Mix Not Translating to Car, Help Please!

[skie]

I'm really frustrated now with a few mixes I'm working on. They are NOT translating well in my Jetta. They both feature a Rhodes and 808 drums and electric bass. I use Yamaha HS80m's, Sony MDR7506 headphones, and cheap earbuds as my main monitoring rig. Everything sounds great on my monitors and speakers but in my car (Stock VW Jetta sound system with EQ set to Flat), the lower-mids are going crazy, total ruining the clarity and definition of my bell-like rhodes. This weird part is the muddyness is barely audible on my Yamaha monitors and cans. Even on my bookshelf Sony speakers you can't really tell.

I noticed this a few days ago and have since messed with all the room-correction settings on the monitors, listened in other rooms, etc etc...Radio and CDs sound nice and tight and clear in my car, as do many of my other mixes, so it's not the car speakers. I'm getting very frustrated trying to triangulate my way toward getting a good mix in my car. The lower-mid and bass response in my car is just so unpredictable compared to my Yamahas HS80m and Sony cans. Anybody have any advice?? Thank you!

[selig]

Take those mixes that sound great in the car and listen closely to how they sound in your room. Try to determine what's different about those two environments. Obviously you need to deal with the excessive lower mids that you're hearing in the car, which indicates your monitors/room are lacking in lower-mids. Also, take a look at any EQ you may be using and see what's happening in that same frequency range. If possible try to identify which octave is the most problematic for you in this situation.

One very basic way to do this is to take a synth patch that's basically a static level (no velocity/filter/etc) sine wave, and play it from low to high gradually increasing pitch. Listen for any level jumps up/down and note the frequency/pitch that you hear. It's not a perfect system to analyze your room, but it may help identify any of the more obvious problem areas in your listening environment. Note: you can also try this in your car by recording the sine experiment and playing it in your car!

Good luck and let us know if you make any progress or not.

[skie]

Thank you Selig I will definitely try that. I have used the good-sounding ones as references and they definitely have more clarity in the upper-mids overall but I can't figure out the low-end riddle yet. I did discover the other day that the low shelf on the MClass EQ on my master buss drastically affects the car mix. So I'm very cautious of that. Def will try to sine wave test!

For anyone interested here's one of the mixes I'm talking about - - I didn't consider the mixed finished when I posted it, just wanted to hear it in my car again. It goes intro/chorus/verse...I've made decent progress on the verse (which starts at 50 seconds) - intro and chorus are the main problem now. I know I need more high-end clarity, and the sample itself is too lower-mid-y but it's really going bonkers in my car. My partner and I created the sample and probably didn't mix it good enough before we bounced it, then maybe put too many effects on it.

[skie]

I would love to know if anybody who plays the above track on their rig can hear an untamed low-end/muddy lower mids, and if so, what speakers/monitors are you using?

[pushedbutton]

Yeah it sounds kinda boomy.
This might be worth a watch...

[skie]

^thanks for the tip. I saw this one. I hi-passed the bass at 60 hz maybe i need to roll off some on top of that.

[QVprod]

Are you referencing your CD's through your monitors? You only mentioned your CD's in relation to your car. Knowing what your CD's sound like in your room and matching your mix quality to that is essential to getting your mixes to translate.

Also you're Mixing 808's Rhodes and Bass which is by definition gonna give you a lot of low mid muddiness. Make sure you're hi-passing the rhodes and making sure the bass and 808's aren't clashing. Sidechain compression on the bass (from the 808s) might be an option.

There's also the option of simply using EQ on the master insert to remove the mud and add some high end. Just don't overdo it on the boosts and cuts.

[skie]

Are you referencing your CD's through your monitors? You only mentioned your CD's in relation to your car. Knowing what your CD's sound like in your room and matching your mix quality to that is essential to getting your mixes to translate.

Also you're Mixing 808's Rhodes and Bass which is by definition gonna give you a lot of low mid muddiness. Make sure you're hi-passing the rhodes and making sure the bass and 808's aren't clashing. Sidechain compression on the bass (from the 808s) might be an option.

There's also the option of simply using EQ on the master insert to remove the mud and add some high end. Just don't overdo it on the boosts and cuts.

Thanks I think I may have to go back and re-mix the original sample, bounce and slice in Recycle again (BTW, I wish you could simply substitute the new audio into a pre-chopped Rex file instead of having to re-chop it every time - such a pain!!)

Is this a common problem I'm having? The whole "If it sounds good on monitors it sounds good everywhere" thing is bass-ackwards to me right now.

[selig]

Are you referencing your CD's through your monitors? You only mentioned your CD's in relation to your car. Knowing what your CD's sound like in your room and matching your mix quality to that is essential to getting your mixes to translate.

Also you're Mixing 808's Rhodes and Bass which is by definition gonna give you a lot of low mid muddiness. Make sure you're hi-passing the rhodes and making sure the bass and 808's aren't clashing. Sidechain compression on the bass (from the 808s) might be an option.

There's also the option of simply using EQ on the master insert to remove the mud and add some high end. Just don't overdo it on the boosts and cuts.

Thanks I think I may have to go back and re-mix the original sample, bounce and slice in Recycle again (BTW, I wish you could simply substitute the new audio into a pre-chopped Rex file instead of having to re-chop it every time - such a pain!!)

Is this a common problem I'm having? The whole "If it sounds good on monitors it sounds good everywhere" thing is bass-ackwards to me right now.

That theory only works if your monitors/room are fairly flat to being with. That's why some mix rooms are more popular than others - the ideal room is one where you make the mix sound "right" to you, and it works everywhere else. Each person desires a slightly different response to achieve that, which sometimes can take years to work out! I've had the pleasure to work in some extremely nice mix rooms over the years, and it's taught me that mixing is hard enough in a great room (and progressively more difficult the worse the room). That's why I feel it's important to find the best possible monitoring situation as possible, and to be well aware of any limitations beyond that so you can work around them.

In your example I'm hearing a good bit of energy in octaves 3-4, and actually a good bit less in the first two octaves. To me that means you're not using those bottom octaves to their full potential, and over-compensating in the next higher octaves. So I'd approach this mix from two angles: pumping up the lower end a bit, and taming the lower mids a bit. The bottom octave of the Rhodes part, for example, is jumping out to me compared to when it plays the higher octaves. This could be because of an EQ you're adding, or an EQ you NEED to add (a low shelf cut, for example). Or it could be something you're doing in the master?

If you want to get to the bottom of the problem and have a little time to play with, I'd start by removing all EQ and exporting a raw mix and hearing what that sounds like. Could be the mix needs some basic level adjustments before adding EQ etc. Try to make the mix work as well as possible BEFORE changing anything - this approach has made my mixing life much simpler by showing me that getting the basic balances right was a LARGE part of getting the mix right.


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[QVprod]

Are you referencing your CD's through your monitors? You only mentioned your CD's in relation to your car. Knowing what your CD's sound like in your room and matching your mix quality to that is essential to getting your mixes to translate.

Also you're Mixing 808's Rhodes and Bass which is by definition gonna give you a lot of low mid muddiness. Make sure you're hi-passing the rhodes and making sure the bass and 808's aren't clashing. Sidechain compression on the bass (from the 808s) might be an option.

There's also the option of simply using EQ on the master insert to remove the mud and add some high end. Just don't overdo it on the boosts and cuts.

Thanks I think I may have to go back and re-mix the original sample, bounce and slice in Recycle again (BTW, I wish you could simply substitute the new audio into a pre-chopped Rex file instead of having to re-chop it every time - such a pain!!)

Is this a common problem I'm having? The whole "If it sounds good on monitors it sounds good everywhere" thing is bass-ackwards to me right now.

It's a common problem. Whoever said "If it sounds good on monitors it sounds good everywhere" didn't tell you the whole story. Having something sound great on monitors and crappy elsewhere is quite normal if your not using references. Monitors, just like any other kind of speakers, will sound different in any room you place them in. It's important to know how commercially released music sounds on your monitors in your room. From there, that gives you a reference of how to make your mixes translate. Do AB tests on your mixes to commercial tracks to determine if the mix is finished.

[slightlyprog]

I can hear some low mid frequency build-up in there. I'm using Equator D5s. I can hear it in my phones as well (Senn HD540s). My guess is it's in both the rhodes and the bass and the two cross paths now and then and emphasis certain frequencies.

[selig]

Are you referencing your CD's through your monitors? You only mentioned your CD's in relation to your car. Knowing what your CD's sound like in your room and matching your mix quality to that is essential to getting your mixes to translate.

Also you're Mixing 808's Rhodes and Bass which is by definition gonna give you a lot of low mid muddiness. Make sure you're hi-passing the rhodes and making sure the bass and 808's aren't clashing. Sidechain compression on the bass (from the 808s) might be an option.

There's also the option of simply using EQ on the master insert to remove the mud and add some high end. Just don't overdo it on the boosts and cuts.

Thanks I think I may have to go back and re-mix the original sample, bounce and slice in Recycle again (BTW, I wish you could simply substitute the new audio into a pre-chopped Rex file instead of having to re-chop it every time - such a pain!!)

Is this a common problem I'm having? The whole "If it sounds good on monitors it sounds good everywhere" thing is bass-ackwards to me right now.

It's a common problem. Whoever said "If it sounds good on monitors it sounds good everywhere" didn't tell you the whole story. Having something sound great on monitors and crappy elsewhere is quite normal if your not using references. Monitors, just like any other kind of speakers, will sound different in any room you place them in. It's important to know how commercially released music sounds on your monitors in your room. From there, that gives you a reference of how to make your mixes translate. Do AB tests on your mixes to commercial tracks to determine if the mix is finished.

Sometimes I start my mix day by simply listening to a well chosen track or two (5-10 minutes of listening on average). I don't try to "listen" directly, I just put on the music while setting up and getting ready. It helps me "tune in" to the room and sub-consciously adjust my expectations without having to really do any 'work' to achieve the desired results.

This especially works well if you're less familiar with the room your working in, but also is a good idea if you're not getting the desired results from your own room. Just let the music sink in for the first few minutes of your mix day and the results may surprise you!

[skie]

Are you referencing your CD's through your monitors? You only mentioned your CD's in relation to your car. Knowing what your CD's sound like in your room and matching your mix quality to that is essential to getting your mixes to translate.

Also you're Mixing 808's Rhodes and Bass which is by definition gonna give you a lot of low mid muddiness. Make sure you're hi-passing the rhodes and making sure the bass and 808's aren't clashing. Sidechain compression on the bass (from the 808s) might be an option.

There's also the option of simply using EQ on the master insert to remove the mud and add some high end. Just don't overdo it on the boosts and cuts.

Thanks I think I may have to go back and re-mix the original sample, bounce and slice in Recycle again (BTW, I wish you could simply substitute the new audio into a pre-chopped Rex file instead of having to re-chop it every time - such a pain!!)

Is this a common problem I'm having? The whole "If it sounds good on monitors it sounds good everywhere" thing is bass-ackwards to me right now.

It's a common problem. Whoever said "If it sounds good on monitors it sounds good everywhere" didn't tell you the whole story. Having something sound great on monitors and crappy elsewhere is quite normal if your not using references. Monitors, just like any other kind of speakers, will sound different in any room you place them in. It's important to know how commercially released music sounds on your monitors in your room. From there, that gives you a reference of how to make your mixes translate. Do AB tests on your mixes to commercial tracks to determine if the mix is finished.

Sometimes I start my mix day by simply listening to a well chosen track or two (5-10 minutes of listening on average). I don't try to "listen" directly, I just put on the music while setting up and getting ready. It helps me "tune in" to the room and sub-consciously adjust my expectations without having to really do any 'work' to achieve the desired results.

This especially works well if you're less familiar with the room your working in, but also is a good idea if you're not getting the desired results from your own room. Just let the music sink in for the first few minutes of your mix day and the results may surprise you!

Thank you I'm definitely going to do this from now on. I have a lot of effects that I believe are acting on the mid-range so going to strip those back and go from there. Selig - EQ boost on the lower energy octavies would call for a careful, narrow Q I imagine right?...Good call on the boosting the lows but cut the mids going to high pass at around 30 hz and find some ways to cut the mids...FYI no EQ on the master, just some limiting with Ozone IRC 1

[selig]

Are you referencing your CD's through your monitors? You only mentioned your CD's in relation to your car. Knowing what your CD's sound like in your room and matching your mix quality to that is essential to getting your mixes to translate.

Also you're Mixing 808's Rhodes and Bass which is by definition gonna give you a lot of low mid muddiness. Make sure you're hi-passing the rhodes and making sure the bass and 808's aren't clashing. Sidechain compression on the bass (from the 808s) might be an option.

There's also the option of simply using EQ on the master insert to remove the mud and add some high end. Just don't overdo it on the boosts and cuts.

Thanks I think I may have to go back and re-mix the original sample, bounce and slice in Recycle again (BTW, I wish you could simply substitute the new audio into a pre-chopped Rex file instead of having to re-chop it every time - such a pain!!)

Is this a common problem I'm having? The whole "If it sounds good on monitors it sounds good everywhere" thing is bass-ackwards to me right now.

It's a common problem. Whoever said "If it sounds good on monitors it sounds good everywhere" didn't tell you the whole story. Having something sound great on monitors and crappy elsewhere is quite normal if your not using references. Monitors, just like any other kind of speakers, will sound different in any room you place them in. It's important to know how commercially released music sounds on your monitors in your room. From there, that gives you a reference of how to make your mixes translate. Do AB tests on your mixes to commercial tracks to determine if the mix is finished.

Sometimes I start my mix day by simply listening to a well chosen track or two (5-10 minutes of listening on average). I don't try to "listen" directly, I just put on the music while setting up and getting ready. It helps me "tune in" to the room and sub-consciously adjust my expectations without having to really do any 'work' to achieve the desired results.

This especially works well if you're less familiar with the room your working in, but also is a good idea if you're not getting the desired results from your own room. Just let the music sink in for the first few minutes of your mix day and the results may surprise you!

Thank you I'm definitely going to do this from now on. I have a lot of effects that I believe are acting on the mid-range so going to strip those back and go from there. Selig - EQ boost on the lower energy octavies would call for a careful, narrow Q I imagine right?...Good call on the boosting the lows but cut the mids going to high pass at around 30 hz and find some ways to cut the mids...FYI no EQ on the master, just some limiting with Ozone IRC 1

First place to start is with the arrangement, next with the choice of sounds, then possibly with the performance dynamics (how hard/loud are certain notes being played). Then I work with basic mix balances as much as possible, also adjusting any of the previously mentioned attributes as I go if necessary. From there I may do some general cleaning with filters/EQ, and finally after things have progressed as far as possible on their own, I'll starting considering dynamics/EQ/saturation effects - but only after exhausting other simpler solution.

As for addressing the EQ issues, I'd start with broad strokes. For the Rhodes you can either try a low cut (high pass) filter (but it may be too extreme), or more likely a simple low shelf EQ cut. It may only take a few dB to get things in balance.

Extreme surgical EQ is only required when very narrow bands are in question. Smoother EQ curves will almost always be more transparent, so that's why I'll tend to start there. I try to get the most effective results with the least amount of processing, for many reasons: to save CPU, to speed up the creative process (and not get bogged down), to color the sound less, to make it easier to re-visit the track in the future if need be, etc.



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[Bonkhead]

I haven't read all the other posts but first thing that comes in mind is, do A/B'ing in the studio with tracks that do sound good in your car.

We even have a great free Re for that:
https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/ ... ts-switch/

[Raveshaper]

I'm using audio out from my 2012 Retina and a pair of Samsung earbuds to listen to this and what I'm hearing is a couple of things.

First thing I'm hearing is some distortion because of the track level being a bit too hot. That could be a result of the compression applied on SoundCloud, but not usually. I would bring down the level by 1 or 2 dB, but even then you would only need to do this for certain instruments that sit in the same frequency range. To sum it up, I hear that you bass, rhodes, and kick are overlapping a bit too much. So EQ and subtle side-chaining are your friends here.

Second thing I'm hearing is that your kick might not be tuned to the fundamental of the key your track is written in. This is a small thing, but it makes a lot of difference in the final sound. It's why the Nicky Romero "Kick" plugin is so popular. Basically, you want your kick to be aligned to the harmonics in your song so that it doesn't create destructive interference and make a mud puddle near the bottom of the frequency range. So finetune the pitch so that it closely matches the key of the track. You don't have to retune it to every bass note, just the key of the song.

Last thoughts would be to figure out what priority those 3 sound sources have in your mix; the bass guitar, rhodes, and kick. The kick is most likely going to be on top of the other two, so you would want to use it to sidechain the others by differing amounts, but you can also emphasize certain frequencies in both the rhodes and the bass guitar to differentiate them further. I think what you need to do is tighten up using some surgical EQ and high-pass/low-pass to separate those instruments a bit more. Overall it sounds very good and may only be suffering from too high of a track level.

The last word is about car stereo construction. If your mix sounds bad, I'm not surprised. Take a look at this.


That's a VW Jetta door speaker. Take a speaker and screw it down to a large metal sheet that basically acts like the sounding board of a piano. What do you get? Vibrations. Lots of them. Even with a lot of expensive work on a custom setup, the panels of cars are designed to move (doors, hood, hatch) so there will always be problems from standing waves. So, while a car will make those problem frequencies leap out at you faster than other situations, don't take it too personally when they do. It's only when other music doesn't do that and yours does (like you mentioned) that there's work to be done.

[skie]

Thanks for all the tips everyone. I took a lot of the above advice, re-mixed the sample, and I think I'm close to as un-muddy as it's gonna get while leaving it as a sample-based track and playing the chops in nnxt. I routed a few chops to their own mix channel to even out the dynamics more on the verses but Im gonna work on it more tomorrow - haven't listened to this version in my car yet (yikes) but here's what i got so far, thanks again i've learned a lot trying to mix this dang track. Samples are hard they're like puzzles!

[submonsterz]

Thanks for all the tips everyone. I took a lot of the above advice, re-mixed the sample, and I think I'm close to as un-muddy as it's gonna get while leaving it as a sample-based track and playing the chops in nnxt. I routed a few chops to their own mix channel to even out the dynamics more on the verses but Im gonna work on it more tomorrow - haven't listened to this version in my car yet (yikes) but here's what i got so far, thanks again i've learned a lot trying to mix this dang track. Samples are hard they're like puzzles!

I just listened on a mobile a samsung galaxy 5 . I think youll hear whats needed by grabbing one and listening on its speaker is this what your hearing in car speakers ??.
Rhodes sounds really bad on mobile here.

[skie]

Interesting...which part? Do you mean in the intro? just listened on my Galaxy Avant and the rhodes was too aggressive on the intro sample but actually sounded kinda alright on the verse? Could even hear some mids from the electric bass...interested in what you heard. Thanks!

[ravisoni]

I didn't read through every single reply here, but if it hasn't already been clear with the first few replies, I, too, strongly recommend using reference mixes (songs that you find sound good and pretty much the same as the track you're working on). Listen to both your track and the reference in the car as well as in your room. Should help you troubleshoot the offending frequencies.

[RequiemMachine]

I def hear some improvement between the first mix and this latest. Something I tend to do with elements that share the same area in a mix like your bass and Rhodes here..is to go into the mix with a goal of putting one of them above or below the other frequency-wise and eq/filter accordingly. This is usually how I clean up my lows and low-mids. A also sweep through the instrument track with an eq to find the offending frequencies and notch them out (i basically make a notch boost and then sweep it through the frequencies until I find the nastiness I don't want then reverse it to a cut and adjust q to taste)

[Koncide]

I, too, strongly recommend using reference mixes.

Thirded.

My tunes were dreadful until I figured this out.

It's amazing how poor your own ears can be when trying to be objective. Using a reference track to quickly A/B is probably the most effective way to combat this. No problems with subjectivity then. Your track either has tonal similarities with the reference, or it does not. This is easy unless you're deaf.

The tricky part is picking the right reference track. You need something in the same genre with a lot of similar musical ideas going on. You need to compare apples to apples else there's no point.

[Kaosis]

Not sure what year jetta your rocking, but I had an mkiv for a while and low-mid (high-lows) resonance in that car was insane. So if there's any mud in that region of your mix it flares out badly in that car.