What do Rack Extension developers think about Reason 11 / Reason Rack Plugin?

[Cesco]

What do you think about Reason 11 and Reason Rack Plugin?

Personally, I'm excited about Reason Rack Plugin and I hope this will generate more revenue for the rack extensions developers.
I think the rack extension lost its shine after the VST implementation.


Tip to the Reason Studios team:

A Reason Rack Plugin version for free would also be a good idea
with maybe a few devices.


... and yes I only use Reason as DAW

[danc]

Really love the new sequencing improvements - although I really thought they'd have added more than 6.

Then over to the rack....

One of my wishes for a long time has been to somehow allow me to have multiple racks... then I could be organised... so that I don't have this super massive out of control sprawling rack like thing that currently builds up as I create my tunes. Then I thought ... excellent... I could start using the Rack VST and organise my racks that way in Reason.

Oh wait on... it's VST3. Wait on... wait on... wait on... darn it...

Reason can't run a Reason VST made by Reason Studios... because it's not compatible !!?!!!

That sounds like it should be a joke told by other DAW users taking the piss out of Reason - but it's not. It's the truth.

[antic604]

Reason can't run a Reason VST made by Reason Studios... because it's not compatible !!?!!!

That sounds like it should be a joke told by other DAW users taking the piss out of Reason - but it's not. It's the truth.

Really!? Why would you want to run Rack VST inside Reason? What's the practical benefit? And why would you want to sacrifice performance, because obviously there's gonna be - very small I assume, but still - overhead due to VST wrapper?

[danc]

Reason can't run a Reason VST made by Reason Studios... because it's not compatible !!?!!!

That sounds like it should be a joke told by other DAW users taking the piss out of Reason - but it's not. It's the truth.

Really!? Why would you want to run Rack VST inside Reason? What's the practical benefit? And why would you want to sacrifice performance, because obviously there's gonna be - very small I assume, but still - overhead due to VST wrapper?

Because my racks get out of hand in terms of size. I would prefer to have many little racks. Yes I can run rack lanes - but even that isn't a great experience.

And also - I do apologise for ranting about this on this thread... as the starting question relates to RE developers and their thoughts. So - sorry... I rushed with my thoughts after reading the blurb on the Propellerheads website.. and didn't concentrate enough on the premise of the subject.

[Boombastix]

Because my racks get out of hand in terms of size. I would prefer to have many little racks. Yes I can run rack lanes - but even that isn't a great experience.

Let's keep each thread on subject. But the Reason Rack VST is basically a Combinator in VST format. We all have Combinators to stay organized in Reason and folded up under a Mix Channel, makes it small. If you are creative you can make your own skins with a name you like and can see folded up (Synth name, or instrument name, or whatever). It is all available already, no?

[mcatalao]

Because my racks get out of hand in terms of size. I would prefer to have many little racks. Yes I can run rack lanes - but even that isn't a great experience.

Let's keep each thread on subject. But the Reason Rack VST is basically a Combinator in VST format. We all have Combinators to stay organized in Reason and folded up under a Mix Channel, makes it small. If you are creative you can make your own skins with a name you like and can see folded up (Synth name, or instrument name, or whatever). It is all available already, no?

And side by side racks.

[joeyluck]

We can allow this separate thread, but it should be limited to developers only.

Otherwise, if users are just going to voice their opinions in yet another thread, we can merge it or lock it.

[pongasoft]

I posted this comment in another thread but due to the sheer amount of comments, just wanted to share it as a developer in this thread:

In regards to writing a RE that will run inside the VST Rack plugin vs writing directly a VST plugin, in theory, what PH brings to the table is that, as a developer, you only have to worry about implementing your business logic code on the platform of your choice (ex: macOS or Windows). You don't have to deal about compiling it on multiple platforms. You don't have to worry about implementing DRM (how to make sure, if you sell it for money, that people are not going to crack it and use it for free, or to manage licenses, etc...). You don't have to worry about packaging it and hosting it. etc...

Of course all this comes at a price since PH charges a fee for all this, BUT it saves you a lot of work and if you can expand your audience to any user that use a VST compatible DAW, this is huge.

BUT, and there are multiple big BUTs:

1) this is the theory... in practice though, the RE environment is way more constraining than the VST one (one big obvious drawback is low resolution). The flow (using PH build server to publish your plugin, using the PH shop, posting a new description of your product) can be excruciatingly painful and slow mostly because of lack of resources (and don't get me started about the summer vacation...). The good news though is that in theory, those are fixable issues... but I have switched to VST development while waiting for those to happen (over 2 years now...). If they want to keep RE devs and attract new ones they are going to need to up their game significantly...

2) if they don't release a FREE or close to FREE version of the VST Rack Plugin I strongly believe they will attract nobody. At $99, it is just way too expensive. I assume that the $99 version will include the "stock" devices (like Thor, Redrum, etc...). It would be fine to have a FREE version that is just the empty rack with no stock devices... that way you can't "cheat" and get Reason for free... And you can always buy the stock devices for $99... But the huge difference is that anybody can download it and try it and use many of the free REs that are available or just buy <enter you most favorite RE here> without having to shell <price of you most favorite RE here> + $99...

In the end I do not know where they are going exactly. We haven't seen the new SDK nor whether they are planning to be more open like VST SDK or continue to be a completely closed platform (which is damaging...). I would be happy to start working on REs again but it will really depend on what they are going to do with the platform. Only time will tell.

Yan

[BigPictureSound]

removed to stay on thread topic

[danc]

Because my racks get out of hand in terms of size. I would prefer to have many little racks. Yes I can run rack lanes - but even that isn't a great experience.

And also - I do apologise for ranting about this on this thread... as the starting question relates to RE developers and their thoughts. So - sorry... I rushed with my thoughts after reading the blurb on the Propellerheads website.. and didn't concentrate enough on the premise of the subject.

I can respect this, but I feel this is something the developers can handle more eloquently than us having to use a vst workaround, like being able to collapse a rack into something like a channel strip (vertically). The infinite rack workflow from left to right with a virtual hand to pan around X and Y just isn’t ideal.

Agree with you - however... with the knowledge that a 'proper' solution isn't imminent any time soon... you sometimes have to resort to workarounds - hence this suggestion (although unworkable due to Reason's VST3 incompatibility).

BTW - think we should move this discussion over to a new Rack thoughts thread and leave the RE developers to discuss how they feel about the Reason Rack in a VST opportunity for them. However - the fact that this thread has had radio silence for nearly 24-hours from RE developers makes you wonder if anyone is taking REs as a viable business opportunity anymore. Maybe they are so busy counting their jackpot earnings they don't have time to let us know what they think!

[selig]

I posted this comment in another thread but due to the sheer amount of comments, just wanted to share it as a developer in this thread:

In regards to writing a RE that will run inside the VST Rack plugin vs writing directly a VST plugin, in theory, what PH brings to the table is that, as a developer, you only have to worry about implementing your business logic code on the platform of your choice (ex: macOS or Windows). You don't have to deal about compiling it on multiple platforms. You don't have to worry about implementing DRM (how to make sure, if you sell it for money, that people are not going to crack it and use it for free, or to manage licenses, etc...). You don't have to worry about packaging it and hosting it. etc...

Of course all this comes at a price since PH charges a fee for all this, BUT it saves you a lot of work and if you can expand your audience to any user that use a VST compatible DAW, this is huge.

BUT, and there are multiple big BUTs:

1) this is the theory... in practice though, the RE environment is way more constraining than the VST one (one big obvious drawback is low resolution). The flow (using PH build server to publish your plugin, using the PH shop, posting a new description of your product) can be excruciatingly painful and slow mostly because of lack of resources (and don't get me started about the summer vacation...). The good news though is that in theory, those are fixable issues... but I have switched to VST development while waiting for those to happen (over 2 years now...). If they want to keep RE devs and attract new ones they are going to need to up their game significantly...

2) if they don't release a FREE or close to FREE version of the VST Rack Plugin I strongly believe they will attract nobody. At $99, it is just way too expensive. I assume that the $99 version will include the "stock" devices (like Thor, Redrum, etc...). It would be fine to have a FREE version that is just the empty rack with no stock devices... that way you can't "cheat" and get Reason for free... And you can always buy the stock devices for $99... But the huge difference is that anybody can download it and try it and use many of the free REs that are available or just buy <enter you most favorite RE here> without having to shell <price of you most favorite RE here> + $99...

In the end I do not know where they are going exactly. We haven't seen the new SDK nor whether they are planning to be more open like VST SDK or continue to be a completely closed platform (which is damaging...). I would be happy to start working on REs again but it will really depend on what they are going to do with the platform. Only time will tell.

Yan

I'm in a similar position, but lack the skills to move the VST development. So that leaves the Reason Rack route.
I've also suggested (in a different thread and directly to the Props) a simple version that can host a single RE at a time, and is offered for free. There has been push back, from folks suggesting it's not smart to only host one RE at a time (but that's what I'd get if I went the VST route), to folks suggesting that $99 is a great value for what you get (unless you have absolutely no interest in what you get - you just want to run an RE). Plus, there is already a version that hosts multiple REs, and its in beta testing as we speak and costs $99 for anyone needing this option. Others mentioned that $99 is what other wrappers cost - but other wrappers are basically super combinators that support multiple formats and do really cool advanced things - I just want to host an RE!

But IMO what is missing is the option to run an RE in any DAW without additional overhead. I'm curious to hear what other devs think, especially those with no current access to going the VST route.

[Lempface]

I posted this comment in another thread but due to the sheer amount of comments, just wanted to share it as a developer in this thread:

In regards to writing a RE that will run inside the VST Rack plugin vs writing directly a VST plugin, in theory, what PH brings to the table is that, as a developer, you only have to worry about implementing your business logic code on the platform of your choice (ex: macOS or Windows). You don't have to deal about compiling it on multiple platforms. You don't have to worry about implementing DRM (how to make sure, if you sell it for money, that people are not going to crack it and use it for free, or to manage licenses, etc...). You don't have to worry about packaging it and hosting it. etc...

Of course all this comes at a price since PH charges a fee for all this, BUT it saves you a lot of work and if you can expand your audience to any user that use a VST compatible DAW, this is huge.

BUT, and there are multiple big BUTs:

1) this is the theory... in practice though, the RE environment is way more constraining than the VST one (one big obvious drawback is low resolution). The flow (using PH build server to publish your plugin, using the PH shop, posting a new description of your product) can be excruciatingly painful and slow mostly because of lack of resources (and don't get me started about the summer vacation...). The good news though is that in theory, those are fixable issues... but I have switched to VST development while waiting for those to happen (over 2 years now...). If they want to keep RE devs and attract new ones they are going to need to up their game significantly...

2) if they don't release a FREE or close to FREE version of the VST Rack Plugin I strongly believe they will attract nobody. At $99, it is just way too expensive. I assume that the $99 version will include the "stock" devices (like Thor, Redrum, etc...). It would be fine to have a FREE version that is just the empty rack with no stock devices... that way you can't "cheat" and get Reason for free... And you can always buy the stock devices for $99... But the huge difference is that anybody can download it and try it and use many of the free REs that are available or just buy <enter you most favorite RE here> without having to shell <price of you most favorite RE here> + $99...

In the end I do not know where they are going exactly. We haven't seen the new SDK nor whether they are planning to be more open like VST SDK or continue to be a completely closed platform (which is damaging...). I would be happy to start working on REs again but it will really depend on what they are going to do with the platform. Only time will tell.

Yan

I'm in a similar position, but lack the skills to move the VST development. So that leaves the Reason Rack route.
I've also suggested (in a different thread and directly to the Props) a simple version that can host a single RE at a time, and is offered for free. There has been push back, from folks suggesting it's not smart to only host one RE at a time (but that's what I'd get if I went the VST route), to folks suggesting that $99 is a great value for what you get (unless you have absolutely no interest in what you get - you just want to run an RE). Plus, there is already a version that hosts multiple REs, and its in beta testing as we speak and costs $99 for anyone needing this option. Others mentioned that $99 is what other wrappers cost - but other wrappers are basically super combinators that support multiple formats and do really cool advanced things - I just want to host an RE!

But IMO what is missing is the option to run an RE in any DAW without additional overhead. I'm curious to hear what other devs think, especially those with no current access to going the VST route.

I've dabbled in some VST development and I've gotten the RE SDK before but decided it wasn't worth it to pursue because of the narrow market. Something like Selig describes would really give me something to think about as my product wouldn't be locked behind a $100 paywall and anyone who wanted to buy it could host it in the Reason 1U Rack VST (I've already applied for this trademark, back off props, or reason studios or whatever you call yourself now).

I actually think this would be a brilliant marketing strategy from all angles. They could give away a few modules like subtractor and the mclass stuff to give people a taste and get them to install their product. Put a tab in the browser where you can see all REs available in the shop, click a button to try them, they install immediately and are usable without a relaunch. They could even sell the full rack as a smaller charge, say $40 with no additional included modules or just a few extras, and piecemeal out the rest of their effects and synths from Reason standard for a few bucks so people could just get what they wanted if they didn't want to immediately jump into the full $99 price point. I don't see any downsides to this. I think it would attract more devs because the cabling in the rack is just awesome to be able to offer, but again not lock their product behind a paywall.

[Cesco]

I posted this comment in another thread but due to the sheer amount of comments, just wanted to share it as a developer in this thread:

In regards to writing a RE that will run inside the VST Rack plugin vs writing directly a VST plugin, in theory, what PH brings to the table is that, as a developer, you only have to worry about implementing your business logic code on the platform of your choice (ex: macOS or Windows). You don't have to deal about compiling it on multiple platforms. You don't have to worry about implementing DRM (how to make sure, if you sell it for money, that people are not going to crack it and use it for free, or to manage licenses, etc...). You don't have to worry about packaging it and hosting it. etc...

Of course all this comes at a price since PH charges a fee for all this, BUT it saves you a lot of work and if you can expand your audience to any user that use a VST compatible DAW, this is huge.

BUT, and there are multiple big BUTs:

1) this is the theory... in practice though, the RE environment is way more constraining than the VST one (one big obvious drawback is low resolution). The flow (using PH build server to publish your plugin, using the PH shop, posting a new description of your product) can be excruciatingly painful and slow mostly because of lack of resources (and don't get me started about the summer vacation...). The good news though is that in theory, those are fixable issues... but I have switched to VST development while waiting for those to happen (over 2 years now...). If they want to keep RE devs and attract new ones they are going to need to up their game significantly...

2) if they don't release a FREE or close to FREE version of the VST Rack Plugin I strongly believe they will attract nobody. At $99, it is just way too expensive. I assume that the $99 version will include the "stock" devices (like Thor, Redrum, etc...). It would be fine to have a FREE version that is just the empty rack with no stock devices... that way you can't "cheat" and get Reason for free... And you can always buy the stock devices for $99... But the huge difference is that anybody can download it and try it and use many of the free REs that are available or just buy <enter you most favorite RE here> without having to shell <price of you most favorite RE here> + $99...

In the end I do not know where they are going exactly. We haven't seen the new SDK nor whether they are planning to be more open like VST SDK or continue to be a completely closed platform (which is damaging...). I would be happy to start working on REs again but it will really depend on what they are going to do with the platform. Only time will tell.

Yan

I'm in a similar position, but lack the skills to move the VST development. So that leaves the Reason Rack route.
I've also suggested (in a different thread and directly to the Props) a simple version that can host a single RE at a time, and is offered for free. There has been push back, from folks suggesting it's not smart to only host one RE at a time (but that's what I'd get if I went the VST route), to folks suggesting that $99 is a great value for what you get (unless you have absolutely no interest in what you get - you just want to run an RE). Plus, there is already a version that hosts multiple REs, and its in beta testing as we speak and costs $99 for anyone needing this option. Others mentioned that $99 is what other wrappers cost - but other wrappers are basically super combinators that support multiple formats and do really cool advanced things - I just want to host an RE!

But IMO what is missing is the option to run an RE in any DAW without additional overhead. I'm curious to hear what other devs think, especially those with no current access to going the VST route.

What a great idea.

A free version that can host only a single RE ... amazing.

I think that would be very helpful for RE developers.

Free RE Plugin = Test RE 30 days = Buy

[Yonatan]

Too be a bit cynical, probably this will come in some way or the other, but as hithereto the strategy seem be to milk out all possible revenue in steps, leaving each user a bit fooled by the wayside. The last fishes who bite get the best deal way later, for pennies.
The winner in this race is the ones dont really care for Reason but take the last free cake.
So the message one gets from RS marketing and development team is to be ultra patient and resist all temptation and to just wait and wait until all others have paid expensive dollars in things that later is abandoned or included for nothing.
I think that way of doing business is awful.
But then I am really not digging neoliberal ways of making everything about marketing and profit without moral standards. I want the good old business where loyality means something.
At least, now RS allow us to swim with our REs into other waters. Cudos for that. Really good. But free wrapper will come only after majority have upgraded to, or bought 11. So in 1-2 year maybe when things with the plugin version has been sorted out properly.

[boingy]

A free version that can host only a single RE ... amazing.

Wouldn't work. Folks would just chain them together to make a bigger rack. A bit messy but free.
(And could that single RE be a combinator?)

[Breach The Sky]

I have thought about developing for the Re platform in the future. But as I said in another topic, "Do they (Reason Studios) really have Re developers best interest in mind?" They want to sell Reason licenses and get new users into their ecosystem, not allow people to use their tech for free.

This might change tough, what do I know... But the proposition to have my product trapped behind an additional paywall, as Lempface said, isn't exactly in MY best interest. Unless Reason becomes super popular because of the new plugin version, and the potential market grows considerably or something..

[selig]

A free version that can host only a single RE ... amazing.

Wouldn't work. Folks would just chain them together to make a bigger rack. A bit messy but free.
(And could that single RE be a combinator?)

since you wouldn’t have any devices to put in those racks unless you paid for them, and the only thing you could control is the order, how would that not work?

Another idea is to provide a free empty rack with all the power of the main rack. You can purchase REs to fill it, or upgrade to the full Reason Rack if you want the full Reason experience in your DAW.

I don’t care about those details as much as I desire a free entry level for folks wanting to use my REs in other DAWs. The goal is no paywall to use Selig audio REs, as that will open my devices to the largest possible market IMO.

[guitfnky]

A free version that can host only a single RE ... amazing.

Wouldn't work. Folks would just chain them together to make a bigger rack. A bit messy but free.
(And could that single RE be a combinator?)

you wouldn’t be able to route across devices that are in separate VST instances though. and they would probably just disable the combi so you can’t use it (it would be useless anyway as a standalone device with no ability to hook anything else up to it).

I think it would work just fine.

[Yonatan]

Is not a Reason Intro for $59 somwhat a kind of plugin entry level?
A free version of Rack plugin would indeed be handy for those who dont want any pre-installed REs.
I guess RS tries the waters at this point...

[selig]

Is not a Reason Intro for $59 somwhat a kind of plugin entry level?
A free version of Rack plugin would indeed be handy for those who dont want any pre-installed REs.
I guess RS tries the waters at this point...

My case may be less common - some non-Reason using folks have requested my Leveler (and DeEsser) as VSTs so they can use them in their DAW of choice. One example; if they just want the Leveler, the cost just went up by 245%. It gets better if they also want the DeEsser or ColoringEQ, but you get the idea - you gotta pay to play!

[Yonatan]

Is not a Reason Intro for $59 somwhat a kind of plugin entry level?
A free version of Rack plugin would indeed be handy for those who dont want any pre-installed REs.
I guess RS tries the waters at this point...

My case may be less common - some non-Reason using folks have requested my Leveler (and DeEsser) as VSTs so they can use them in their DAW of choice. One example; if they just want the Leveler, the cost just went up by 245%. It gets better if they also want the DeEsser or ColoringEQ, but you get the idea - you gotta pay to play!

Yes, I can see the need for a completely non-pay-wall option. As of now, one has to have some kind of special interest in Reason per se to invest in this Rack plugin when part of a package.
Some, quite a lot I guess, might be just interested in very selective few devices in the RE shop.
But the obvious hope in the story would be that a free wrapper/rack would be in RS interest too as they get a cut of the cheese cake for every RE sold. Would be surpriced if it wont come at all at some point rather sooner than later.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Sorry to just comment here but I got to say I love the idea of the free Reason vst, completely empty. Just need to create an account at Reason studios and install codemeter and could start trialling (and buying) rack extensions. Brilliant!

[Loque]

Sorry to just comment here but I got to say I love the idea of the free Reason vst, completely empty. Just need to create an account at Reason studios and install codemeter and could start trialling (and buying) rack extensions. Brilliant!

Ok. i wouldnt comment here too, but i agree. A free, very limited version could get the guys into an account and than smell the free RE and than go beyond...

[JiggeryPokery]

As Reason fans we're used to the PropShop as it's been the only option for REs, so we naturally put up with opening Reason and suffering those bizarre 30 minute waits for it finish "syncing" licenses that haven't changed in months, or failing to connect because the PH server is down but blaming our Internet connections for the failure. (You've all seen it; it won't connect, you send an email to support via the internet, and you get an email back saying "check your Internet connection".)

For an outsider, compare PH Authoriser to say, Arturia's license manager.

Authoriser looks like a bloody spreadsheet. There's no style, no slickness.

Now, you can delete REs from Authoriser, and I'm well aware some competing licensing tools don't offer a full set of features either, but they all look fairly modern. Authoriser could have been updated to handle the download, at individual level to prevent resyncing stuff you don't want installed, but it should show you what REs you have licenses available for if not installed, it should be able to tell you what REs have updates and upgrades available, it needs to distinguish between trial and full licenses. This summer showed they couldn't even update a WordPress front page successfully, then had the chutzpah to tell you it was all working perfectly "in Chrome" (it wasn't of course).

If they'd spent less time trying to recreate other devs REs or filling in gaps in their quarterly revenue by pumping out headline REs, they'd have had plenty of time to focus on improving the Reason architecture, both sequencer, the GUI, the SDK, Authoriser over the past six years. They're doing the headline stuff, but consistently fail to do the leg work, to provide the backbone to support the big announcements. Because they prefer to spend the time between big Reason upgrades producing competing Rack Extensions rather than working on their infrastructure.

[boingy]

Sorry to just comment here but I got to say I love the idea of the free Reason vst, completely empty. Just need to create an account at Reason studios and install codemeter and could start trialling (and buying) rack extensions. Brilliant!

Ok. i wouldnt comment here too, but i agree. A free, very limited version could get the guys into an account and than smell the free RE and than go beyond...

So you get the free rack, create a free account, start a free 30 day trial of the REs you like. What do you think happens on day 31? Yep, delete the account, make a new one, get another 30 free days.