Do you have any fun or exciting ideas for the new Combinator?

[AnotherMathias]

A small worry that I have is that many of us will feel intimidated by the high expectations Combi 2 devices might have.

Hopefully people will still want to share their stuff, even though it might be simple and non-pro looking.

[joeyluck]

A small worry that I have is that many of us will feel intimidated by the high expectations Combi 2 devices might have.

Hopefully people will still want to share their stuff, even though it might be simple and non-pro looking.

It's funny, I was thinking a little bit about this in terms of GUI criticism. I would hope with all the criticism that RE devs and RS get about GUIs, that users can put forth an effort, be open to criticism, and ask for help

[EnochLight]

SKP has some ideas about this in the video below, although I hope he’s wrong about a lot of this stuff!

Honestly, the dude from SKP seems like a genuinely nice guy. I actually bought his "Granular Manoeuvres" back in the day (it was pretty much the last Refill that I ever bought). But I'm fairly confident that much of his perspective is due to the fact that his Rack Extensions are likely not selling nearly as well as they used to since Reason itself got VST support (correct me if I'm wrong, SKP). I also disagree that Combinator 2 offers the same functionality as the Gorilla IDT Rack Extension designer, and I also disagree that anyone gets "confused" when they open presets and are missing an RE. I mean, if anything that has to be a seriously small amount of users???

I do agree that keeping the Shop link at the bottom (and relatively hidden) is putting a massive nail in the RE Shop, though. Really wish RS would work out a way to restore that back to a more prominent position.

On an aside, I do hope he transitions into making some cool Combinators, though (I'm sure RS would pay him for some decent sound packs). Bitely as well. In fact, Bitely's content absolutely needs some custom Combinator 2 skins. He never did RE's, so maybe this is something he'll consider and start releasing some R+Companion packs. Unless there's some legal issues with re-packaging sample content from the Fairlight stuff? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[avasopht]

My exciting idea: multitimbral combinators where you specify your polyphony, and it will internally build up layers of your combinator and manage note allocation. This will save you from having to do it manually with Rack Extensions and players.

This will make combinators 1000x more powerful as it allows you to design combinators on a per-note basis.

Bonus points for having a basic mixer and master section for the combinator with racks applying to the master signal.

[nickb523]

Honestly, the dude from SKP seems like a genuinely nice guy. I actually bought his "Granular Manoeuvres" back in the day (it was pretty much the last Refill that I ever bought). But I'm fairly confident that much of his perspective is due to the fact that his Rack Extensions are likely not selling nearly as well as they used to since Reason itself got VST support (correct me if I'm wrong, SKP). I also disagree that Combinator 2 offers the same functionality as the Gorilla IDT Rack Extension designer, and I also disagree that anyone gets "confused" when they open presets and are missing an RE. I mean, if anything that has to be a seriously small amount of users???

I do agree that keeping the Shop link at the bottom (and relatively hidden) is putting a massive nail in the RE Shop, though. Really wish RS would work out a way to restore that back to a more prominent position.

On an aside, I do hope he transitions into making some cool Combinators, though (I'm sure RS would pay him for some decent sound packs). Bitely as well. In fact, Bitely's content absolutely needs some custom Combinator 2 skins. He never did RE's, so maybe this is something he'll consider and start releasing some R+Companion packs. Unless there's some legal issues with re-packaging sample content from the Fairlight stuff? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Couple of facts are missing here Enoch. The main one being that amongst the devs I have spoken to all are reporting around a 30% decline in sales since the shop was put in the footer, I'm not sure there is a single one of us that is either unaffected or seeing growth. The other is in regards to Gorilla - Gorilla is just a collection of modules and FX that are connected together in a creative way to build a RE. The modular nature of Reason along with Combinator V2 is a clear and distinct threat to these devices. As a quick example almost everything recent from EKSS could now be released as a Combi 2 patch with no loss in functionality, you could even add more features as within Reason itself there are more available sound sculpting tools than are contained within Gorilla Engine, and now with Combi 2 all of it can look great too.

I didn't even start releasing RE's until after VST were implemented. So I'd imagine sales used to be quite a bit better than I've ever even seen!

The whole Reason+ thing is based on seamless simplicity. You should see the guidelines we have to follow when making packs and patches - Everything needs to be super simple with no hidden surprises and accessible to everyone regardless of skill/knowledge level. RE's add a layer of confusion that I don't think is in the interests of that approach. Hell we don't really even need RE's in Reason+ at all - Notice Mimic is not a separate RE even though it is in fact a RE (I built a sound pack for it just fine in V11 back in July). I'd expect there will be more examples of this in the coming months as the platform is further refined and more users move over to what is eventually going to be the new normal.

This video was the first of just chatting style speculation videos that I go out and record when I'm on a break from SKP work in the afternoon. Some people will like it, some will hate it. It's just an idea for some fun and interesting content.

Cheers!

[joeyluck]

As a quick example almost everything recent from EKSS could now be released as a Combi 2 patch with no loss in functionality

Well without going into detail, those testing the new Combi (which is very exciting), will understand this to not be true. There are great benefits to both formats.

[EnochLight]

Couple of facts are missing here Enoch. The main one being that amongst the devs I have spoken to all are reporting around a 30% decline in sales since the shop was put in the footer, I'm not sure there is a single one of us that is either unaffected or seeing growth. The other is in regards to Gorilla - Gorilla is just a collection of modules and FX that are connected together in a creative way to build a RE. The modular nature of Reason along with Combinator V2 is a clear and distinct threat to these devices. As a quick example almost everything recent from EKSS could now be released as a Combi 2 patch with no loss in functionality, you could even add more features as within Reason itself there are more available sound sculpting tools than are contained within Gorilla Engine, and now with Combi 2 all of it can look great too.

I didn't even start releasing RE's until after VST were implemented. So I'd imagine sales used to be quite a bit better than I've ever even seen!

The whole Reason+ thing is based on seamless simplicity. You should see the guidelines we have to follow when making packs and patches - Everything needs to be super simple with no hidden surprises and accessible to everyone regardless of skill/knowledge level. RE's add a layer of confusion that I don't think is in the interests of that approach. Hell we don't really even need RE's in Reason+ at all - Notice Mimic is not a separate RE even though it is in fact a RE (I built a sound pack for it just fine in V11 back in July). I'd expect there will be more examples of this in the coming months as the platform is further refined and more users move over to what is eventually going to be the new normal.

This video was the first of just chatting style speculation videos that I go out and record when I'm on a break from SKP work in the afternoon. Some people will like it, some will hate it. It's just an idea for some fun and interesting content.

Cheers!

Thanks for chiming in, Nick! Really appreciate it (and all that you do)!

[EnochLight]

As a quick example almost everything recent from EKSS could now be released as a Combi 2 patch with no loss in functionality

Well without going into detail, those testing the new Combi (which is very exciting), will understand this to not be true. There are great benefits to both formats.

Where RE's will always shine is the ability to make Custom Displays that are interactive, along with a few other very important distinctions, for sure. You can't do any authentic analog modelling of specific gear in any Combinator without choosing from Reason's own options, after all. I do get what he's saying about Gorilla IDT, though.

[stratatonic]

A Softube Saturation Knob with a toggle switch that works. And make-up gain. Maybe a pre-gain.

[joeyluck]

Well without going into detail, those testing the new Combi (which is very exciting), will understand this to not be true. There are great benefits to both formats.

Where RE's will always shine is the ability to make Custom Displays that are interactive, along with a few other very important distinctions, for sure. You can't do any authentic analog modelling of specific gear in any Combinator without choosing from Reason's own options, after all. I do get what he's saying about Gorilla IDT, though.

I replied in that other place

[Steedus]

I haven't used this in the beta but I don't think the combinator 2 will take much away rom Rack Extensions like SKP says. As far as I'm aware the combi 2 is still just a container for existing devices - meaning it may be able to look like new fancy devices but inside it is still essentially just existing built in devices.

I would expect a rack extension to be more than just a container for existing effects/instruments etc just with the name crossed out and a new interface slapped on, is what I'm saying.

[Faastwalker]

Wonder if RS will do a Combinator 2 competition like they did (well, Propellerhead) when Combinator launched?

[MixerJaexx]

As a quick example almost everything recent from EKSS could now be released as a Combi 2 patch with no loss in functionality

Well without going into detail, those testing the new Combi (which is very exciting), will understand this to not be true.

So somebody’s absolutely wrong then. Those of us being patient and are waiting for Reason 12’s release are hearing people promising basically two different things.

I don’t understand how people so versed in Reason are getting things so different; is it like Nick B says (call it a “super Combinator”) or is it like Joey Luck’s saying (call it “updated Combinator”)? You’d think a developer like Nick B would know what they were talking about, yet Reason Studios’ Matthias did not talk about the Combinator in his blog post like NIck B describes it. Even the name “Combinator 2” sounds like updated Combinator.

People shouldn’t have been sharing, publicly, such controversial opinions in regards to beta testing the Combinator 2. But, cats outta’ the bag now. We don’t need NDA-breaking details, but I think it’d be nice is people weighed in on who’s right here; the “super Combinator” camp or the “updated Combinator” camp; can recent devices from EKSS actually be recreated in a Combinator 2 without loss of functionality?

[turn2on]

Combinator is a not real problem for any dev at all.

Make more flexible devices with C2 by using for example - ready RE, with few copies inside, to create something new, that was not possible before.
Real updates of REs is possible with fast tricks and deeper control if needed.
Use instruments in multilayers (various osc types) to build new one. You can build all this before. But without main Combi panel control.

C2 cant fight with RE market. This is still a Combinator (with more controls). Nothing more. Only customization.
And C2 idae realization is perfect.

At start can be a real Boom for users, they can start to imagine yourself as developer and designer of new devices. Its cool.
But Combi 2.0 cant beat using RE, creating new REs. I think that situation is not a problem, its a new comfort Combinator.

Gorilla is just a collection of modules and FX that are connected together in a creative way to build a RE. The modular nature of Reason along with Combinator V2 is a clear and distinct threat to these devices.

Gorilla not just a collection of modules. This is a scripting engine. Scripting is a more interesting part of it, not modules. Modules helps to make anything you need, to realize the idea. Scripting makes devices individual and unique. Modules can be used in creative way to realize very fundamental muic theory things in every new projects. So, modules as tools, works very deep (all you need music theory to know)

C2 not is a fighter to RE/GE. Its like a companion.

psss: Era of the Extenral Hardware control by CC is started. No more needs on paid unsdtable VST editors. (But sysex synth can't be controlled by CC)

[EdGrip]

It's not that RS need to "find a way" to put the shop link somewhere logical like a normal website; they clearly don't want to.

[Faastwalker]

Once it's launched, I was definitely thinking of creating a thread for VST Combinator conversions (not to be confused with the old thread which attempted to recreate VSTs using Combinators and built-in devices).

I was also curious if maybe the new Combinator will be worthy of its own forum But otherwise, it would continue to be a part of the "ReFills, Patches, and Sound Packs" forum.

Good idea I think. I was wondering about sharing Combinator patches as well. Be good to have a website for doing this. There was a website set-up by someone soon after the Combinator first launched. It was called Combinator HQ. You could upload patches and backgrounds to the site. Doesn't seem to be there anymore though. Could something like this be set-up on ReasonTalk maybe? Would good if RS had an official page for this. But doubt they would do something like this now.

[SebAudio]

Perhaps Combi2 will be used as alternative « skins » of already there devices ? At least for those devices which don’t use displays and have all of their UI controls as remote items

[Tiny Montgomery]

I haven't used this in the beta but I don't think the combinator 2 will take much away rom Rack Extensions like SKP says. As far as I'm aware the combi 2 is still just a container for existing devices - meaning it may be able to look like new fancy devices but inside it is still essentially just existing built in devices.

I would expect a rack extension to be more than just a container for existing effects/instruments etc just with the name crossed out and a new interface slapped on, is what I'm saying.

Yes I watched that video and thought same thing. A better combinator seems like a win/win for developers but I guess a developer would know more than me. I like SKPs videos though and I hope he continues, the patch creation ones are great and he's honest and interesting in his opinion pieces, even if he goes a bit Private Frazer in this one.

[ekss]

...the devs I have spoken to all are reporting around a 30% decline in sales since the shop was put in the footer, I'm not sure there is a single one of us that is either unaffected or seeing growth. The other is in regards to Gorilla - Gorilla is just a collection of modules and FX that are connected together in a creative way to build a RE. The modular nature of Reason along with Combinator V2 is a clear and distinct threat to these devices. As a quick example almost everything recent from EKSS could now be released as a Combi 2 patch with no loss in functionality, you could even add more features as within Reason itself there are more available sound sculpting tools than are contained within Gorilla Engine, and now with Combi 2 all of it can look great too.

Cheers!

I can't say I've seen any decline in sales, in fact, I think it's better and better. Sure, it has never been big bucks - but enough to keep me going on developing new REs, mostly because I want them in the rack myself. I guess, some of the most recent convolution based REs could be arranged in Combi2 - but not with the same level of detail and not with the same details of the GUI.
Not sure what I can say about combi2 but I don't see it as a threat, at all. More like an addition, simply an improved combinator. GE/IDT are still much more powerful.

That said, I'd sure like if RS promoted the shop more. And I would love if they made it cheap and easy for users of other DAWs to get in on using the Rack and REs.
I imagine a super cheap and light version of the rack (could even be empty and no cost). So all the people asking me "will you do a VST?" could instead get the RE and run it in RRP Lite (or RRP Free). RS gets a share for every sold RE so it puzzles me why they're not promoting the shop more, I mean make it accessible and easy to get into the rack-experience.

[SebAudio]

...the devs I have spoken to all are reporting around a 30% decline in sales since the shop was put in the footer, I'm not sure there is a single one of us that is either unaffected or seeing growth. The other is in regards to Gorilla - Gorilla is just a collection of modules and FX that are connected together in a creative way to build a RE. The modular nature of Reason along with Combinator V2 is a clear and distinct threat to these devices. As a quick example almost everything recent from EKSS could now be released as a Combi 2 patch with no loss in functionality, you could even add more features as within Reason itself there are more available sound sculpting tools than are contained within Gorilla Engine, and now with Combi 2 all of it can look great too.

Cheers!

I can't say I've seen any decline in sales, in fact, I think it's better and better. Sure, it has never been big bucks - but enough to keep me going on developing new REs, mostly because I want them in the rack myself. I guess, some of the most recent convolution based REs could be arranged in Combi2 - but not with the same level of detail and not with the same details of the GUI.
Not sure what I can say about combi2 but I don't see it as a threat, at all. More like an addition, simply an improved combinator. GE/IDT are still much more powerful.

That said, I'd sure like if RS promoted the shop more. And I would love if they made it cheap and easy for users of other DAWs to get in on using the Rack and REs.
I imagine a super cheap and light version of the rack (could even be empty and no cost). So all the people asking me "will you do a VST?" could instead get the RE and run it in RRP Lite (or RRP Free). RS gets a share for every sold RE so it puzzles me why they're not promoting the shop more, I mean make it accessible and easy to get into the rack-experience.

RRP free is a good idea, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s released in the futur. However REs are not transferable and this is a big minus compared to VSTs. And also, exposed parameters are just a mess with RRP compared to VSTs

[Faastwalker]

That said, I'd sure like if RS promoted the shop more. And I would love if they made it cheap and easy for users of other DAWs to get in on using the Rack and REs.

It seems ridiculous it’s still down the bottom in the page footer. Like, we know it’s there but still have to scroll down, down, down to get to it! I remember when + launched people questioned why it had been moved down there. At the time they said it was to give + some room to stand out. I’m pretty sure someone from RS also said it would move back to its normal place once the dust had settled (or words to that effect). Reason+ has been around a while now yet the Shop link is still buried down there!

[scotward57]

I remember years ago some guy on the old Phead user forum thread arguing for them to make it possible to lock the combinator so content producers could be incentivized to create more content. He was practically booed off the stage. And now all these years later, after the rise and fall of the Rack Extension era, here we are once again going down the same rabbit hole.

[avasopht]

I remember years ago some guy on the old Phead user forum thread arguing for them to make it possible to lock the combinator so content producers could be incentivized to create more content. He was practically booed off the stage. And now all these years later, after the rise and fall of the Rack Extension era, here we are once again going down the same rabbit hole.

It's not a rabbit hole.

Some libraries will never be made available on a format without what they consider to be adequate protection.

Providing that protection doesn't mean they are guaranteed to come. Reason has to be intrinsically attractive to them. But copy protection is a functional requirements for some creators.

[electrofux]

And also, exposed parameters are just a mess with RRP compared to VSTs

This!

[nickb523]

Just popping back in here to let you guys know that I have it on good authority that the shop is going back into a more prominent position on the main website. I don't know exactly when but it should be soon.