Offline authorization will be discontinued for R11 and earlier - This is serious

[joeyluck]

Just curious, if someone doesn't own an ignition key, why spend the money on that rather than spending about the same amount on the upgrade?

To safeguard your current licenses in a more robust form than the whims of Reason Studio's online server. To me, removing Codemeter is one step closer to them being able to go Reason+ only and as a customer you having zero recourse to use the product any other way than how they stipulate.

But you still rely on Codemeter working. I guess it just goes to show that the old authorization system, when support for it is gone, is subject to its own ticking time clock of hardware and software changes, and the necessity of not updating or migrating your computer.

And them selling Reason and Reason upgrades at what appears to be the lowest prices I've ever seen, is their strategy to push customers towards Reason+?

Like I said, we've lived through something like this before with a change to the authorization system. I remember all the similar things said when Reason was dongle/internet only. People were clutching their Reason 4 and 5 licenses vowing to never upgrade. They're here now.

[QVprod]

I think it's worth pointing out this:

• Owners of these Reason versions will be able to authorize Reason 1-11 by logging in online during usage, even after the discontinuation date

• The owners’ offline authorization will also keep working, but it will not have official support from Reason Studios, and any updates to the computer (such as OS updates) may result in the authorization ceasing to function

It might also be good to point out that it's nothing strange that software being updated sometimes lose backward compatibility like old OS versions or obsolete hardware.

I think this needs a highlight ^

[bernardh]

But you still rely on Codemeter working. I guess it just goes to show that the old authorization system, when support for it is gone, is subject to its own ticking time clock of hardware and software changes, and the necessity of not updating or migrating your computer.

Codemeter won't stop working. It's in use by loads of different applications the world over and is very well supported. What will stop working is the ability to get the licenses from Reason Studio's server later this year, hence the need for urgency to get your licenses saved down now before it's too late and you can never store them in that far more portable and robust format ever again.

If you get your licenses on an Ignition key, then you'll be good to keep running pre-12.6 versions of Reason on a new computer - just bring the USB key over to it and install the latest Codemeter support direct from Wibu. I can't see Reason 10 or Reason 11 stopping working anytime soon on Windows 10/11 or on Intel builds of macOS. Certainly it will still be working on them on September 26th - whereas on that date you'll have no choice but to use Reason Studio's servers every time you want to load an older version of Reason on a machine that wasn't previously authorised. That's a real forced downgrade for some of us and it's only 16 weeks away!

[Jagwah]

I don't use offline mode but really liked having the option but oh well, I do rely on reason for my music and as I understand it I can carry on logging in as usual, it's just that's the only way from now on. If this is all it is, why the push (strong recommendation) for people on lower versions to upgrade to the latest version?

In a nutshell RS is deprecating the wibu/codemeter/authorizer stack in September. Thus after that date Sync-All or offline-activation of a computer will most likely be removed from the website. The driving incentive behind this is the rollout of their own "offline" activation with Reason 12.6 and supposedly to not continue to pay for using the wibu tech any more.

On the plus side this step could allow for RS to finally introduce a free empty Reason Rack Plugin without costing them anything for the license management from a 3rd party.

Oh wow it's Sync-All also. I didn't see this earlier, but now the comment of Niklas makes sense. That's a shame but it's not too much of a problem and seems logical that to move forward they need to do things like this.

[bernardh]

That's a shame but it's not too much of a problem and seems logical that to move forward they need to do things like this.

It was likely it would happen someday but to only give existing Reason users, whom to some the existing Codemeter system is an absolutely integral part of their setup, a meagre 16 weeks notice of its deprecation is a very poor show.

[QVprod]

I like my current offline authorization. I think I'm just gonna stop buying anything for some time. I guess RS just made my GAS a lot easier. Thanks RS.
I feel like I'm being coerced into upgrading. Not into that. I'll make sure I buy any potential REs I want before this shift happens. And then I'm out.

Completely agree with this.

I think they're removing the Codemeter dependency far too soon and without enough warning. We're not even getting 6 months! They only just released 12.6 in May! Even Apple don't move this fast to deprecate stuff; they've had M1 for several years and yet currently still offer Rosetta, which of course will eventually be discontinued.

For those of us who like our perpetual offline authorisation on Reason 12.5 and earlier, it very much seems like this will be a permanent change freeze to our Reason and RE setups forever from September. I certainly will be unwilling to buy any more Rack Extensions if they can't be authorised into Codemeter and I have to online authorise every time. My main music computer only gets temporarily connected to the internet via a long ethernet cable to download new authorisations then sits offline the rest of the time so I can make music without distractions.

For those of us who have zero intention of being forced into this upgrade situation and don't want to have to bring our machines online to deal with a popup login box every time we start Reason, I recommend trying to get hold of a Codemeter USB dongle and getting all your licenses on it before September. Here's a couple of links I found. After looking into it, any CmDongle will work with Reason and will be detected by the Reason Studios website and the Authorizer app as an 'Ignition' key:

There’s some misconceptions here. As an aside that M1 macs are less than 3 years old, RS’ has been moving away from codemeter since 2021. Reason + users have been on a separate authorizing process. Only really new thing is it’s now offline.

Unlike the old codemeter login, there is no tick box to sign in every time. You could quite literally continue to use your computer in the way you describe here. Connect it when you need to update and unplug when you don’t. You only need to reach Reason’s servers once a year.

[bernardh]

Unlike the old codemeter login, there is no tick box to sign in every time. You could quite literally continue to use your computer in the way you describe here. Connect it when you need to update and unplug when you don’t. You only need to reach Reason’s servers once a year.

Only if I upgrade to Reason 12. For the older versions the login and authorisation process is being severely downgraded and with only 16 weeks notice provided by the company. You also become 100% dependent on Reason Studio's servers, so if they go down you can't use Reason. It's a single point of failure now for older customers. Also, if they decide that they only want Reason v12+ customers able to authenticate as part of a push to force us to upgrade, they will have the power to do this after September.

If they knew they were going to do this since Reason+ was released, they should have announced it a long time ago. This is a move which gives us as consumers less control over licenses we've paid for and puts us more in Reason Studio's back pocket. A wise financial move for them for sure but not great for us as customers.

[crimsonwarlock]

To me, removing Codemeter is one step closer to them being able to go Reason+ only...

I don't think it is legally possible to start charging a subscription fee for a perpetual license that you've already paid for. Even if you could no longer purchase perpetual licenses, they will be legally obligated to somehow make it possible for a perpetual license holder to run the software. Case in point, removing codemeter does not mean you can no longer use the software. The online authorization is factually the thing they need to do to ensure you can still use the software. Having said that, when there are new versions available, a software vendor can legally declare older versions "end of life" and stop supporting those versions in any way. Many (or even most) software companies do this, so the Reason Studio stance on this is actually better than most.

[bxbrkrz]

Unlike the old codemeter login, there is no tick box to sign in every time. You could quite literally continue to use your computer in the way you describe here. Connect it when you need to update and unplug when you don’t. You only need to reach Reason’s servers once a year.

Only if I upgrade to Reason 12. For the older versions the login and authorisation process is being severely downgraded and with only 16 weeks notice provided by the company. You also become 100% dependent on Reason Studio's servers, so if they go down you can't use Reason. It's a single point of failure now for older customers. Also, if they decide that they only want Reason v12+ customers able to authenticate as part of a push to force us to upgrade, they will have the power to do this after September.

If they knew they were going to do this since Reason+ was released, they should have announced it a long time ago. This is a move which gives us as consumers less control over licenses we've paid for and puts us more in Reason Studio's back pocket. A wise financial move for them for sure but not great for us as customers.

You are not alone thinking this, but it is not just for RS. When I launch Live there is no window nagging me to log in. Smooth operator. There is the option to go offline, but why bother? But if the Ableton server goes down, no access to my music. I am new to Live, so I don't know if that problem ever occurred in the past. And it is not just a technical problem. Just ask all those Adobe suite users from Venezuela when they were locked out from their accounts. No technical issues. Political.
You need to divorce yourself from the tools you are using, making sure there is a version of your art that can be opened all the time, on any DAW, on any OS, software or hardware, online or offline. Sharing your art is the final destination, not Reason, Live, Reaper, Yamaha or Roland, etc...

[bernardh]

I don't think it is legally possible to start charging a subscription fee for a perpetual license that you've already paid for. Even if you could no longer purchase perpetual licenses, they will be legally obligated to somehow make it possible for a perpetual license holder to run the software.

They aren't legally obliged to do anything with regards to accessing their services in future. You can get a refund if the product is defective under law but you can't demand they provide access in the future to something they currently do now.

They can do whatever they want: https://www.reasonstudios.com/agreements

They reserve the right to change their Terms of Use at any time.

[challism]

I don't think it is legally possible to start charging a subscription fee for a perpetual license that you've already paid for. Even if you could no longer purchase perpetual licenses, they will be legally obligated to somehow make it possible for a perpetual license holder to run the software.

They aren't legally obliged to do anything with regards to accessing their services in future. You can get a refund if the product is defective under law but you can't demand they provide access in the future to something they currently do now.

They can do whatever they want: https://www.reasonstudios.com/agreements

They reserve the right to change their Terms of Use at any time.

I'm not a lawyer so it's tough for me to speculate on their legal obligations. But they are bound by the consumer protection laws of the EU, which I understand to be pretty stringent. I don't know what all that entails, though.

[DaveyG]

They aren't legally obliged to do anything with regards to accessing their services in future. You can get a refund if the product is defective under law but you can't demand they provide access in the future to something they currently do now.

They can do whatever they want: https://www.reasonstudios.com/agreements

They reserve the right to change their Terms of Use at any time.

I'm not a lawyer so it's tough for me to speculate on their legal obligations. But they are bound by the consumer protection laws of the EU, which I understand to be pretty stringent. I don't know what all that entails, though.

It's really simple. They could easily decide to make R13 subscription only then a few months later give notice that the authorisation server for the "now obsolete versions" will be turned off in 12 months or so. I don't think they will do it but I don't think they would be breaking any laws. Even if it did break laws it would take the EU legal sloths years to decide what to do, by which time it would be irrelevant. Does anyone remember the Windows thing where Microsoft were forced to offer a version of Windows that did not include the media player? They charged the same price for it. Maybe someone actually bought it but I don't think it changed the world. Remember, none of us own any software. It is all just licenced to us and it sits behind pages and pages of weasel words, which none of us read but we agree to them anyway.

[Aosta]

Seems to me it is pretty much a forced upgrade
Pay up or die.

[crimsonwarlock]

They could easily decide to make R13 subscription only then a few months later give notice that the authorisation server for the "now obsolete versions" will be turned off in 12 months or so.

I'm not sure about that. There are many examples in the past that have similarities, where a company had to deliver some solution to run the software without authorization. Sometimes that meant an unrestricted version (not going to happen because they will still sell the subscription) or some patch that is linked to your license that you could install to unlock the software. The cases I remember where software DID stop working was when companies folded overnight. I don't see that happen to RS either.

[challism]

They could easily decide to make R13 subscription only then a few months later give notice that the authorisation server for the "now obsolete versions" will be turned off in 12 months or so.

I'm not sure about that. There are many examples in the past that have similarities, where a company had to deliver some solution to run the software without authorization. Sometimes that meant an unrestricted version (not going to happen because they will still sell the subscription) or some patch that is linked to your license that you could install to unlock the software. The cases I remember where software DID stop working was when companies folded overnight. I don't see that happen to RS either.

Let's hope it doesn't ever come to that.

If we are just going to speculate about the what ifs, we should also be worrying about EMP blasts and power outages/blackouts that would accompany a Mad Max world.

Let's not forget what recently happened with Waves when they tried to go subscription only. Forcing upgrades by dropping support for a version as recent as a few years old would certainly have a lot of backlash the company doesn't want to deal with. I would guess that Reason isn't a bigger company than Waves (total guess) and Waves couldn't pull off such a fete.

As I said, let's hope all this doomsday talk never comes to fruition and we never really have to find out how bad it can actually get. But for me, for now, this is not a huge problem and I don't think all this fear is the best way to spend our energy.

[bernardh]

Seems to me it is pretty much a forced upgrade
Pay up or die.

It feels opportunistic that they're using their deprecation of Codemeter technology as a way to try and force the customer to upgrade.

They've said no Reason 13 any time soon so I wouldn't be surprised if the next step will be that Reason updates will be made available for Reason+ customers only, perhaps from September 2024.

Then in 2025 the online authorisation system will probably become Reason+ only too because 'in order for us to make better products, we need to remove any reliance on legacy components that might otherwise hold us back'. Eventually none of these older versions of Reason 6 - 12 will be able to work any more at all, even online. An unnecessary Reason graveyard.

Meanwhile any old version of Reaper you can find that still runs on your OS will run forever on just a serial number and will never die.

I feel an itch to get Reason 5 up and running now...

[challism]

Seems to me it is pretty much a forced upgrade
Pay up or die.

It feels opportunistic that they're using their deprecation of Codemeter technology as a way to try and force the customer to upgrade.

They've said no Reason 13 any time soon so I wouldn't be surprised if the next step will be that Reason updates will be made available for Reason+ customers only, perhaps from September 2024.

Then in 2025 the online authorisation system will probably become Reason+ only too because 'in order for us to make better products, we need to remove any reliance on legacy components that might otherwise hold us back' meaning eventually none of these older versions of Reason 6 - 12 will be able to work any more at all, even online. A unnecessary Reason graveyard.

How is that different than them dropping perpetuals? The already said they aren't dropping perpetuals. And the customer base really wouldn't stand for a subscription only model. Reason isn't Adobe; not even close. Users would leave in droves and RS doesn't want that. Why would you assume they would pull such a move? You think they really want to cut their own throat?

All you really have is doomsday speculation. Total waste of time and energy. Do what you want, of course, and you are free to express your opinions, but you are basically just fearmongering at this point; it's totally baseless.

[bxbrkrz]

I'm not sure about that. There are many examples in the past that have similarities, where a company had to deliver some solution to run the software without authorization. Sometimes that meant an unrestricted version (not going to happen because they will still sell the subscription) or some patch that is linked to your license that you could install to unlock the software. The cases I remember where software DID stop working was when companies folded overnight. I don't see that happen to RS either.

Let's hope it doesn't ever come to that.

If we are just going to speculate about the what ifs, we should also be worrying about EMP blasts and power outages/blackouts that would accompany a Mad Max world.

Let's not forget what recently happened with Waves when they tried to go subscription only. Forcing upgrades by dropping support for a version as recent as a few years old would certainly have a lot of backlash the company doesn't want to deal with. I would guess that Reason isn't a bigger company than Waves (total guess) and Waves couldn't pull off such a fete.

As I said, let's hope all this doomsday talk never comes to fruition and we never really have to find out how bad it can actually get. But for me, for now, this is not a huge problem and I don't think all this fear is the best way to spend our energy.

Mad Max+ DAW Offline Edition

[bernardh]

All you really have is doomsday speculation. Total waste of time and energy. Do what you want, of course, and you are free to express your opinions, but you are basically just fearmongering at this point; it's totally baseless.

What they've just done with making perpetual offline authorisation a thing of the past, and temporary offline authorisation for 12 months something that is unavailable to all but Reason 12 and Reason+ users going forward, that's the kind of thing if you'd said last year they'd be doing this year, it could easily have been accused of baseless fear-mongering. But it's now reality.

I really hope I'm wrong but I just don't trust in a model where I'm at the absolute mercy of the vendor whether I can still load my old product on my old machine any time I want. I don't trust that power imbalance not to turn aggressively coercive eventually, in the name of company profit Maybe next year, maybe 10 years; but eventually I'm convinced it will happen and technological 'progress' will be used as the justification.

[arnigretar]

The company is focusing their strength on Reason 12 and are leaving behind an old offline authorization. If you want to use their old products (Reason 11, 10, or whatever) you can still do so. But not offline. It's just how it is I love reading the rants however. Like Reason Studios are the evil. Haha. Move on with the times. That's how most people do and companies that survive. It's how it is always. They also gave you guys a good buffer.

Admittedely I'm one of those people who can be unreasonably resistent to change, at least when it comes to technology. If something is already working fine for me I tend to not want to change anything. This is the same regardless if it's about updating my computer, my phone, Reason or whatever. It's just how I am.
I'll "get with the times" eventually. Give me some time. At the moment there's simply not enough reasons for me to upgrade. But I'm sure that whenever something new drops in the Reason world that I find irresistable I'll upgrade and get back on the train again. It's just very unlikely that'll be during this R12 period.
In the meantime, there's plenty of stuff in my Reason rack I can revisit and dive into. And holding off on purchases for a while will save me some money too.

I understand we can't all be the same - so that's understandable. And your viewpoint in general isn't a problem either. But being able to use Reason with internet connection for the old versions will have to do The world is connected to the internet - so just keep your computer online. But in the end because of the internet it will surely all end like Terminator in the future. But that's another rant and another story lol.

[crimsonwarlock]

I'm not sure about that. There are many examples in the past that have similarities, where a company had to deliver some solution to run the software without authorization. Sometimes that meant an unrestricted version (not going to happen because they will still sell the subscription) or some patch that is linked to your license that you could install to unlock the software. The cases I remember where software DID stop working was when companies folded overnight. I don't see that happen to RS either.

Let's hope it doesn't ever come to that.

If we are just going to speculate about the what ifs, we should also be worrying about EMP blasts and power outages/blackouts that would accompany a Mad Max world.

Agreed. I'm just replying to the doomsday prophets here. I'm not worried because it is not something to worry about. It will roll the way it will roll

[bernardh]

Let's hope it doesn't ever come to that.

If we are just going to speculate about the what ifs, we should also be worrying about EMP blasts and power outages/blackouts that would accompany a Mad Max world.

Agreed. I'm just replying to the doomsday prophets here. I'm not worried because it is not something to worry about. It will roll the way it will roll

I'll come back in the years to come and find this thread

[joeyluck]

Agreed. I'm just replying to the doomsday prophets here. I'm not worried because it is not something to worry about. It will roll the way it will roll

I'll come back in the years to come and find this thread

Hopefully it'll still be here, since the forum relies on the Internet and Kenni keeping the server going.

[bernardh]

I'll come back in the years to come and find this thread

Hopefully it'll still be here, since the forum relies on the Internet and Kenni keeping the server going.

Don't get clever with me Joey. Websites have been online since the 90s, that's how they work. Local computer applications which cannot function indefinitely without an internet connection for copy-protection, that's a much newer thing and one which I don't understand why anyone would champion, as it isn't a good thing for consumer freedom. Digital Rights Management is not your friend. You'll be telling me next you think Sony BMG were right to lace those 22 million CDs with DRM copy protection rootkits back in the day!

If you want to do some research on why this stuff matters, read these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defective_by_Design
https://www.fsf.org/givingguide/v13/

[joeyluck]

I should've added the tongue emoji