What's happened to us (/them)? ... (10 years after discovering RE trademark and patent)

[bxbrkrz]

You can be lost in making music for a while, so you can have a sharper focused mind, letting you see through the fog of the shitstorm better, instead of forgetting it all, when you look outside again.

That say, that's also true for a company making interesting decisions throughout its existence

Looking back in a shitstorm situation, any decision may seem interesting. Though in fact it is not.

In a shitstorm situation the decision of looking for a free wifi connection for R+ may seem interesting. Though in fact it is not.

[orthodox]

Looking back in a shitstorm situation, any decision may seem interesting. Though in fact it is not.

In a shitstorm situation the decision of looking for a free wifi connection for R+ may seem interesting. Though in fact it is not.

I hope they will address the problem and enable offline authorization for R+. It's in their roadmap.

[avasopht]

I hope they will address the problem and enable offline authorization for R+. It's in their roadmap.

I'm pretty sure they will.

Most of the issues I see people having are stuff that's in development (because it's not production-complete and is effectively a pre-release).

As far as I'm concerned, January 2022 is the real release date I'm considering this to be the beta

I do wonder if they will add iLok support now that Ignition is no longer being manufactured. I doubt it, but with iLok I can authorize my machine or an iLok device (and it's for many other plugins).

That being said, I've not had my Ignition plugged in for months (nor have I even activated this machine). Since it saves my password, it just means I have to click an extra button when opening Reason.

[Benedict]

It's interesting how the more advanced and complete Reason becomes, the more people are dissatisfied with it and threaten to leave the DAW for something else.

Perhaps that really is: the more that Reason becomes closer to other DAWs, the more people demand that it be The Same as their Fantasy League DAW.

While Reason was an island, people did batch (and quite nastily too) but there was less of a direct comparison between Reason and other trad DAWs like Reaper etc. Also, the freedom with which people leap to selfish thinking = fact = what everyone needs seems to have increased over that time.

R12 and perhaps R+ has not been the nicest/smoothest but RS is also a company going through changes. This is inevitable for a company that grows, esp when they transition from an "island" model to a competing "equal" (or me too) model as seems to be happening right now.

We can't change a lot of that, all we can do is be positive about what we do have - which honestly is far better for what most of us want here. If not, there are a wealth of DAWs that probably do it how you want. All the negativity is not helping anyone at all. It might just drag down the whole ship. I'd hate to see that happen.

[avasopht]

We can't change a lot of that, all we can do is be positive about what we do have - which honestly is far better for what most of us want here. If not, there are a wealth of DAWs that probably do it how you want. All the negativity is not helping anyone at all. It might just drag down the whole ship. I'd hate to see that happen.

This thread isn't about "reason doesn't have all teh featurez". There are other threads about that.

Toxic positivity does nobody any good.

This thread isn't even bashing RS.

It is first and foremost a question. What has happened? What has changed?

It comes from a place of concern.

Look, if you want to ignore any fault about Reason - great for you.

However, if I were to recommend R12 to my friends and they experienced any of the negative experiences others have had due to this not being a production-ready release with serious UX failings, RS would have lost a potential customer who would go on to think Reason is a buggy and incomplete bit of software.

RS staff have said in this forum that it's not a complete release that was published early to share. They've admitted this.

There are, however, threads from people who did not know this expressing their view that it seems like it's not a complete release.

That means that it not being in a production-ready state is visible to users.

Refusing to acknowledge any fault leads to toxic positivity which is not positive at all. It's how people bury their heads in the sand while their village sets ablaze.

If there's a fire in your house, you don't just continue staring blissfully out the window and ignore it because the house burning down is not positive.

The same thing applies here.

There are issues. There's nothing bright about living in a constant state of denial.

Even RS aren't doing that. They've also stated that this was not ready.

Again, this thread was started out of concern, but also because I noticed it's 10 years since we discovered the trademark and I found it interesting to compare the differences in sentiments.

I doubt RS staff would look at this thread and feel like it's bringing them down. They are aware of the state of R12, which is why they have a roadmap to complete it.

I also started another thread to show appreciation to RS staff for this R12 release. So would it really be correct to make out this is all just negativity.

[dvdrtldg]

Refusing to acknowledge any fault leads to toxic positivity which is not positive at all. It's how people bury their heads in the sand while their village sets ablaze.

If there's a fire in your house, you don't just continue staring blissfully out the window and ignore it because the house burning down is not positive.

The same thing applies here.

Do you think you could ratchet up the hysteria a bit more? I feel like we've almost achieved Peak Drama but we're not quite there yet. I've got some nice Holocaust comparisons you can use if you like

[tronam]

Do you think you could ratchet up the hysteria a bit more? I feel like we've almost achieved Peak Drama but we're not quite there yet. I've got some nice Holocaust comparisons you can use if you like

No proper Reason thread would be complete without some handwringing melodrama and a future shadowed in ominous foreboding.

[avasopht]

Do you think you could ratchet up the hysteria a bit more? I feel like we've almost achieved Peak Drama but we're not quite there yet. I've got some nice Holocaust comparisons you can use if you like

Hysteria is a narrative that you've made up.

The peak drama you speak about is all in your head.

And it's quite clear that you are trying to spark drama from your needlessly antagonistic responses and intellectually dishonest mischaracterization.

Very childish.

[moneykube]

Do you think you could ratchet up the hysteria a bit more? I feel like we've almost achieved Peak Drama but we're not quite there yet. I've got some nice Holocaust comparisons you can use if you like

My 2 cents without using holocaust examples ( it was and is extremely bad form, to connect holocaust imagery to this bro> what were you thinking?)
I knew there would be problems with this release... therefore I decided not to upgrade until, what are usually "small" bugs get ironed out... this seems different to me then past upgrades... way too many problems , yet they sell an unfinished product promising to fix it one day, To release something stated as finished, get peoples money, then back petal saying it is unfinished when they knew it was indeed not finished >saving their asses by this loophole placed within the terms of agreement ( I mentioned this in an earlier upgrade with the problems that came with it, but everyone wrote it off as standard terms >>> um...this does not seem standard to me)... This seems like fraud to me. They not only implied and expressed it was finished> they raved it was finished and superbly awesome. When does an expression and implication cross over to become a blatant lie? Where is the line? What is the goal post? It is nothing but a money grab with no guarantees or timeline for a fix( game plan yes> but a game plan without actions means absolutely nothing) > then they entice you with a small discount for the opportunity of using the buggy software that may or may not be fixed because the price is going up ... Wow... How does one now believe anything they say? I stopped believing their promises years ago.
12. NO WARRANTY
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[bxbrkrz]

In a shitstorm situation the decision of looking for a free wifi connection for R+ may seem interesting. Though in fact it is not.

I hope they will address the problem and enable offline authorization for R+. It's in their roadmap.

Let us hope together.

[dvdrtldg]

Do you think you could ratchet up the hysteria a bit more? I feel like we've almost achieved Peak Drama but we're not quite there yet. I've got some nice Holocaust comparisons you can use if you like

My 2 cents without using holocaust examples ( it was and is extremely bad form, to connect holocaust imagery to this bro> what were you thinking?)

I'm not "connecting Holocaust imagery to this", I'm making a sarcastic reference to the ridiculous degree of grievance and claims of personal victimhood that have been spewing out on these forums for nearly a month now. Villages burning down, "outrage" and "fear" and "despair" and all the rest of it. Thread after thread after thread. My point is, get some perspective. Stop whining. Grow up

[challism]

RS have clearly stated that this was released before it was ready for release. That alone is a massive difference.

This detail was not disclosed until after the fact.

That is significant. That is something that has changed dramatically.

There are a number of people on this forum who cannot use the application. Others are experiencing serious performance issues. A bug has completely nixed SF2 support. There are serious rendering glitches and visibly unfinished UI elements.

This is not production-ready software (something they've openly admitted)

That's not to say that it's all bad, or that it won't be great when complete ...

... but to make out that the only thing that has changed is people's attitudes completely ignores all the things that have happened.

I don't deny that Reason 12 was rushed to market and was a huge blunder on the part of RS. The way they released R+ was similarly flawed. I'm not saying RS haven't made mistakes. Perhaps I did a bad job expressing my thoughts; RS have definitely dropped the ball. Is that really anything new, though? They have blundered their way thru many things and made many questionable decision in the past. So my point is not to dismiss RS, but to look at humankind and the state of world, as a whole. Because something bigger than RS has changed, including us. RS would be part of the bigger "US" in that picture.

That say, that's also true for a company making interesting decisions throughout its existence

I totally agree about RS making interesting (I would call them bad) decisions. I would go on to say that them making bad decisions isn't really anything new.

[bxbrkrz]

RS have clearly stated that this was released before it was ready for release. That alone is a massive difference.

This detail was not disclosed until after the fact.

That is significant. That is something that has changed dramatically.

There are a number of people on this forum who cannot use the application. Others are experiencing serious performance issues. A bug has completely nixed SF2 support. There are serious rendering glitches and visibly unfinished UI elements.

This is not production-ready software (something they've openly admitted)

That's not to say that it's all bad, or that it won't be great when complete ...

... but to make out that the only thing that has changed is people's attitudes completely ignores all the things that have happened.

I don't deny that Reason 12 was rushed to market and was a huge blunder on the part of RS. The way they released R+ was similarly flawed. I'm not saying RS haven't made mistakes. Perhaps I did a bad job expressing my thoughts; RS have definitely dropped the ball. Is that really anything new, though? They have blundered their way thru many things and made many questionable decision in the past. So my point is not to dismiss RS, but to look at humankind and the state of world, as a whole. Because something bigger than RS has changed, including us. RS would be part of the bigger "US" in that picture.

That say, that's also true for a company making interesting decisions throughout its existence

I totally agree about RS making interesting (I would call them bad) decisions. I would go on to say that them making bad decisions isn't really anything new.

I agree. 112%

[avasopht]

... RS have definitely dropped the ball. Is that really anything new, though? ...

Yes. This is unprecedented.

Granted there are two new things:
1. GPU accelerated UI (using what seems to be a home-baked "engine")
2. Switch to a more agile development workflow

Three if you want to count leadership.

There's a thread where I compare Reason's productivity (in terms of sizeable features) to Bitwig, and in my assessment I found RS to be on par with Bitwig (while also having a massive headstart in some areas).

So while there are complaints that they're not moving quickly enough, I think it only appears that way because:
1. Some of their development work is not included in the DAW anymore
2. Some of the developments are so seamless, it's easy to forget the feature wasn't always there. We've got the Audio Pitch Editor, Recycle integration, kick-ass timestretch, ReGroove, Blocks, comps (and before many other DAWs), Rack Extensions (which has compatibility for developers to import their Kontakt libraries and the Gorilla Engine), a highly integrated plugin licensing and installation system, and Players

These features are so seamless that it can seem as if Reason has fewer features than it does.

But this time around however they have made a notable blunder. Nothing on this scale has happened before stability wise. And the parts of the GUI that haven't been updated just look plain wrong.

R6 was the last time I was eager to upgrade. Every other upgrade since I've usually gone weeks or months before installing the new version - and mostly because I just didn't need to (because I'd still be using the same ReFills and rack devices). I didn't even use the VSTs I'd purchased in Reason until a good year or so after.

So my critique isn't even just about features.

My criticism is about two things:
1. Conduct (which seems to be improving if they maintain their transparency)
2. The botched release

The botched release was a massive blunder because the only thing they did wrong was not being upfront before running their R12 and R+ promos.

I think R+ is a step in the right direction. But I'm on the fence about subscribing to it because the first rollout of R12 that was imposed on R+ subscribers would have left me with a much less usable DAW and no clear way to revert back to an earlier version I didn't already have a license for. I'm still deciding between R+ and R11 Suite.

But to just lump this up with every other not-so-good decision detracts from how poor this release was executed. It was noticeably incomplete. That's a big no-no for DAWs and not in any way comparable to previous decisions.

[Tiny Montgomery]

Have to say I strongly agree with challism and dvdrtldg. Without wanting to put words in their mouth I think what they are getting at is the 'tone' of the discussion rather than an attempt to belittle or dismiss people's genuine concerns, which of course the board should be a venue for. I can be a bit salty on occasion but some of the wailing & gnashing of teeth on the boards is a bit off the scale sometimes imvho.

[selig]

It's interesting how the more advanced and complete Reason becomes, the more people are dissatisfied with it and threaten to leave the DAW for something else.

Yes, it's interesting but it's not conclusive on any level: "correlation does not imply causation"

[avasopht]

Have to say I strongly agree with challism and dvdrtldg. Without wanting to put words in their mouth I think what they are getting at is the 'tone' of the discussion rather than an attempt to belittle or dismiss people's genuine concerns, which of course the board should be a venue for. I can be a bit salty on occasion but some of the wailing & gnashing of teeth on the boards is a bit off the scale sometimes imvho.

But that would be belittling and dismissing genuine concerns - especially in this thread where dvdrtldg has chosen to be antagonistic and falsely depict my posts as being hysterical (which is abusive behaviour).

There are genuine concerns. Some people are not even able to run R12.

It's intellectually dishonest to claim that not being able to even run R12 is not a genuine concern (or breaking a feature by accident). Or the fact that RS knowingly released a product that was not production-ready while only admitting it was not ready for release a week later (after a lot of people have already forked out). You're seeing memory leaks and all the other quirks you can expect from a product before it's reached a production-ready state.

Silencing any justified criticism of RS' decisions does nobody any favours, nor does seeing everything in black and white where everything is either all good or all bad.

Things can have a combination of good and bad qualities.

If you disagree and genuinely believe nothing has changed in the last 10 years, or that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the R12 release or any of the things brought up in this thread, that's fine. I can respect your different opinion of things.

I'm looking forward to R12 when it's production-ready. I'm in no hurry. It took me a few months to install R10 (just because nothing was wrong with R9.5 and I was only going to be using the same old ReFills).

I also like what they did with their hi-res support. It's easy to forget that this was all baked into the foundation of REs 10 years ago such that they all automatically become high-res devices. I also expect some of the issues or confusion people have had to be resolved by Jan/Feb (such as wondering why devices aren't high res, or some things seem more blurry). It looks quite gorgeous on my screen as well (and was the only application I was waiting for HD support before upgrading my screen).

But that doesn't mean there weren't any critical errors in how they launched it.

[plaamook]

I'm looking forward to R12 when it's production-ready.

Quite.
I bought the upgrade after all but I’m not going near that frigger till the irons made at least one decent pass.

And as you say, this is unprecedented.
I’ve bought every upgrade since 3.5 when I got involved and I’ve never seen such mayhem that I’m just staying clear of it.

[plaamook]

Have to say I strongly agree with challism and dvdrtldg. Without wanting to put words in their mouth I think what they are getting at is the 'tone' of the discussion rather than an attempt to belittle or dismiss people's genuine concerns, which of course the board should be a venue for. I can be a bit salty on occasion but some of the wailing & gnashing of teeth on the boards is a bit off the scale sometimes imvho.

Honestly I don’t get the venom people spit on the internet in general and I’m crap at reading the correct inflection into peoples post often but things here are outta the ball park at present for obvs reasons. And they are obvious. Some people deal w that in a more relaxed fashion than others.
This thread is comparatively relaxed.
I don’t see criticising the outrage as dismissing the issues at hand though. Any more than I see the criticisms and outrage as venomous.
People actually feel like that. This is a forum. This is where people do this kinda thing it seems.

[dvdrtldg]

dvdrtldg has chosen to be antagonistic and falsely depict my posts as being hysterical (which is abusive behaviour)

Calling your posts hysterical is not a "false depiction", it's an opinion

Calling my expression of opinion "abusive behaviour" is exactly what I'm on about. You seem to need to dial up the grievance to 11 at every opportunity

So I'll stop giving you opportunities. Apologies to anyone on this thread who's found this exchange unpleasant & boring

[avasopht]

Honestly I don’t get the venom people spit on the internet in general and I’m crap at reading the correct inflection into peoples post often but things here are outta the ball park at present for obvs reasons. And they are obvious. Some people deal w that in a more relaxed fashion than others.
This thread is comparatively relaxed.
I don’t see criticising the outrage as dismissing the issues at hand though. Any more than I see the criticisms and outrage as venomous.
People actually feel like that. This is a forum. This is where people do this kinda thing it seems.

I agree. There is a lot of unnecessary outrage.

At the same time, there are individual complaints or issues that shouldn't be conflated with outrage. That's where it can seem dismissive.

And I've been on the other end of that as well. I didn't feel like I was dismissing their issues, but R12 is blurry on their GPU and needed to know whether this would get resolved before paying for an upgrade and whether it was even going to be addressed.

[Creativemind]

They were introduced in 2012 (I know this because they were introduced in the first version of Reason I bought in September 2012, 6.5 which came out 3 or 4 months before) so they haven't been around 10 years till about June next year.

[plaamook]

I think the whole thing is made worse by this constant uncertainty with Reason where many people are wondering what it’s future is.
Do the Logic, Live, etc users wonder if their work environment is gonna fold soon? That they may be wasting money and time by investing further?
I’m not sure where I’m at with that but the recent events are sure to inflame that sentiment. The past few releases have had people scratching their heads more and more (not me, 10 had Grain which changed everything for ol plaamook) it seems and R12 R+ etc makes Props seem less together than ever combined with a road map that’s uplifting and a new business model.
It’s all very confusing.
Hopefully we’ll see some clarity arise out of all this.
Maybe the outraged will find some peace!

[avasopht]

They were introduced in 2012 (I know this because they were introduced in the first version of Reason I bought in September 2012, 6.5 which came out 3 or 4 months before) so they haven't been around 10 years till about June next year.

Yes, but we noticed the trademark before it was announced, and someone peeked in the 6.0 beta executable and noticed they'd left a clue in there by accident.

[jam-s]

It is first and foremost a question. What has happened? What has changed?

Verdane Capital took over.