copy your refill and pirate your content, it's not a very protected business move IMO and until the invention of REs/IDTs developers had no choice. There is still obstacles for developers which are: 1-programming skills 2-capital 3-graphic design......many sound designers produce great sounds but lack one or more of those pre-requisites (judging on the custom combinator backdrops I've seen in some refills...lol definitely 3-graphic design). In any case refills serve a good purpose and REs serve a good purpose...I like them both!

Once again, DNA talking down to people.. So you are calling Softphonics and similar sample based guys "Entry level" sound designer..
And you are laughing at some developers combinator skins, anything to make yourself feel better is it?

Climb down off your high horse it must be lonely up there, 99% of your own shop content is refill format.

The more you talk in this forum the more of an introspective force you seem to become. People can see through the smarm.
Anyone developer who stands on others publicly to get ahead is not worth the steam off my piss IMHO and I have no problem calling them out.

Give us all a break

I didn't read it that way at all! And I've definitely not agreed with all of DNA's posts in the past, so I'm not saying this as a fan boy in any way…
BTW, "calling someone out" is literally "fighting words" and best left out of our forum discourse IMO.

[selig]

ROMpler RE's like Hydronexius and many others are great tools. I think lots (all?) of refills should be converted into RE's. Better, safer income for developers. I think it will happen. I hope it will happen. What are the main obstacles that keep refill devs to do so?

I don't agree. A Combinator can be a great idea because you can load new samples and tweak the devices. A RE is like a Combi with DRM. Good example is Audiomatic which is nice but it would be so much nicer if Audiomatic was a Combinator anyone could open to tweak.

Developing RE's takes a lot of time. You can only sell them on the Prop shop and the Props take a lot of money from the profit. With ReFill you can sell them in your own shop and all money is yours.

Like comparing apples with bananas.

BUT - something like ART could have easily been built as an RE that allowed you access to all of it's modules, some of which are not available as Reason devices - so is that still a good example of the point you're making (sincerely asking)?

[Marco Raaphorst]

ROMpler RE's like Hydronexius and many others are great tools. I think lots (all?) of refills should be converted into RE's. Better, safer income for developers. I think it will happen. I hope it will happen. What are the main obstacles that keep refill devs to do so?

I don't agree. A Combinator can be a great idea because you can load new samples and tweak the devices. A RE is like a Combi with DRM. Good example is Audiomatic which is nice but it would be so much nicer if Audiomatic was a Combinator anyone could open to tweak.

Developing RE's takes a lot of time. You can only sell them on the Prop shop and the Props take a lot of money from the profit. With ReFill you can sell them in your own shop and all money is yours.

Like comparing apples with bananas.

BUT - something like ART could have easily been built as an RE that allowed you access to all of it's modules, some of which are not available as Reason devices - so is that still a good example of the point you're making (sincerely asking)?

aha ok, ART then is the wrong example. I thought it uses nothing but the default devices.

[selig]

ROMpler RE's like Hydronexius and many others are great tools. I think lots (all?) of refills should be converted into RE's. Better, safer income for developers. I think it will happen. I hope it will happen. What are the main obstacles that keep refill devs to do so?

I don't agree. A Combinator can be a great idea because you can load new samples and tweak the devices. A RE is like a Combi with DRM. Good example is Audiomatic which is nice but it would be so much nicer if Audiomatic was a Combinator anyone could open to tweak.

Developing RE's takes a lot of time. You can only sell them on the Prop shop and the Props take a lot of money from the profit. With ReFill you can sell them in your own shop and all money is yours.

Like comparing apples with bananas.

BUT - something like ART could have easily been built as an RE that allowed you access to all of it's modules, some of which are not available as Reason devices - so is that still a good example of the point you're making (sincerely asking)?

aha ok, ART then is the wrong example. I thought it uses nothing but the default devices.

I too thought that any of the modules could be replicated, but when I tried to re-create "Wash", even being able to isolate one or two of the modules, I was unable to find anything that could even come close to recreating the exact effect. OTOH, I was able to build "Tape" with less struggle, but still, it required some frequency response testing and mapping of each module in order to get close enough to call it a match.

But it brings up a point I had tried to make in Bitley's thread, that the real creative ReFill developer that could make the transition to the RE world would be creating ReFills that used multiple REs of their own creation in order to take advantage of the best of both worlds.

In other words, IMO it's not an "either/or" situation at all! There are immense possibilities when you can build custom devices that are then used as parts of bigger ReFills. I know there are plenty of times when I wanted a "certain thing" in a Combinator that didn't yet exist (Gain is one of them, btw), and wished I could simply build it from scratch Reaktor style.

It will take either a collaboration or a versatile developer to bridge this gap, but the concept is there just waiting to be realized - was hoping Bitley would take this route, but there are plenty of other content creators that have the goods. Just waiting to see if one has the skills and the vision (and the desire — and the time!).

[Marco Raaphorst]

ROMpler RE's like Hydronexius and many others are great tools. I think lots (all?) of refills should be converted into RE's. Better, safer income for developers. I think it will happen. I hope it will happen. What are the main obstacles that keep refill devs to do so?

I don't agree. A Combinator can be a great idea because you can load new samples and tweak the devices. A RE is like a Combi with DRM. Good example is Audiomatic which is nice but it would be so much nicer if Audiomatic was a Combinator anyone could open to tweak.

Developing RE's takes a lot of time. You can only sell them on the Prop shop and the Props take a lot of money from the profit. With ReFill you can sell them in your own shop and all money is yours.

Like comparing apples with bananas.

BUT - something like ART could have easily been built as an RE that allowed you access to all of it's modules, some of which are not available as Reason devices - so is that still a good example of the point you're making (sincerely asking)?

aha ok, ART then is the wrong example. I thought it uses nothing but the default devices.

I too thought that any of the modules could be replicated, but when I tried to re-create "Wash", even being able to isolate one or two of the modules, I was unable to find anything that could even come close to recreating the exact effect. OTOH, I was able to build "Tape" with less struggle, but still, it required some frequency response testing and mapping of each module in order to get close enough to call it a match.

But it brings up a point I had tried to make in Bitley's thread, that the real creative ReFill developer that could make the transition to the RE world would be creating ReFills that used multiple REs of their own creation in order to take advantage of the best of both worlds.

In other words, IMO it's not an "either/or" situation at all! There are immense possibilities when you can build custom devices that are then used as parts of bigger ReFills. I know there are plenty of times when I wanted a "certain thing" in a Combinator that didn't yet exist (Gain is one of them, btw), and wished I could simply build it from scratch Reaktor style.

It will take either a collaboration or a versatile developer to bridge this gap, but the concept is there just waiting to be realized - was hoping Bitley would take this route, but there are plenty of other content creators that have the goods. Just waiting to see if one has the skills and the vision (and the desire — and the time!).

I will keep this in mind. Business wise I find the ReFill market very tricky. Not yet convinced if I will succeed in what I hoped for. Profit margin on Prop Shop is small.

[bxbrkrz]

ROMpler RE's like Hydronexius and many others are great tools. I think lots (all?) of refills should be converted into RE's. Better, safer income for developers. I think it will happen. I hope it will happen. What are the main obstacles that keep refill devs to do so?

I don't agree. A Combinator can be a great idea because you can load new samples and tweak the devices. A RE is like a Combi with DRM. Good example is Audiomatic which is nice but it would be so much nicer if Audiomatic was a Combinator anyone could open to tweak.

Developing RE's takes a lot of time. You can only sell them on the Prop shop and the Props take a lot of money from the profit. With ReFill you can sell them in your own shop and all money is yours.

Like comparing apples with bananas.

BUT - something like ART could have easily been built as an RE that allowed you access to all of it's modules, some of which are not available as Reason devices - so is that still a good example of the point you're making (sincerely asking)?

aha ok, ART then is the wrong example. I thought it uses nothing but the default devices.

I too thought that any of the modules could be replicated, but when I tried to re-create "Wash", even being able to isolate one or two of the modules, I was unable to find anything that could even come close to recreating the exact effect. OTOH, I was able to build "Tape" with less struggle, but still, it required some frequency response testing and mapping of each module in order to get close enough to call it a match.

But it brings up a point I had tried to make in Bitley's thread, that the real creative ReFill developer that could make the transition to the RE world would be creating ReFills that used multiple REs of their own creation in order to take advantage of the best of both worlds.

In other words, IMO it's not an "either/or" situation at all! There are immense possibilities when you can build custom devices that are then used as parts of bigger ReFills. I know there are plenty of times when I wanted a "certain thing" in a Combinator that didn't yet exist (Gain is one of them, btw), and wished I could simply build it from scratch Reaktor style.

It will take either a collaboration or a versatile developer to bridge this gap, but the concept is there just waiting to be realized - was hoping Bitley would take this route, but there are plenty of other content creators that have the goods. Just waiting to see if one has the skills and the vision (and the desire — and the time!).

Not an "either/or" situation is exactly what I was trying to conceptualize here. The freedom of selling your refill anywhere, or give it away would still exist with a RE Key system. I never said the refill 2.0 had to be sold as RE, just the (invisible) RE Key. But if all Refill developers here believe this concept to be a bad idea then so be it. It is just weird some artists with lots of talent can find a way to lock their creation by building a RE, and great sound designers find their refills on bit torrent the day of their official release. We have now two separate markets. You make a RE. Its sucks. No one likes it. You sell nothing. You make zero $. You make a refill. Everybody loves it. You sell nothing. You make zero $.
This wasn't just a reply to this post, obviously

[mreese80]

I like refills. The best ones are Bitleys. Next imho are pinknoise. Not enough sounds or RE's imo. Vst's are where the sound libraries are, and inside of kontakt. Reason just lacks.

[PurpleMonkeyDishes]

Refills require way way less technical "know-how" to produce therefore its ideal for a lot of entry level sound designers to get started. I love refills and I think refills are great...however I think they are great as preset expansions for REs and stock Synthesizers. If you produce sample based refills, your virtually giving anyone access to copy your refill and pirate your content, it's not a very protected business move IMO and until the invention of REs/IDTs developers had no choice. There is still obstacles for developers which are: 1-programming skills 2-capital 3-graphic design......many sound designers produce great sounds but lack one or more of those pre-requisites (judging on the custom combinator backdrops I've seen in some refills...lol definitely 3-graphic design). In any case refills serve a good purpose and REs serve a good purpose...I like them both!

Once again, DNA talking down to people.. So you are calling Softphonics and similar sample based guys "Entry level" sound designer..
And you are laughing at some developers combinator skins, anything to make yourself feel better is it?

Climb down off your high horse it must be lonely up there, 99% of your own shop content is refill format.

The more you talk in this forum the more of an introspective force you seem to become. People can see through the smarm.
Anyone developer who stands on others publicly to get ahead is not worth the steam off my piss IMHO and I have no problem calling them out.

Give us all a break

I'm not talking down, merely stating an opinion you disagree with. So relax and stop being so mad at life. Did you read the part where I said I love refills, you probably didn't get that far? I may regret to say it but did you release any refills with custom graphics recently....lol this may explain your anger? Why would you twist my words and implicate that I meant Soft phonics is entry level? I said refills are ideal for entry level sound designers to get started. Soft phonics is not entry level at all, they are established IMO. When I said that I meant it as a great thing since I love refills...please stop being so disgruntled MonkeyDish.

- Just a regular reason user, long time spender
- I personally am not a refill maker nor an RE maker
- I don't make combi skins
- I am not mad at life
- I can read

Even in your answer you are still taking digs at people, not very clever advertising in fairness.

[Marco Raaphorst]

I am not convinced that copy protection will cause "Better, safer income for developers." It's probably the other way around.

[bxbrkrz]

I am not convinced that copy protection will cause "Better, safer income for developers." It's probably the other way around.

"Probably" is not convincing either when I look at the RE market, from a buyer perspective.

[Marco Raaphorst]

I am not convinced that copy protection will cause "Better, safer income for developers." It's probably the other way around.

"Probably" is not convincing either when I look at the RE market, from a buyer perspective.

I am not sure how successful the RE market is. Really don't know.

[sdst]

the solution here is a new combinator

that you can put more buttons, knobs and Skin

would be like a rack extension