Propellerhead's priorities

[antic604]

I think this is the big problem here. So many people never use the competition and have never used Reason with a hi-dpi screen. They are completely ignorant of how behind Reason is. I get it if you say 'It is all I need'. That's brilliant for you, but even if it is 'all you need', you should still be concerned for how stagnated Reason is because the more users that leave, the weaker the company becomes and the less sure the future is. I used to meet people reasonably regularly who used Reason, but that doesn't happen anymore. People are using other DAWs now.

This anecdotal stuff just whiffs of personal response to me.

But "people are using Reason" would also be anecdotal, wouldn't it?

[madmacman]

I get it if you say 'It is all I need'. That's brilliant for you, but even if it is 'all you need', you should still be concerned for how stagnated Reason is because the more users that leave, the weaker the company becomes and the less sure the future is.

What's the difference between jumping off *now* and jumping off when Propellerheads really are in trouble / down the drain / whatever? Even by today's consideration the future is uncertain. Same is true for Ableton, Bitwig, and so on...

[Zac]

This anecdotal stuff just whiffs of personal response to me.

But "people are using Reason" would also be anecdotal, wouldn't it?

Sure, of course. I just take people's stories of other users choices with a pinch of salt.

[antic604]

What's the difference between jumping off *now* and jumping off when Propellerheads really are in trouble / down the drain / whatever? Even by today's consideration the future is uncertain. Same is true for Ableton, Bitwig, and so on...

Reason is unique in this regard, because of the Rack Extensions environment. For any other DAW I don't care (much) about its future, because I'll lose only the software - all of my plugins, sound packs, etc. will stay and can be used elsewhere. With Reason you're locking yourself in, therefore some kind of assurance about its future is an important factor when considering it as a new user or deciding to move on elsewhere as an existing user.

Also the track record of implemented features is important - for example Bitwig has MPE, plugin sandboxing, bit-bridging and VST3 support, innovative modulation system, best in class touch interface support, 4K screens support. Out of those Reason only has modulation system, which - while as powerful functionally - is much more complex to set up and manage, especially with larger projects. Instead of catching up - or setting - the market trends, it was adding new instruments and (slowly...) catching up to other DAWs - players, VST2, features in 10.2 have been there for years elsewhere.

Obviously, where one puts the money is a matter of perspective:
- one may not buy any REs or ReFills and use native devices & VSTs only,
- one may say Reason 10 is all he'll ever need and doesn't have to be on the bleeding edge of technology, just like many people fully realise themselves artistically with a piano or acoustic guitar, even if we now have synthesizers and electric guitars,

However, considering that new generation of producers are socially conditioned to "always upgrade" (phone, laptop, most of the software, even flat they rent, etc.) no wonder that many would choose the open environment, that seems to be more dynamic and forward-looking.

My 0.02$ anyway

[madmacman]

[...]
My 0.02$ anyway

No, you are abolutely right. Point taken.

[EnochLight]

What's the difference between jumping off *now* and jumping off when Propellerheads really are in trouble / down the drain / whatever? Even by today's consideration the future is uncertain. Same is true for Ableton, Bitwig, and so on...

Reason is unique in this regard, because of the Rack Extensions environment. For any other DAW I don't care (much) about its future, because I'll lose only the software - all of my plugins, sound packs, etc. will stay and can be used elsewhere. With Reason you're locking yourself in, therefore some kind of assurance about its future is an important factor when considering it as a new user or deciding to move on elsewhere as an existing user.

Having been around these parts for the better part of 20 years - since ReBirth 1.0 - I can assure you...

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I've been reading the same thing for almost 2 decades (and yes, I realize the fear has gotten more intense - and rightfully so - since RE's appeared 6+ years ago). While my experience is as anecdotal as anyone else's, I see no reason to begin worrying. Now if version 11 comes out and no progress is made into these long standing complaints, then maybe we can begin to worry, but I'm willing to wager it won't be until version 12 that many of these are addressed.

That's of course, if they are still around.

[antic604]

I've been reading the same thing for almost 2 decades (and yes, I realize the fear has gotten more intense - and rightfully so - since RE's appeared 6+ years ago). While my experience is as anecdotal as anyone else's, I see no reason to begin worrying. Now if version 11 comes out and no progress is made into these long standing complaints, then maybe we can begin to worry, but I'm willing to wager it won't be until version 12 that many of these are addressed.

That's of course, if they are still around.

I'm not saying I KNOW Props are going under.

I'm saying I DON'T KNOW what their objectives are and therefore if I'm interested in investing in their environment any further

Read this for example. On the surface it's a positive news because they mention "company's expansion in several areas around the core product Reason, the app store-model Rack Extensions and the mobile music-making platform". But I've worked long enough in corporations to know to read between the lines (or read very literally). What if the long-term plan is to milk the current Reason software and its RE ecosystem in more or less unchanged form with constant sales, cross-sales, discounts and surface-level upgrades (Europa, Grain & 3xROMplers, "free" Drum Sequencer, opening the Players SDK and adding sockets, "new" features in 10.2, etc.) to actually finance the development of their mobile branch, with the end goal of axing the PC/OSX software altogether once the mobile platform is ready to take over? This might be a great plan for Verdane and Props, but not necessarily for me personally.

Some might say that adding VST support, two (great!) new synths and the 10.2 workflow updates shows their dedication to the platform and that Props' devs worked their asses of to make those! What if VST support is actually a quickly cobbled together RE that communicates with hidden 3rd party VST wrapper via ReWire protocol? That would explain why you can't use both at the same time, the 64-samples buffer that causes problems for many VSTs or the general subpar performance resulting from extra processing overhead. What if Europa & Grain were commissioned to be developed by some talented 3rd party developer, who probably got more for their "anonymous" work than what they'd earn doing it on their own, while for Props it was also cheaper (and/or allowed to move the devs to the mobile branch)? I already commented elsewhere on what I feel about 10.2 features, especially how easy to implement they seem and my interaction with the beta only confirms this: they're great to have, but still a surface-level scripting of user actions without deeper changes to underlying mechanisms... (I won't go further due to NDA). When I compare this to how extensively Bitwig had to dig into the code for their last two point updates introducing extended device views, voice stacking, new audio stretching and MIDI channel support; then it's night and day in terms of commitment to "core" the product.

Sounds like a conspiracy theory? Maybe. Or maybe not. "Just saying"™

[EnochLight]

Sounds like a conspiracy theory? Maybe. Or maybe not. "Just saying"™

I wouldn't call it a conspiracy theory, but if it makes you feel any better - much of that is patently false, thankfully. I won't go further due to NDA as well.

But I agree, no one really knows the long-term plan/goals, other than to remain a profitable company. All we can do is hope for the best, keep sharing our criticism/suggestions in a constructive and respectful manner, and maybe Reason will someday turn into that DAW that some always hoped it would be.

[QVprod]

Sounds like a conspiracy theory? Maybe. Or maybe not. "Just saying"™

I think you're putting wayyy too much thought into this. First off, the idea that a company would axe off desktop software with a large active user base to focus on mobile is silly. That would be a horrible business move right now. iOS devices have gotten powerful but they're not THAT powerful. People here have claimed dsp issues now with quad core i7s, imagine an iPhone . Secondly, I doubt the mobile music market is making as much as the desktop market (individually) at this point. When Cubasis outsells Cubase, then there might be a different conversation.

Lastly

I'm saying I DON'T KNOW what their objectives are and therefore if I'm interested in investing in their environment any further

No offense to you in particular but I see this said so many times... Stop thinking about your purchases as investing in the company. That's an entirely different concept. Verdane is an investor, customers are not. Buying Reason, RE, or any other software is an investment in yourself, especially if you intend to make any money using the software. Far less aggravating when you think about it that way. Should the tool (Reason) ever stop working and stop being supported, you replace it with something else and keep moving. Even if you have bought a lot of RE, yes it would suck, but there's so many quality free and cheap VST out now that you can replace most RE aside from the CV stuff for pretty much no cost.

Besides Sonar got revived (Cakewalk by Bandlab) when Gibson discontinued it. I'm pretty sure than if Propellerhead ever folded, someone would purchase the rights to Reason.

[mcatalao]

Just to give some background, "putting more people on it" doesn't always work. For example, our mobile team is completely separate from Reason R&D — mobile development is different from Reason development so there's very little overlap in people. Additionally, the way we need to adress performance issues require a small team with a specific skill set due to it all being connected under the hood and touching the same part of the codes. Adding extra people to that work actually wouldn't speed it up, it's inefficient and risky.

Because of this, we prefer to release the other things we've got brewing as free updates as we believe they're still useful and appreciated by Reason users.

Hope that gave you some background info!

Great answer. From someone that works in Software and products for clients more than 15 years ago (on different business areas) i can understand that this is more a cirurgical job than a question of manpower. It's a question of the right profiles.

Fun thing, in one of the Steering Commitee of a project we have, i was the Project Manager and we had the client's product manager that was a lady. At some point they asked us to paralelize a bunch of tasks to what i said "Well, you can paralelize to a certain point but there's a limit! You can't have 9 pregnant woman and expect a baby in one month... ". The lady started laughing out loud and said "I know that... Unfortunately i'm 4 months due and i could use the help!"...

[antic604]

I think you're putting wayyy too much thought into this. First off, the idea that a company would axe off desktop software with a large active user base to focus on mobile is silly. That would be a horrible business move right now. iOS devices have gotten powerful but they're not THAT powerful. People here have claimed dsp issues now with quad core i7s, imagine an iPhone . Secondly, I doubt the mobile music market is making as much as the desktop market (individually) at this point. When Cubasis outsells Cubase, then there might be a different conversation.

I never said they'd drop it now and/or abruptly - I mean that it would happen sometime in the not-so-distant future and that it would be gradual: they'd simply stop developing it or fed the user-base with 10.2-like updates: nice to have, but far from groundbreaking

No offense to you in particular but I see this said so many times... Stop thinking about your purchases as investing in the company. That's an entirely different concept. Verdane is an investor, customers are not. Buying Reason, RE, or any other software is an investment in yourself, especially if you intend to make any money using the software. Far less aggravating when you think about it that way.

Obviously I'm not investing in the company (although I am, indirectly), but it's human nature if you buy something to try to optimise what you get for the money, right? Like when I'm buying a car I'll definitely look at fuel economy, service costs, potential re-sale value and take those into account in addition to how it looks, how fast or how comfortable it is, etc. Same with software - if two applications do more or less the same, I'll choose one which makes more sense economically now and in the future.

[QVprod]

I never said they'd drop it now and/or abruptly - I mean that it would happen sometime in the not-so-distant future and that it would be gradual: they'd simply stop developing it or fed the user-base with 10.2-like updates: nice to have, but far from groundbreaking

If that ever happened, it'd be because mobile has caught up to (and probably replaced) computers, in which case, I don't see how that would be a problem. Otherwise it wouldn't make any business sense to discontinue flagship software for an inferior product.

Obviously I'm not investing in the company (although I am, indirectly), but it's human nature if you buy something to try to optimise what you get for the money, right? Like when I'm buying a car I'll definitely look at fuel economy, service costs, potential re-sale value and take those into account in addition to how it looks, how fast or how comfortable it is, etc. Same with software - if two applications do more or less the same, I'll choose one which makes more sense economically now and in the future.

No, not even indirectly investing. You're buying a product that you feel has value to you. Checking out the product to make sure it meets your requirements is not the same as trying to have insight into the company's direction. To use your car example; if you're buying a Toyota (or whatever popular brand is in your country) you're not concerned about what other cars that manufacturer is gong to sell the following year. You're interested in whether the current car you're looking at fits your needs. You don't for instance become concerned about the future of the Sienna (Reason) because they put out a new Camry (Reason compact).

***Note that comparing 2 different products from 2 different companies is a different subject to your concerns about Propellerhead's future.

[antic604]

If that ever happened, it'd be because mobile has caught up to (and probably replaced) computers, in which case, I don't see how that would be a problem. Otherwise it wouldn't make any business sense to discontinue flagship software for an inferior product.

There are two issues with the above:
1) You're mistaking a business plan/strategy with what will actually happen - it doesn't matter if mobile catches up (and replaces) computers, what matters is that their strategy might be focused on that assumption and might be wrong on many levels: technology, timing, etc.; I might not want to support such "risky" endavour,
2) Even if mobile does take over it doesn't mean I will like it and will convert to it; I might see them pursuing such goal as wasting their time & my money to do something I don't care about

No, not even indirectly investing.

When I'm buying something the seller incurs a profit margin which typically goes towards cumulating capital for further investments and expansion of the company. By choosing specific product out of many similar products I'm supporting growth of the company, its vision and goals hoping that future products (or upgrades, when we talk about DAWs) will be even better. Sure, it's not as direct with cars, because I'm not buying VW Touran now to get better VW Toureg in 3-4 years. It's enough that it does what I want here & now. But with software this is exactly what's happening - I'm buying current set of features and an expectation that I've bet on the right horse (developer) that will further deliver new features I care about - that's why I'm personally interested in their plans, vision and strategy.

So yeah, I'm not investing in a sense of buying stock and hoping it goes up, but I am investing in a sense that I hope my money will go towards a company that will develop their product that's increasingly more useful to me with every iteration.

At least that's my approach and YMMV

[QVprod]

If that ever happened, it'd be because mobile has caught up to (and probably replaced) computers, in which case, I don't see how that would be a problem. Otherwise it wouldn't make any business sense to discontinue flagship software for an inferior product.

There are two issues with the above:
1) You're mistaking a business plan/strategy with what will actually happen - it doesn't matter if mobile catches up (and replaces) computers, what matters is that their strategy might be focused on that assumption and might be wrong on many levels: technology, timing, etc.; I might not want to support such "risky" endavour,
2) Even if mobile does take over it doesn't mean I will like it and will convert to it; I might see them pursuing such goal as wasting their time & my money to do something I don't care about

If mobile were to take over, every company would move to mobile. You wouldn’t have much of a choice. It’s like Power PC vs Intel Mac. You want the latest software, you have to have a compatible machine. Regardless though, mobile is too far off from competing with workstations for that to be a concern. I don’t believe anyone is dumb enough to replace their flagship product with an inferior one and I’d take Reason Compact as a pretty clear sign of their mobile intentions.

When I'm buying something the seller incurs a profit margin which typically goes towards cumulating capital for further investments and expansion of the company. By choosing specific product out of many similar products I'm supporting growth of the company, its vision and goals hoping that future products (or upgrades, when we talk about DAWs) will be even better. I'm buying current set of features and an expectation that I've bet on the right horse (developer) that will further deliver new features I care about - that's why I'm personally interested in their plans, vision and strategy.

I see supporting and and investing as two entirely different things. With that, I see where our philosophies differ. You buy software with the hope that it adds features you want in the future. I buy a product because I like it as is. I buy upgrades if they add more value to what’s already there. If not, the current version I own will continue to do what I bought it to do. I hold no personal loyalty to any company I that I don’t have a direct relationship with. While I happen to like Propellerhead, I buy the product because it’s good, not because they make it.

[EnochLight]

I see where our philosophies differ. You buy software with the hope that it adds features you want in the future. I buy a product because I like it as is. I buy upgrades if they add more value to what’s already there. If not, the current version I own will continue to do what I bought it to do.

My philosophy tends to be that of QVprod as well. I think this may be why I come off the way I do to some of the more vocal critics.

[antic604]

If mobile were to take over, every company would move to mobile. You wouldn’t have much of a choice. It’s like Power PC vs Intel Mac.

And this is where we differ as well - I would have a choice, because music is just one of my hobbies; I don't have to do it if process of its creation wasn't to my liking

[MattiasHG]

What if VST support is actually a quickly cobbled together RE that communicates with hidden 3rd party VST wrapper via ReWire protocol?

What if Europa & Grain were commissioned to be developed by some talented 3rd party developer, who probably got more for their "anonymous" work than what they'd earn doing it on their own, while for Props it was also cheaper (and/or allowed to move the devs to the mobile branch)?

I already commented elsewhere on what I feel about 10.2 features, especially how easy to implement they seem and my interaction with the beta only confirms this: they're great to have, but still a surface-level scripting of user actions without deeper changes to underlying mechanisms... (I won't go further due to NDA).

All of these things are wrong.

VST support was not quickly cobbled together, it has nothing to do with REs, ReWire or a wrapper. Europa & Grain were developed by Peter Jubel, co-founder and DSP guru of Propellerhead, managed by me and designed by our in-house design team. 10.2 features are not "surface-level scripting", whatever that means, it's normal application development. If you personally want big underlying changes to how Reason works, that's one thing, but don't say that these features are super easy to implement and insinuate they're not "real coding".

That's all, feel free to put your tin-foil hats back on now people!

[deepndark]

[antic604]

All of these things are wrong.

VST support was not quickly cobbled together, it has nothing to do with REs, ReWire or a wrapper. Europa & Grain were developed by Peter Jubel, co-founder and DSP guru of Propellerhead, managed by me and designed by our in-house design team. 10.2 features are not "surface-level scripting", whatever that means, it's normal application development. If you personally want big underlying changes to how Reason works, that's one thing, but don't say that these features are super easy to implement and insinuate they're not "real coding".

That's all, feel free to put your tin-foil hats back on now people!

@Mattias, thanks for feedback!

And please don't take this the wrong way - it's just a possible scenario that I've described based on what we know & don't know If all of that is false, then I'm excited about future of Propellerhead and going RE shopping before the End of Summer Sale ends for good this time

Having said that, you ignored the part about "milking the current Reason software in more or less unchanged form to finance the development of mobile platform" so that's intriguing... j/k

[MattiasHG]

Having said that, you ignored the part about "milking the current Reason software in more or less unchanged form to finance the development of mobile platform" so that's intriguing... j/k

[antic604]

Having said that, you ignored the part about "milking the current Reason software in more or less unchanged form to finance the development of mobile platform" so that's intriguing... j/k

Ok, I'll shut up now

[EnochLight]

Having said that, you ignored the part about "milking the current Reason software in more or less unchanged form to finance the development of mobile platform" so that's intriguing... j/k

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[chimp_spanner]

Mobile is *potentially* exciting but it's nowhere near ready to take over from desktop. Certainly I've invested a LOT of time and money into the iOS platform thinking I could write music on my couch and...I got nothing. I keep hitting the same snags; lack of a proper file system or network access, intermediary apps to do the most basic tasks resulting in countless redundant/duplicate files, poor standardisation and implementation of different technologies, overly complex/clunky workflow if you wanna do anything more than a musical "doodle". 99% of the time I just give up and go to my laptop and fire up R10!

Still, this is where I think there's reason to be excited about RC because it *should* bridge the gap between mobile and desktop, as Reason will open Compact files and you can basically carry on where you left off. I haven't tested that part of it yet but I'm sure when there's a drum module and extra tracks/parts it'll be great.

Anyway this is just a long winded way of saying the chances of big-boy Reason ever being ditched for mobile are basically zero. Yeah it's an exciting new market but even some of the most respected and prolific app developers will tell you music apps make up a very, very small part of iTunes sales. Obviously big companies with clout (like Korg, PH, Steinberg) will do better but iOS music makers are still a minority group as far as iPad and iPhone users go. Which is precisely why we probably won't ever get the changes we need to do serious work on the damn things. So yeah if PH can nail that middle ground between fun and serious music making then I'll be happy! The best apps I've used are the ones that KNOW what they are, and don't try and do too much. Those are the apps that actually end up being a part of my workflow alongside my main setup.

[deepndark]

By the way, a tin foil hat doesn't help, because the tin-foil needs to cover your whole body, only then it works. LOL

[EnochLight]

Anyway this is just a long winded way of saying the chances of big-boy Reason ever being ditched for mobile are basically zero.

I have to agree. Much larger companies with much larger budgets have been at the mobile DAW+companion app for years (Korg, Steinberg, etc), and their offerings are nowhere near what anyone would consider a fully-fledged mobile DAW experience that can replace your desktop studio (or laptop), and they certainly are not planning to abandon their core products.

My thoughts? Mobile apps (read: cellphone, and iPads by extension) will always be great companion devices to help you create/capture on the go. Transfer ideas to your full-DAW for final polish. I doubt the mobile app-store model could ever sustain a company as far as music creation-only is concerned - the market's just way too niche. It's not like Steinberg, Korg, or Propellerhead will score a hit like Rovio (Angry Birds ) for music creation and suddenly have billions of downloads (and in-app purchases). That's just grossly unrealistic and out of touch with the reality of the market.

I'm glad Props have decided to add a companion app to Reason for mobile/cell. This should have happened years ago, sure - but here it is, NOW. So let's hope they make it the best it can be.