Protools goes back to perpetual licences

[crimsonwarlock]

Adobe is subscription-only, but they are squarely aimed at the professional market, where they are the industry standard. Protools went the same route, as they were the industry standard as well, and that worked for a while. Until they found out that the democratization of the music industry passed them by and serious competition in their space came about (mainly Studio One and Reaper). Now they have to compete in a market where monthly payments are a big issue for many users. Waves thought (mistakenly) that they were the industry standard in their space, and found out they aren't. Their quick reversal, within days, can only be seen as damage control, while the damage was already done. My bet is that UAD going native has a lot to do with this as well. All these companies had, or thought they had, monopolies, but not anymore. In that light, going subscription-only is not a test, it is utter stupidity and shows a misunderstanding of current market dynamics. And as Avasopht states, this has happened many times in history.

Adobe shows you can go subscription-only IF you have the monopoly in your space. The reversal of Protools, shows that when you lose that monopoly, subscription-only is no longer viable. Reason Studios never had any monopoly in their space to begin with, and again, competition has grown fierce over the last decades. My bet is that they are very aware of this, and not only want, but NEED to keep perpetual licenses available.

Or they are going to make the same stupid mistake.

[RobC]

The user base for ProTools (high-end multitrack audio recording, audio post-production) is much different than the user base for Reason (hobbyists and bedroom "producers")

[DaveyG]

I think it's a crazy business decision to go subscription only for software. It's more usual to offer subs alongside perpetual, the challenge being to encourage perpetuals to move onto the sub without them feeling like they are being encouraged to move onto the sub. You also have to be careful to not treat perpetuals like second-class citizens.

[selig]

Well I for one am happy to see any subscription model failing, especially in the DAW world. Any sign of the subscription trend breaking is great news in my eyes. I've had enough of hearing "It's just where things are going" like we should just accept things getting shitty.
Even though I'm not a Pro Tools user, things like this and the Waves Audio fiasco sends a signal to other companies that most people won't play the subscription game.

I view this is as victory. I'm celebrating tonight!

Is the subscription model failing? Are they removing subscriptions? As others have said, it’s the “subscription ONLY” model that’s failing. It may be more accurate to say the “perpetual license” model is alive and kicking.

I don’t know if “most people won’t play the subscription game”, but it’s clear that for many it’s a preferred model (mostly those just starting out with a company/DAW). For those of us already living in the ecosystem it makes less sense IMO.

If it’s a victory, it’s for the “pro perpetual” not the “anti subscription” audience, since no company I’m aware of who as added subscriptions has gone back and removed the option entirely. THAT would be a victory for the ‘anti subscription’ crowd!

[TritoneAddiction]

Well I for one am happy to see any subscription model failing, especially in the DAW world. Any sign of the subscription trend breaking is great news in my eyes. I've had enough of hearing "It's just where things are going" like we should just accept things getting shitty.
Even though I'm not a Pro Tools user, things like this and the Waves Audio fiasco sends a signal to other companies that most people won't play the subscription game.

I view this is as victory. I'm celebrating tonight!

Is the subscription model failing? Are they removing subscriptions? As others have said, it’s the “subscription ONLY” model that’s failing. It may be more accurate to say the “perpetual license” model is alive and kicking.

I don’t know if “most people won’t play the subscription game”, but it’s clear that for many it’s a preferred model (mostly those just starting out with a company/DAW). For those of us already living in the ecosystem it makes less sense IMO.

If it’s a victory, it’s for the “pro perpetual” not the “anti subscription” audience, since no company I’m aware of who as added subscriptions has gone back and removed the option entirely. THAT would be a victory for the ‘anti subscription’ crowd!

Sure. There's nuance to the subject.
Sorry I'm just not in the mood for a back and forth discussion on the topic. Usually I'm pretty open to looking at things from different perspectives. But when it comes to the idea of subscriptions I just hate it. Sorry. If I could, I would like to go back to a time before the subscription trend became a thing and have it not exist at all. But I know that's not happening anytime soon.
Anyway I'm out. I'll go make some music. You guys carry on discussing.

[DaveyG]

Anyway I'm out. I'll go make some music.

Looking forward to listening to the resulting song.
Style: Hardcore Punk
Maximum length: 2 minutes
Minimum verses: 3
The lyrics should include "SUBSCRIPTION" and "F**K YOU!" and lots of shouting. Actually, that could be all the lyrics you need.

[joeyluck]

Anyway I'm out. I'll go make some music.

Looking forward to listening to the resulting song.
Style: Hardcore Punk
Maximum length: 2 minutes
Minimum verses: 3
The lyrics should include "SUBSCRIPTION" and "F**K YOU!" and lots of shouting. Actually, that could be all the lyrics you need.

And after the song...
"Don't forget to like my video and hit that subscribe button."

[TritoneAddiction]

Anyway I'm out. I'll go make some music.

Looking forward to listening to the resulting song.
Style: Hardcore Punk
Maximum length: 2 minutes
Minimum verses: 3
The lyrics should include "SUBSCRIPTION" and "F**K YOU!" and lots of shouting. Actually, that could be all the lyrics you need.

Good idea. I'll give you credit for the lyrics.

[selig]

Is the subscription model failing? Are they removing subscriptions? As others have said, it’s the “subscription ONLY” model that’s failing. It may be more accurate to say the “perpetual license” model is alive and kicking.

I don’t know if “most people won’t play the subscription game”, but it’s clear that for many it’s a preferred model (mostly those just starting out with a company/DAW). For those of us already living in the ecosystem it makes less sense IMO.

If it’s a victory, it’s for the “pro perpetual” not the “anti subscription” audience, since no company I’m aware of who as added subscriptions has gone back and removed the option entirely. THAT would be a victory for the ‘anti subscription’ crowd!

Sure. There's nuance to the subject.
Sorry I'm just not in the mood for a back and forth discussion on the topic. Usually I'm pretty open to looking at things from different perspectives. But when it comes to the idea of subscriptions I just hate it. Sorry. If I could, I would like to go back to a time before the subscription trend became a thing and have it not exist at all. But I know that's not happening anytime soon.
Anyway I'm out. I'll go make some music. You guys carry on discussing.

No problem, will carry on…
I’m saying the opposite, not making a nuanced comment on the original. I don’t see the evidence for subscriptions failing.

I don’t like subscriptions either, because I already own the product and it makes no sense for me. But for those just getting into the Reason ecosystem it could be quite attractive.

For example, us long time Reason users have been updating every few years now, plus adding REs of our choosing. So possibly spending a couple hundred every few years after our initial investment. Compare this with paying likely twice as much for the subscription model. It’s no wonder us long time users don’t find subscriptions attractive.

Reason Plus includes the latest version of Reason and all REs to date, which if you were just starting down this path would cost $600 for the main app and around $1800 (if my rough calculations are correct) for all additional paid REs. All at a cost of $200/year if you pre pay. So that means it would take at least 10 years of paying $200/year to get close to the same up front costs of a perpetual license. But in that time there will also be at least 3-4 updates and at least the same number of paid REs introduced, which adds another $1000 or so (4x $200 updates, plus 3-4 REs at $60-100 each). Meaning unless my math is way off, as a new user it is cheaper in the long run to subscribe than to pay outright. Not to mention, you can pause your subscription any time you many not need it for a few months at a time, and you don’t have to come up with $600+ just to get started with everything Reason offers. And don’t forget the sound packs, which have different levels of attraction/value for different users.

If my math is off, please correct me. I have no horse in this race, my goal is only to explore the differences between a new user and a long time user, cost wise.

[crimsonwarlock]

If my math is off, please correct me.

I don't think your math is off, but you forget one rather important thing in this whole assessment: the moment you can't pay the subscription fee, you are left with nothing, no matter how much you have paid thus far.

[joeyluck]

If my math is off, please correct me.

I don't think your math is off, but you forget one rather important thing in this whole assessment: the moment you can't pay the subscription fee, you are left with nothing, no matter how much you have paid thus far.

I think a subscription to one piece of software, such as just a DAW, is understandably a hard sell.

But a subscription to a continually growing suite of software—that makes sense for a lot of people.

Yes, when you stop subscribing, you lose access. But aside from some companies offering points towards products and free plugins after a year of subscribing, the benefit to subscribing is that you can pick up at any point and be completely up to date without shelling out a ton of money for the latest version and all the new plugins.

[crimsonwarlock]

the benefit to subscribing is that you can pick up at any point and be completely up to date without shelling out a ton of money for the latest version and all the new plugins.

But only if you have the money to “pick it up” again.

The benefit of perpetual is that you can buy stuff when you have money, and it is yours to make music with it, even when money is tight. I want to be able to make music when I like, not when “money allows me to”. This is what still baffles me about going subscription: you either think you'll never run out of money, or you don't care if you can't make music for a while. Sure, there are people who will never run out of money, but I'm not that lucky. And of course, there are people who won't mind not being able to make music for a while, but I'm not in that club either.

Subscriptions only make sense if you have a steady income, and even that doesn't have the same meaning as it used to have. My guess is that this might even be a part of the Protools decision to go back to perpetual licenses. Commercial studios used to make enough money (steady income) to pay for subscriptions, but that landscape has changed drastically, and now most commercial studios are in survival mode. Subscriptions means if no money, no access to your tools, and no access means no way to cater for clients, which means no money… it's a downward spiral.

[joeyluck]

the benefit to subscribing is that you can pick up at any point and be completely up to date without shelling out a ton of money for the latest version and all the new plugins.

But only if you have the money to “pick it up” again.

The benefit of perpetual is that you can buy stuff when you have money, and it is yours to make music with it, even when money is tight. I want to be able to make music when I like, not when “money allows me to”. This is what still baffles me about going subscription: you either think you'll never run out of money, or you don't care if you can't make music for a while. Sure, there are people who will never run out of money, but I'm not that lucky. And of course, there are people who won't mind not being able to make music for a while, but I'm not in that club either.

Subscriptions only make sense if you have a steady income, and even that doesn't have the same meaning as it used to have. My guess is that this might even be a part of the Protools decision to go back to perpetual licenses. Commercial studios used to make enough money (steady income) to pay for subscriptions, but that landscape has changed drastically, and now most commercial studios are in survival mode. Subscriptions means if no money, no access to your tools, and no access means no way to cater for clients, which means no money… it's a downward spiral.

Well like I said, the value is with a suite of software and always having the latest and complete library of plugins. If someone is short on money and only buying perpetual, they won't have that either...and if they fall behind on buying plugins, they will never have that.

[crimsonwarlock]

You keep avoiding the point I'm making here.

Well like I said, the value is with a suite of software and always having the latest and complete library of plugins.

But only if you keep paying.

If someone is short on money and only buying perpetual, they won't have that either...and if they fall behind on buying plugins, they will never have that.

But they can still use the software they have, which isn't the case with subscriptions.

Seems to me, this isn't hard to grasp, so I'm leaving it at that.

[joeyluck]

You can't have all the software without buying all of it constantly. You can use it however you want. For instance, you can buy any DAW and subscribe to plugins. You can use several different DAWs. You can have different subscriptions and switch it up from time to time, canceling some while subscribing to others. Especially with all the GAS, people aren't using a majority of the plugins they own.

[PhillipOrdonez]

The real question here is, does anyone even need all the res and the latest version? Cause the assumption is that you do, when comparing the cost of buying upfront vs subscribing. I'd argue that it is still too expensive.

This comparison also falls to account for when the cost of subscribing surpasses the cost of upfront purchasing the things you like and need after a certain point in time.

Sub to own I can get behind. Sub just got the sake of subbing only make other offerings much more appealing in an economic sense (logic and fl come to mind). ‍♂️

[QVprod]

I think this should calm the Reason going subscription only fears. And to think this move was made AFTER Avid got acquired by a private equity firm. That might kill another years old RS theory.

I do think subscriptions can be useful for some people. Especially those as Selig and Joey pointed out, aren’t already invested in their own system. Perhaps they’re just starting out. Sure you lose access if you can’t pay, but I think it’s common for people (those who would subscribe) to have stable income to cover those expenses so it’s kind of a non issue.

But as long as there those of us around who are use to owning things, it will always need to be optional.

[selig]

If my math is off, please correct me.

I don't think your math is off, but you forget one rather important thing in this whole assessment: the moment you can't pay the subscription fee, you are left with nothing, no matter how much you have paid thus far.

Fair point, and if that’s the only negative I’d say it’s still a win for many new comers with little disposable income. But similar things happen when you stop paying any regular bills so I wouldn’t imagine anyone would be caught totally by surprise here. What if you don’t pay your car loan/lease and they take your car back no matter how much you have paid thus far.
I recently lost access to my otherwise 100% functional Presonus Central Station because the external power supply died (and they no longer support that power supply). Shit happens…

Anther angle: if you can’t afford the full price you never get to the point where you could loose anything, since you don’t have anything. So someone without the means to afford the perpetual license would at least have some music made in the same time frame. Similar argument for when something goes on sale and you paid full price - but you had the use of the software during that time while those who waited for the sale did not.

So either you save up and pay the full price for the “security” (as much as anything is “secure”) of not loosing access, or pay a lot less and compromise on said security. There are pros and cons with any system.

[dakta]

I'm pro subscription for the good old reason that a month is about the price of 4-6 large costa coffees, and so it's actually one of the expenses I can allow for even on a tight month because compared to other bills it's a neither here nor there expense - paying it won't save or forfeit the house (if it does we've bigger problems ha), so even someone like me who took the subs on a bit of a floating basis i've never actually been without it.

If I'd saved for it in a perpetual sense I'd probably be a few years on and still not have it, particularly if I wanted access to the devices I currently use regularly.

It's a weird concept and I totally get why people would want to own the software outright but even a perpetual license i just terms and conditions of a right to use software (albeit perpetually), you've never owned it and never will. RS allowing both is probably as good as it gets (as well as the fact the monthly price isn't an arm and a leg, one hours music lesson here is about the same and even thats not really a lot).

[avasopht]

The Reason shop already had rent to own mechanisms, ... I feel they're missing some easy money by not offering a permanent license for Reason after a year of subscriptions (not including R+ only rack extensions)

[joeyluck]

The Reason shop already had rent to own mechanisms, ... I feel they're missing some easy money by not offering a permanent license for Reason after a year of subscriptions (not including R+ only rack extensions)

Yeah I think it would be great if they offered rewards points for subscribing and also offered the Reason upgrade in the rewards shop.

Their neighbor, Kilohearts offers a $100 voucher after 1 year of subscribing. They should take a page out of their book.

[RobC]

Will there be a light version again? I'd try it then.

[Popey]

The Reason shop already had rent to own mechanisms, ... I feel they're missing some easy money by not offering a permanent license for Reason after a year of subscriptions (not including R+ only rack extensions)

Pretty sure it is cheaper for a years r+ than to buy reason Standalone (starting from scratch and not upgrading). Especially when they have fairly frequent deals on r+.

Your idea is good though if you got a perpetual licence after a few years subscription or if at the end of each year you got a certain percentage off the cost of either reason daw or reason daw upgrade (if you own a older version).

[dakta]

I think that'd be a cool idea, after 3 years of subscription maybe get the offer of buy a perpetual license, keep the reason studios extras or something along those lines

there has to be some meet halfway from our side - i.e you would need a few years of subs under your belt to make it worth it for the reason studios because the one things a subscription will do that a perpetual license never will is give a stable income for the business. Yes its a smaller one but it's steady and that counts for a lot

[RobC]

Will there be a light version again? I'd try it then.

Good news everyone, there is a free version! Protools Intro. I'll give it a shot sometime ~

https://www.avid.com/pro-tools/intro